Why Should the security of Ukraine cause the U.S. government to shut down?

[FriendlyFire]

Optimistically, they would mean the end of war, the return of the occupied territories by Russia (apart from Crimea, which seems like a lost cause; I feel like after the conflict few would be inclined to), a guarantee of Russian minorities' rights (aka what was proposed in Minsk II) and neutrality of Ukraine.

I give you a guess which Country kept Violating the Minsk accords by seizing more Ukrainian territory every year until 2019
Why anyone with more than 2 brain cells would trust Putin with any new treaty is beyond me

It will take a lot more war exhaustion, casualties before there can be any real negosiations

 

[Akka]

Tankies, dripping in condescendance with their lecturing about morality while supporting invasions, war crimes and authoritarian dictatorship.
Cognitive dissonance and mindless fanaticism is a hell of a combination.

 

[Colonel]

Political in-fighting would exist without the Ukraine issue. The Far right has just latched onto this because it is an easy target. If it wasn't this it would be some Government policy they don't like, this is political theater at the cost of the American people. As someone about to go without a pay check in 2 weeks because of this nonsense I would encourage anyone with the legal ability to vote against these members in the future. They don't want to govern, they simply want to burn the government down be damned who it may harm.

 

[Zardnaar]

Tankies, dripping in condescendance with their lecturing about morality while supporting invasions, war crimes and authoritarian dictatorship.
Cognitive dissonance and mindless fanaticism is a hell of a combination.

Anyone advocating political violence when one has peaceful options to remove said government doesn't really have a strong moral code.

 

[Lexicus]

Shutdown averted for now? Status of next bit of Ukraine aid unclear

 

[Gori the Grey]

If the Rs managed to pry out Ukraine aid, then it's the exact scenario the OP formulated.

 

[Joij21]

Political in-fighting would exist without the Ukraine issue. The Far right has just latched onto this because it is an easy target. If it wasn't this it would be some Government policy they don't like, this is political theater at the cost of the American people. As someone about to go without a pay check in 2 weeks because of this nonsense I would encourage anyone with the legal ability to vote against these members in the future. They don't want to govern, they simply want to burn the government down be damned who it may harm.

Eh, I don't believe in voting anymore. This country is long dead, there will be more pressing matters to concern oneself about than mere paychecks (such as finding food in a dead and dieing world).

 

[pecheneg]

I give you a guess which Country kept Violating the Minsk accords by seizing more Ukrainian territory every year until 2019

You will please the Russian, who regularly read the Ukrainian press even before 2014, with the details of this outrage? Otherwise, the Ukrainians were very proud of the fact that they were able to "toad jumps" (c) to push the Russians back on the next section of the contact line.
Or are you talking about 2015, when Ukrainians bravely and very publicly declared the need to "kick in the teeth", sharply intensified the shelling and and received the offensive of the republics of Donbass in response? Then I would like to hear what exactly the Russians seized from the Ukrainians after 2015.

 

[Gorbles]

of the republics of Donbass

* the internationally-unrecognised DPR, created by Russian-backed forces. You can also throw the LPR in there as well.

Sorry, you seem to be correcting folks, so, y'know.

 

[pecheneg]

internationally-unrecognised DPR, created by Russian-backed forces. You can also throw the LPR in there as well.

Do I understand correctly that from your point of view, the lack of international recognition of the republics as independent states allowed Ukraine to do anything and violate any agreements?
And the same Serbs in Kosovo were not allowed?
Is this the "rules-based order"?
The real problem is that in international law there is such a subject as a struggling nation. Agreements with which it is necessary to observe. So, suddenly, the Minsk agreements were approved at the UN and Donbass is a recognized party to the conflict in them.

 

[Gorbles]

Do I understand correctly that from your point of view, the lack of international recognition of the republics as independent states allowed Ukraine to do anything and violate any agreements?

No, I was simply injecting some context into your own contextual efforts. Am I being inaccurate?

And the same Serbs in Kosovo were not allowed?

