Why can't Mexico not do the same as China?

[Desmond Hawkins]

Mexico is twice as rich as China. The aptly named "catch-up" effect says that China will grow faster than Mexico while catching up.

 

[Perfection]

If you only knew...

Corruption IS a way of life here. But surprisingly, it doesn't go in the way of progress, unlike other countries.

Officials here are always on the edge, corrupt or not. They need to have something to show to their superiors in order to not get sacked. They need to have good relations with their peers, to guard against a jealous rival stabbing them in the back. And they need to take care of their subordinates and their subjects the common people, less these go over his head and complain to the next higher bureaucratic level.

These gives undue stress to officials, but ensures that whatever corruption there is won't be overdone, and that some good will be done.

I think pretty much every government has a fair amount of corruption, especially at local levels. I mean my own local government got pretty much sacked for thier abuse of thier right to buyout property from unwilling landowners.

 

[BrutalGodProjek]

Mexico is twice as rich as China. The aptly named "catch-up" effect says that China will grow faster than Mexico while catching up.

Really? WOW. I think I remember hearing that Mexico was one of the richest countries south of America. I'm not sure who is the richest, but I know the poorest country south of america is Haiti. If only the politicians would just ****en stop and help their people...damn these bastards.

 

[amadeus]

America was poor once, too, but nobody stepped in to help us. We helped ourselves.

If we give them what they need now, why later would they want to change it?

 

[Drewcifer]

I don't know China well enough to make comparisons but I have known hundreds of Mexicans well in the last 15 years. I think that a big part of what holds Mexico back is the way the rich and the political elite have set up the system to perpetuate their own interests at the expense of the good of the nation as a whole. I think the biggest two problem areas are with corruption and the mess of the education system. For example: I don't know if it is still true but at one time the government provided free college education to those who could make it into college while large segments of society only got a rudimentary education, this was a giveaway to elite at the expense of the general education of the nation.

Most of my friends from Mexico have funny stories about the first time they were stopped by traffic police in the US, most tried to bribe the police without even thinking twice about it. Fortunately for them most of the police in Minnesota know what the Mexican police are like and just tell them to put away their money. But the fact that this sort of corruption is endemic throughout Mexican society means that roads are more exensive to build, government services are more expensive to deliver, etc.; it is in effect a secret tax that is put on the shoulders of the average Mexican. And when the people start questioning their government the elite just wraps themselves in nationalism and anti-Americanism to distract the people.

But anyway, according to the Economist Mexico's per capita GDP is triple that of China and now the highest in Latin America (with the collapse of Argentina). It is not all that far behind Greece and Portugal. I think the main problem is with how income is distributed.

 

[amadeus]

Actually, wouldn't Chile be higher than Mexico now?

 

[amadeus]

CIA data:

Uruguay: $12,800
Argentina: $11,200
Chile: $9,900
Costa Rica: $9,100

Mexico: $9,000

If you're going to count small states, you could also add Bermuda ($36,000) and the Cayman Islands ($35,000.)

 

[Dann]

... I think that a big part of what holds Mexico back is the way the rich and the political elite have set up the system to perpetuate their own interests at the expense of the good of the nation as a whole. I think the biggest two problem areas are with corruption and the mess of the education system. For example: I don't know if it is still true but at one time the government provided free college education to those who could make it into college while large segments of society only got a rudimentary education, this was a giveaway to elite at the expense of the general education of the nation.

Most of my friends from Mexico have funny stories about the first time they were stopped by traffic police in the US, most tried to bribe the police without even thinking twice about it. Fortunately for them most of the police in Minnesota know what the Mexican police are like and just tell them to put away their money. But the fact that this sort of corruption is endemic throughout Mexican society means that roads are more exensive to build, government services are more expensive to deliver, etc.; it is in effect a secret tax that is put on the shoulders of the average Mexican. And when the people start questioning their government the elite just wraps themselves in nationalism and anti-Americanism to distract the people.

But anyway, according to the Economist Mexico's per capita GDP is triple that of China and now the highest in Latin America (with the collapse of Argentina). It is not all that far behind Greece and Portugal. I think the main problem is with how income is distributed.

This just proves it. Except for the nationalism and anti-Americanism, you just basically described my home country too.

Seems we're stuck in the same rut.

 

[Drewcifer]

CIA data:

Uruguay: $12,800
Argentina: $11,200
Chile: $9,900
Costa Rica: $9,100

Mexico: $9,000

If you're going to count small states, you could also add Bermuda ($36,000) and the Cayman Islands ($35,000.)

