Why did Hitler choose to attack Russia first?

Zhukov in 1941 was assistant officer for Chief of the General Staff of RKKA. So it was promotion, not a demotion or "relieving of command".

Not knowing what RKKA stands for, but knowing Zhukov was a great commander in the field, I tend to be unimpressed by this. Here's another fact:

On July 29, 1941, Zhukov was sacked from his post of Chief of the General Staff because he suggested abandoning Kiev to avoid an encirclement[18] Stalin refused, leading to a stinging Soviet defeat.

(Quoted from Wikpedia Zhukov entry.)
 
I was just about to quote that myself, thanks Jeelen.

Here's the link, CruelDwarf. My memory is fantastic, as I thought. Also note Zhukov's reassignment after the war, effectively removing him from a position of power.
 
Sorry - but being a second man in General Staff was impressive.


On July 29, 1941, Zhukov was sacked from his post of Chief of the General Staff because he suggested abandoning Kiev to avoid an encirclement[18] Stalin refused, leading to a stinging Soviet defeat.

Firstly, Zhukov was demoted from post of Chief of General Staff in 29 of july. Telegram in which he adviced to Stalin to order abandoning positions around Kiev was sent in 19 of august. So Zhukov was demoted not because his advices to Stalin, but because defeats of RKKA in first month of war.
Again Wiki tries to explain complex matters by simple reasons.

Secondly, holding Kiev was often used as a mistake of soviet command, but in fact this was a right decision. Because South-Western Front hold fortificated positions and threatened to flank of Army Group Center germans were forced to divert from their advance to Moscow and Kiev Cauldorn has bought to Soviet Command whole month to reinforce defenses of the capital.

If soviet troops retreated from Kiev in the mid or end of august AG South just capture it "on the move" in the beginning of september. And Guderian's Second Panzer Group not diverted from advance to Moscow.

This is some sort of chess. Sometimes you must lost a pawn or two just to improve your position on the board.

2Sharwood, as far as I rember in this thread we speak about prewar Purges and their effect on capabilites of the Red Army. So I don't see the how afterwar soviet internal politics effect prewar Red Army.

May be you just not want to speak about history, but want to speak about how bad USSR was? Sorry, but I not intersted in such kind of discussion. History is not about moral judjements, History is about what happened and why it happened. Judjements must left to politics.
 
You are a massive pain in the neck, you know that? I don't give a damn about judging the USSR, you are the one who is constantly pushing the bs about it not ever doing a damn thing wrong, whcih it did repeatedly. I've finally had it with even TRYING to have any sort of discussion with you. The idiocy of stating that losing AN ENTIRE FRIGGING ARMY was "a right decision," is just beyond anything else I've heard you state. You are nothing but a Russian apologist, incapable of seeing Russia as ever having done anything wrong in any sphere.

I HEREBY ENCOURAGE JEELEN AND YEEKIM TO STOP ARGUING WITH THESE "TWO" POSTERS, AS THEY ARE INCAPABLE OF HAVING A SENSIBLE DISCUSSION. I've said it before, but talking to you "two" is like having a discussion with a Holocaust denier. I'm done, waste somebody else's time with your bulls***.
 
The idiocy of stating that losing AN ENTIRE FRIGGING ARMY was "a right decision," is just beyond anything else I've heard you state.
May you elaborate your position?

My point - SW front was sacrificed to divert german attention and stall their advance to Moscow. Because of the famous Hitler "turn to the South" and ordering to Guderian's Second Panzer Group to flank and surround Kiev advance to Moscow was stalled for whole month. If Guderian wasn't turned to Kiev major offensive to Moscow would be begun not in 30 september but in the end of august.
Do you understand what it means? Or all that you can do is a talk about apologists and bulls**t?
 
My problem with you is that you are incapable of admitting any Russian fault, EVER, and the fact that you are intent on making this discussion about "Russian bashing." Did I not tell you I'm actually in favour of many of Russia's actions, including Putin's moves now? In another thread I was all but accused of anti-Semitism for having the temerity to say that Israel started wars, and you're jumping on me for noot kowtowing to your inane belief that Russia has never once made a single mistake in your life, with your claims that I need the argument to be about Russia's lack of morality. I could give a piss about the morality of any action, I'm Machiavellian in philosophy and in life.
 
My point - SW front was sacrificed to divert german attention and stall their advance to Moscow. Because of the famous Hitler "turn to the South" and ordering to Guderian's Second Panzer Group to flank and surround Kiev advance to Moscow was stalled for whole month. If Guderian wasn't turned to Kiev major offensive to Moscow would be begun not in 30 september but in the end of august.