I wasn't talking about the Serbs, but I don't recommend carrying goalposts without someone to help lift the other end.

 

[pecheneg]

No,

You see what a wonderful agreement we have reached.

 

[Gorbles]

what a wonderful agreement we have reached.

Doubtful! I'm just not interested in words being put in my mouth.

 

[FriendlyFire]

You will please the Russian, who regularly read the Ukrainian press even before 2014, with the details of this outrage? Otherwise, the Ukrainians were very proud of the fact that they were able to "toad jumps" (c) to push the Russians back on the next section of the contact line.
Or are you talking about 2015, when Ukrainians bravely and very publicly declared the need to "kick in the teeth", sharply intensified the shelling and and received the offensive of the republics of Donbass in response? Then I would like to hear what exactly the Russians seized from the Ukrainians after 2015.

Have you not tried google ?

By January 2015, the Minsk Protocol ceasefire had completely collapsed.[24] Following the separatist victory at Donetsk International Airport in defiance of the Protocol, DPR spokesman Eduard Basurin said that "the Minsk Memorandum will not be considered in the form it was adopted".[25] Later in the day, DPR leader Alexander Zakharchenko said that the DPR "will not make any attempts at ceasefire talks any more", and that his forces were going to "attack right up to the borders of Donetsk region".[26] The New York Times said that the ceasefire had "all but vanished".[27]

By 16 February, Minsk II seemed on the verge of collapse.[54][55] Separatists continued a heavy assault on Debaltseve.

 

[red_elk]

Have you not tried google ?

As since we have our usual quote cherry-picking contest, I have other parts boldened for you.

The agreement failed to stop fighting,[5] and was thus followed with a revised and updated agreement, Minsk II, which was signed on 12 February 2015.[6] This agreement consisted of a package of measures, including a ceasefire, withdrawal of heavy weapons from the front line, release of prisoners of war, constitutional reform in Ukraine granting self-government to certain areas of Donbas and restoring control of the state border to the Ukrainian government. While fighting subsided following the agreement's signing, it never ended completely, and the agreement's provisions were never fully implemented.

 

[pecheneg]

Have you not tried google ? By January 2015,

That is, this statement was the fruit of your rich imagination.

I give you a guess which Country kept Violating the Minsk accords by seizing more Ukrainian territory every year until 2019

By the way, a little below I will lay out the real situation with the Ukrainian seizures according to the Ukrainian media.

About 2015, it was said above. And alas, the belligerent cries of Kiev, eager for revenge, were more than public. At the same time, at the time of the conclusion of Minsk-2, Ukrainians in Debaltseve had already cut off supplies and were offered to get out of the encirclement, leaving heavy weapons. The fact that Minsk-2 provided for the preservation of Debaltseve for Ukraine, which was already behind the front line, is an exclusively original interpretation of the Ukrainian side.

Now about reality. And so that there are no screams - this is Putin's propaganda. Here is a link to the Ukrainian media, from December 2018.

«Серая» зона на Донбассе взята под контроль украинских защитников - Бирюков - Пресса Украины

Юрий Бирюков заявил, что в этом году ВСУ, которые защищают Украину от агрессии России, сумели взять под контроль всю так называемую «серую» зону на Донбассе. Ранее амбициозную задачу - очистить Донбасс от «серых» зон - давал Виктор Муженко.

uapress.info

Ukrainians occupy a demilitarized (in accordance with the agreements) zone in accordance with the strategy publicly announced by the General Staff and are very proud of it. In total, in 2018, they captured 15 square kilometers, including one notable settlement - and it was a miserable start. For example, Maryinka was in the demilitarized zone, but was captured by the APU the following year. What can be perfectly learned from the same Ukrainian publications. In general, the stupid Russians , have withdrawn their troops, and the smart and cunning Ukrainians... heroically won some funny pieces of paper.