I may be wrong but I believe that the CIA bases their numbers on exchange rates while the Economist bases it on purchasing power parity based on a basket of goods.

Looking at the Economist's "World in 2005":

Uruguay: Not Listed
Argentina: $3,800
Chile: $6,180
Costa Rica: Not Listed
Mexico: $6,300
Brazil: $3,200

Neither Bermuda, the Bahamas nor the Caymen Islands are part of Latin America. Mexico is farther behind Greece and Portugal than I thought but ahead of Turkey:

Greece: $20.210
Portugal: $17,680
Turkey: $4,150

China: $1,360

 

[Uiler]

Doesn't the Economist base their figures on the idea of an American going to said country and buying the exact same goods (including brands)? I remember this argument over the Economist's saying Tokyo and Osaka being the most expensive cities in the world and people say they are pretty expensive but if you buy Japanese food and Japanese goods rather than the Economist's assumption of buying American brands things are much cheaper than what the Economist says.

In a way though it doesn't matter what the average rating for China is. China is so huge that a small affluent % can still be a huge market. Likewise it's huge population means that even if its per capita rating is low its overall economy (and hence impact on the world economy) can still be massive. This can also apply to India.

I may be wrong but I believe that the CIA bases their numbers on exchange rates while the Economist bases it on purchasing power parity based on a basket of goods.

Looking at the Economist's "World in 2005":

Uruguay: Not Listed
Argentina: $3,800
Chile: $6,180
Costa Rica: Not Listed
Mexico: $6,300
Brazil: $3,200

Neither Bermuda, the Bahamas nor the Caymen Islands are part of Latin America. Mexico is farther behind Greece and Portugal than I thought but ahead of Turkey:

Greece: $20.210
Portugal: $17,680
Turkey: $4,150

China: $1,360

 

[Drewcifer]

Doesn't the Economist base their figures on the idea of an American going to said country and buying the exact same goods (including brands)? I remember this argument over the Economist's saying Tokyo and Osaka being the most expensive cities in the world and people say they are pretty expensive but if you buy Japanese food and Japanese goods rather than the Economist's assumption of buying American brands things are much cheaper than what the Economist says.

In a way though it doesn't matter what the average rating for China is. China is so huge that a small affluent % can still be a huge market. Likewise it's huge population means that even if its per capita rating is low its overall economy (and hence impact on the world economy) can still be massive. This can also apply to India.

Yes and no. They have one index based on the price of a Big Mac, the one they normally use for per capita income comparisons is based on a basket of good needed for a working class lifestyle IIRC and is not based on any particular country.

The lifestyle in Shanghai means nothing to those in the interior if you want to compare countries. Also if you want to play that game there is a huge difference between Monterrey and Oaxaca. Monterrey is sniffing at the first world while the south may as well be Bolivia.

 

[ShiplordAtvar]

Like Jeff had mentioned, China has something most 3rd World nations don't - a large, affluent diaspora - the Overseas Chinese - who're still somewhat attached to their ancestral homeland. They form the largest bloc of foreign investors on the mainland - Taiwanese, Hong Kongers, SE Asian Chinese tycoons etc.

There is a very large Mexican diaspora. It's called damn near every state in the Union.

They may not all be wealthy, but they send assloads of money back to Mexico.

And a lot of them are still royally pissed off at Whitey (the USA) for taking the American southwest from them through force/intimidation/favorable-to-the-USA treaties, etc. They're trying to take it back by flooding the area.

Why do so many Mexicans come to the US to work? Because we're too damn lazy to cut our own grass, work in construction, janitorial positions, etc.

It sure helps keep prices down when you've got millions of Mexicans working for cut-rate wages so (a) they have a lower chance of getting deported (won't ever happen - Bush is too damned eager to give a general amnesty) and (b) they can have some money to send back to Mexico. An interesting thing to consider is that if a Mexican works in the US for half of minimum wage (1/2 of $5.15, or $2.575 per hour), that's still waaay better than what he could make in most jobs back in Mexico.

 

[ShiplordAtvar]

The Chinese are basically stuck in China, Mexicans can sneak up into the USA.

Chinese people sneak into the USA too. They just have to be stowaways in cargo containers. There's plenty of illegals coming in through ports.

 

[ShiplordAtvar]

Isn't Mexico a part of OPEC? If so, then they already are major part of the international community.

Negative. The members of OPEC are Algeria, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Libya, Nigeria, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Venezuela.

 

[Drewcifer]

There is a very large Mexican diaspora. It's called damn near every state in the Union.

They may not all be wealthy, but they send assloads of money back to Mexico.

