Why can the Byzantines respawn?

[ace99]

Can't you do what SOI does and make the Byzantine re-spawn conditional for the AI, so they respawn when Rome or Greece is unstable, but when the human is playing they Byzantines always spawn.

 

[Pavel Chichikov]

I don't think timed respawns at very specific dates are a good idea; resurgences happened because of a variety and combinations of factors, not because of some mythical force manifesting itself in 1000 or 1150. We're playing a game that is simulating the dynamics of history; not repeating history itself.

What I mean is we should go back to the old respawn mechanics, i.e.: it could happen anytime if the occupying nation is shaky or unstable - without requiring nationalism though. And I stick to it that the byzantines should be represented by a greek respawn, should it happen (like rome being shaky or greek areas being indeps or barbarians).

I don't think it matters to much if a greek respawn has an obsolete uu or up. As far as the AI is concerned, the impact is generally minor.

I absolutely agree, but to actually implement what you're saying would need a redesign of the entire mod from it's foundations.

I have though of a RFC mod where every spawn would be conditional, allowing for situations where if you win the Punic Wars as Carthage, Europe could spawn a bunch of Celtic Civilizations and hypothetical Syriac ones... what religion founded would be dependent on what Civ found the technology first ect.
....but it's just a dream, I can't mod.

 

[Locutus_Morti]

Byzantium was not Greece. They have already been added, they do not need to be removed. I enjoy playing with them. I simply want them to stop respawning.

 

[Lone Wolf]

What I meant is that the civ itself is redundant in the first place as it is not a distinct culture from other civs already in the game (greek with roman hats, as someone said).

Same with Prussia-HRE (or even Arabs-Moors. tho' I prefer 1.9) - there's even less distinction here. DoC civs don't operate only according to this principle. Prussia and HRE need to perform different historical functions and give lip service to German disunity, that's why they're separated.

 

[Barbuesque]

Same with Prussia-HRE (or even Arabs-Moors. tho' I prefer 1.9) - there's even less distinction here. DoC civs don't operate only according to this principle. Prussia and HRE need to perform different historical functions and give lip service to German disunity, that's why they're separated.

I agree with your examples. There's already a respawn mechanic to simulate resurgences from conquered civs, and at the same time we have civs that are direct successor states (moors, prussia, byzantium), so it's a bit redundant to me. Also, 1.10 is severely out of balance in regard to uhvs compared to 1.9, to the point that some civs are barely playable anymore. At the same time, all the new civs do add flavor, which is fun.

 

[Lone Wolf]

"Resurgence" and "successor state" is a bit different. You can't really represent Byzantium or Prussia though respawn (problematic in first case, impossible with the second). There're enough Byzantinophiles on the strategy game fora, and we do need some lip service to German disunity.

Basically, some pseudo-resurgencies were decided to be distinct and important enough in their own right.

See also Mughals-India.

 

[Barbuesque]

"Resurgence" and "successor state" is a bit different.
Basically, some pseudo-resurgencies were decided to be distinct and important enough in their own right.

See also Mughals-India.

All resurgencies were distinct from each other, so I guess I'll stick to what I said before: the respawn mechanic handles that pretty well.

I see the mughals-india thing as a bit different. The cultural differences in india seem more profound to me than your other examples. But, considering that it was more or less a follow up of Timur's conquests, I think it should be a conditional spawn, perhaps India being shaky or unstable.

 

[ace99]

Could make the Mughal spawn more historical by having them spawn in Afghanistan, flip modern Pakistan and have to conquer Delhi and and their capital moves there when they take it, like the Ottomans and Istanbul basically.

It would be better than basically handing them the entire Indo-Gangetic plain on a platter like now.

 

[Hightower]

Could make the Mughal spawn more historical by having them spawn in Afghanistan, flip modern Pakistan and have to conquer Delhi and and their capital moves there when they take it, like the Ottomans and Istanbul basically.

It would be better than basically handing them the entire Indo-Gangetic plain on a platter like now.

You'd have to give them a larger starting army, then. It's hard enough to get the 12 cities necessary for the first UHV in time now. Also, then the human player's capital would always be in Qandahar. Could have them start with just Delhi and Peshawar, though, and not flip Azimabad/Patna.

 

[Lone Wolf]

All resurgencies were distinct from each other, so I guess I'll stick to what I said before: the respawn mechanic handles that pretty well.

Some are more distinct then others, and serve very different gameplay functions. And respawn mechanics would work for Byzantium, Prussia and Moors fairly badly. There's a reason why original RFC rarely sees a Byzantine-like Greek respawn or a Prussia-like Germany respawn. It's like starting a campaign to represent the USA by removing their civ, stating that the Independent Cities/Stability mechanics is good enough. After all, we already have a secession mechanics, why have a scripted one? The answer, of course, is that Independent Cities would not represent the phenomena that is the USA with an acceptable amount of historical flavour which is worthy being represented.

Thailand (well, and the Seljuks) is the only civilization I don't like much - its culture is not that similar to Cambodia, but their gameplay is really too similar.

 

[Wondering Kid]

I wasn't even aware they could re-spawn... Although today I saw Austria (former HRE) come back from the dead and after a while, be vassaled (read annexed) by Germany/Prussia.

...All I need now is for them to have the urge to try Totalitarianism and for Poland to become independent...