from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!
- Feb 20, 2013
- Klass County, Washington
Worst than this? War is ugly business and measuring the pain it causes is hardly a calculation easily made. There are degrees of atrociousness for sure, but total destruction of cities is pretty nasty.
I will spare you the images of deformed Iraqi children and instead give you this report by the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists.
Then, of course, there's the firing of DU shells into civilian areas, which peace groups have reported allll the way back in 2014. Once again, I ask: Is this what you want for Ukraine? As poison and radiation does not, in fact, differentiate in terms of ethnicity, as far as I'm aware.
Tell me what those negotiations could look like.
And it's a lie that Ukraine desires negotiations. They are very determined to retake their land.
edit; And Russia also doesn't desire those.
Where did you get that from?
Optimistically, they would mean the end of war, the return of the occupied territories by Russia (apart from Crimea, which seems like a lost cause; I feel like after the conflict few would be inclined to), a guarantee of Russian minorities' rights (aka what was proposed in Minsk II) and neutrality of Ukraine.
My source re: peace negotiations is from here, primarily:
Of course, the situation has since then vastly radicalised and hardlined on both sides. Tragic - I do not like war. I don't like it when Russians wage it, nor when Ukrainians do it.
I'm reticent about DU and cluster munitions for sure, but the closest-to-the-issue stakeholders are the Ukrainians and they seem to be completely in favor of using those munitions. I think the horrible atrocities that the Russians are committing on the occupied territory are probably mostly responsible for fueling that attitude. The environmental damage and hazards created by these weapons must be weighed against the threat of genocide if Russia wins the war. Which segues into the point about peace negotiations nicely, I guess. I don't rule out US and UK being against negotiations, but realistically I don't think all of NATO put together could stop Ukraine from making a peace agreement with Russia, if the Ukrainians wanted to. And my sense is basically that Ukrainians don't want to, largely because of how Russia has conducted the war: not only the indiscriminate bombardment of cities, but plenty of atrocities behind the front line. Putin and his henchmen openly talk of destroying the Ukrainian state and extinguishing Ukrainian national identity.
I can see Ukrainians not wanting to give up yet but I feel like maybe not a lot of people have asked them the questions I'm asking you, the people giving them the poison. However, thank you for being the first person to answer without immediately jumping to some lame deflection.
They are united by: US bad.
That is, until Trump makes it great again, like it was in the 50ies. And that's where the unity will end, because then US really bad.
[snip] To compound the Russian revanchist, Putin, and Trump with his white supremacist mania to repress all who are unlike him, with communists desiring the end of imperialism is idiotic, and only liberals too blinkered to see past their nose. To wit: Putin's war is over land, over a mythical Russian Empire that once ruled Ukraine - communists want to end all empires. Trump is a vile white supremacist that wants women and queer people to return back to the "mythical 50s" - communists do not want that, we wish to go forward. It's the height of bad faith that pervades here in the pro-Ukrainian liberal tendency here that you appear to believe that anyone who's against you must be for the other, imperialist side. We are not - we're for the workers, the proletariat, of whichever nation. Is this clear, or will you follow this up with more diatribe disguised as clever retorts?
Moderator Action: PDMA removed by Birdjaguar.
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