And a lot of them are still royally pissed off at Whitey (the USA) for taking the American southwest from them through force/intimidation/favorable-to-the-USA treaties, etc. They're trying to take it back by flooding the area.

I would say that this is untrue (though like all immigrants they do send tons of money back). Most of the Mexicans I have met are probably amongst the most motivated and entepeneurial of their nation. More likely they are those who would have higher jobs in their society but can make more money doing menial jobs in the US and many eventually work their way above that, I have worked for Mexicans. The inner city in south Minneapolis (Lake Street) was an empty shell slum 15 years ago before Mexicans arrived. The only businesses that existed were bars and storefront brothels, most buildings were abandoned. Now the brothels and crack dens are mostly gone and it is generally a vibrant, safe, and very alive commercial district, with a fair amount of new construction that was unheard of before! It was accomplished mostly by Mexican immigrant entepenurialism. Mexican immigrants turned south Minneapolis around and rebuilt the commercial tax base there. There may be some Aztlan seperatists but most would prefer to take the system they see here and export it back to Mexico. Perhaps it exists in different versions in different parts of the US or perhaps you are just seeing what you were raised to see.

 

[Uiler]

One possible reason for Chinese dealing with corruption better in government is that corruption and nepotism have been entrenched in Chinese governments for thousands of years. Corruption is the norm. It is possible that they've managed to work a way to maintain a decent government with the corruption (as long as it doesn't get too out of hand). Chinese may simply have lived with corruption so long that (1) Everyone knows how to "work" the game. (2) People don't get too demoralised but simply accept it.

Confucian ethics go some way to act against corruption, esp. nepotism. Also the surest way to win public approval for a political career is to present yourself as anti-corruption (the mythical anti-corruption crusading official...) so some people may try to hold corruption in check to further their political careers. They'll never be able to touch the highest ranks but crusaders looking for public popularitiy may be able to keep corruption in check in the lower and middle ranks. The highest ranks allow this to happen to keep the public distracted from their own misdeeds. So there are periodical clean-ups of the lower and middle ranks. Also as others mention, Chinese officials are a bunch of back-stabbing rats. Chinese are eccessively polite to each other when talking to each other but once your back is turned they'd stab you in the back with no mercy. Not to mention they are extremely status aware and perfectly capable of ruining an opponent out of sheer jealousy. Chinese officials are always conniving against each other. If you let your corruption go too far your opponent *will* use this against you. The idea is to be corrupt but not be *too* corrupt (or to be too obvious about it). These things weed out the worse offenders (or at least the most stupid ones).

 

[BrutalGodProjek]

Yeah, I know the corruption is ridiculous. Also, kidnappings there are ridiculously constant. No wonder most mexican celebrities live in the U.S to protect themselves. Also, from what I understand Mexico has HUGE oil reserves yet they arent using them...why?

 

[Sims2789]

The Chinese are basically stuck in China, Mexicans can sneak up into the USA.

What does this have to do with anything?

 

[amadeus]

Sims, it has to do with everything. They don't have to build up their own country when there's better opportunities just a few hundred miles to their north. Combine that with Mexico's dismal PRI dictatorship until a few years ago, with the legacy of political corruption and economic mismanagement still carrying on.

If I wanted to go even deeper into the curve, I could say that there's a cultural factor, where the Chinese could be considered traditionally more geared towards education and efficiency where Mexicans...well, really aren't. If they did, they'd probably be doing it.

Look at Nigeria or Pakistan. Why couldn't they do the same thing? They've got the same, if not better, availible resources.


Drew, the CIA does use PPP in their GDP/capita figures.

Notes and definitions from the CIA World Factbook.

 

[allhailIndia]

I don't think it is valid trying to compare Mexico and China...too many socio-political and economic differences to make any comparisions valid.

I think Mexico is better off setting its own goals and reaching them, without worrying about how well another country at the other end of the world managed to do it. Going by some of the posts I have read here, the first goal should be to try and improve governance, cut down corruption and make the rulers more accountable to the people. I am not an expert on Mexican affairs to instantly say how, but I suppose there are enough people left who care about such things and provide better answers. Another answer may be to make more efficient use of the Mexican migrants in the US, those who have established themselves in that country, by encouraging them to re-invest in their own country and to try and entice the professionals to return home. India ( I am not sure about China) is benefiting in a limited way from having all those y2k techies returning from the US to India, not to mention the doctors and engineers from UK and other parts of the world. Eventually they will contribute towards to the general improvement of civil society, and not just their employers back in INdia, because they have seen what the West has achieved and want India to be able to do the same. I suppose this could be a driving factor for a country with a large diaspora like Mexico or for that matter Phillippines.