"Yuriy Biryukov said that this year the Ukrainian Armed Forces, which protect Ukraine from Russian aggression, managed to take control of the entire so-called "gray" zone in the Donbas.
Earlier, Viktor Muzhenko gave an ambitious task – to clear Donbass of "gray" zones.
Freelance adviser to the President of Ukraine, Assistant Minister of Defense Yuriy Biryukov spoke on one of the Ukrainian TV channels. He made an important statement, noting that the AFU took control of the entire "gray" zone in the area of hostilities in the Donbas. "Two-thirds of the territory has been liberated from the state in which we started in May 2014. Almost the entire "gray zone" has been liberated and taken under control," he stressed.
Recall that on April 30 of this year, the Anti-Terrorist Operation (ATO) ended in Ukraine and the operation of the United Forces started. With its beginning, villages and towns that entered the combat zone, the zone adjacent to the combat zone and the safe zone were identified. The permanent commander of the OOS was Lieutenant General Sergei Naev, who was also instructed by the President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko to lead the Armed Forces of Ukraine, the SBU, the police, the National Guard and border guards.
By the way, this summer, the Chief of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine Viktor Muzhenko made a loud statement, noting that there should be no so-called "gray" zones in the Donbas".

 

[pecheneg]

Have you not tried google ? By January 2015, the Minsk Protocol ceasefire had completely collapsed.

By the way, please explain what prompted you to post this phrase as a powerful argument. You think that...

1. The Russians were not satisfied with the Minsk-1 written by them, but they decided out of pure masochism to wait until the Ukrainians strengthen Debaltseve and the entire front line?

2. Ukrainians were satisfied with Minsk-1?

 

[Birdjaguar]

Senate is voting now and it looks like a 45 day window will pass before midnight.

 

[pecheneg]

I give you a guess which Country kept Violating the Minsk accords by seizing more Ukrainian territory every year

By the way, about Marinka and 15 kilometers - the data is borrowed from this Ukrainian source. The Ukrainian edition " "Apostrophe", June 2019, carefully describes the successes of the Ukrainian troops

"Дискотека" у Мар'їнці: навіщо українська армія захоплює "сіру зону"

ВСУ зайняли нові позиції під Донецьком, щоб поліпшити своє тактичне положення

apostrophe.ua

"The consolidation of a separate mechanized brigade named after King Daniel (Prince Daniel Galitsky — ed.) in the "gray" Marinka began about a month ago. Then the royal infantrymen quietly entered the city and dug in, pushing the defense line 600 meters in the direction of occupied Donetsk. "Ukrainian infantrymen carried out daily engineering retrofitting of positions, their strengthening and development. Now, in the direction of the occupied village of Alexandrovka, full—fledged strongholds of units have been erected by the infantry forces," the headquarters of the OOS noted. Now the positions of the Ukrainian military and the occupied capital of Donbass are separated only by a thin ribbon of the Osykovaya River.
It is worth noting that the advance of the APU deep into the "gray zone" did not begin with Maryinka. For example, in early June, reports appeared in the media about the fighters of the 79th airborne assault brigade taking control of the height "Daring" near the village of Pikuzi (the old name of Kominternovo) near Mariupol. Militants settled in this area, but the Ukrainian military knocked out the terrorists, taking a more advantageous position. And in November last year, the AFU regained control over the village of Seating in the Donetsk region. In total, over the past year, since the start of the joint forces operation, according to the press center of the headquarters of the OOS, the Ukrainian military took control of more than 15 square kilometers of the "gray zone".

And enchanting, about aggressive Russians who are dissatisfied with such trifles.

"Such an advance may become a reason for Russian mercenaries to freeze the negotiations in Minsk. Formal, but still a reason. "Tactically, everything happened correctly. And at the strategic level, now Leonid Kuchma will be told at the trilateral contact group that there were promises not to move anywhere, but in reality otherwise."

 

[Zardnaar]

Doesn't really matter post 2014 since Rissa violated it's guarantees from 1994 (iirc?).

Once they did that in 2014 everything afterwards ultimately is Russias fault.