You seem to think there was actually a plan behind the enormous Red Army losses during the summer of '41. Well, you're right; but it was the German plan. The large encirclement battles were exactly what the German High Command was counting on. Stalin had as little understanding of military affairs as Hitler - but he learned to let good commanders step in when necessary the hard way. After the losses of '41 he basically had no choice, since his own decisions had turned out to be disastrous. It wasn't because of "wise defense" that the Wehrmacht's advance didn't go any faster: the huge amounts of POWs were a strain on the Russian transport system, bad enough as it was. (Also, there are several occasions when Panzer advances were halted for fear they might get cut off from the follow-up units.) So, basically, the Axis advance couldn't go any faster than it did.

The basic flaw in the German offensive was not that Russian resistance was stiffer than expected, it was the decision to lauch three separate spearheads in three different directions. Axis resources simply weren't sufficient to achieve all three Army Group's goals; they should have converged on Moscow. (It is true that the Germans greatly underestimated the Red Army, but in quantity, not in quality.)

I have to agree with Sharwood though: your arguments seem to focus on details, but lack any overall perspective that would divert from the official version of "the Great Patriotic War". (Clever appeal that was, BTW: Stalin knew full well that a demand to defend communism would have little effective response - so he appealed to nationalism. And I do admire Stalin's stance during the Battle for Moscow, which he refused to leave, while most of the government departed for Kuibyshev.)
 
The idiocy of stating that losing AN ENTIRE FRIGGING ARMY was "a right decision," is just beyond anything else I've heard you state.

I believe this attitude mirrors somewhat correctly the stance of most Soviet leaders towards their soldiers and people in general. Can be summarized in two words: "extremely expendable".

Whether the gambit of holding on to Kiev was "right" or "wrong", we can never know for sure. However, I feel compelled to point out to CruelDwarf, that you are taking the side of seminarian never having served in army over experienced military commander in this matter of military strategy. ;)
 
My problem with you is that you are incapable of admitting any Russian fault,
Kiev Cauldorn without any doubt a russian fault. I just try to tell you about why SW Front soldiers was ordered to stand firm and not to run for their lives.

I believe this attitude mirrors somewhat correctly the stance of most Soviet leaders towards their soldiers and people in general. Can be summarized in two words: "extremely expendable".
Again, not some real objectons, but another simple stereotype about USSR.

However, I feel compelled to point out to CruelDwarf, that you are taking the side of seminarian never having served in army over experienced military commander in this matter of military strategy.
Seminarian or not, Stalin did a right decision. Moscow was a far more important then Kiev and South-Western Front.

Well, probably I must write some more profound post about reasons of defeats of Red Army in the summer-autumn campaign.

1. German troops, even infantry ones were superior in mobility in comparsion with their soviet counterparts. If you in doubt about it I may elaborate.
2. Soviet infantry was not capable to hold out direct attack of the german armoured/motorized units in the open ground. Again, If you ask why I may elaborate.
3. Because of german superiority in mobility any soviet non-motorized unit outflanked by german force was almost inevitabely surrounded before it could retreat to new position.

So soviet General Staff in fact had only two ways to stop or hold german invasion.
First way - counterattacks by own motorized/armoured units on the flanks of the advancing german troops. But soviet tank formations were soon decimated in such counterattacks and in autumn of 1941 all mechanized corpses were disbanded and reformed into tank brigades which used purely to infantry support.
Second way - war of attrition with units defending good defensible terrain such as cities/fortifications/large rivers. But with this method defending units were regulary surrounded and lost.


So ideed by both ways Soviet command trade peope, hardware and territory for time. As I say earlier if SW front was ordered to retreal Army Group South just capture Kiev on the move. Army Group Center was continue their advance to Moscow without any additional delays for whole september.
 
You actually make good points there CruelDwarf. But you are missing the point. Stalin didn't order Kiev to hold out as part of some master plan to protect Moscow. He ordereed Kiev to hold out because he didn't understand how foolish it was.

And if he had of withdrawn troops from Kiev, sure, the Germans would have taken it on the move. They would also have had a whole other army to fight off when they pushed towards Moscow.
 
And if he had of withdrawn troops from Kiev, sure, the Germans would have taken it on the move. They would also have had a whole other army to fight off when they pushed towards Moscow.
Indeed, but germans had whole Army Group South to held SW Front busy. So it wasn't a problem for AG Center.

If you want to see what retreat of the SW Front may be look like see to german drive to Stalingrad in 1942. Almost none soviet unit reached Stalingrad intact and city was protected by newly formed armies.
 
Purge was nothing to do with doctrines. Soviet military theorists were good indeed, but this advanced theories were never implemented in military in large scale.

Someone's misinformed you.

The Red Army field manuals contained mobile warfare doctrine prior to the Purge. This is simply fact, and amply documented. It is there in black and white in both the 1929 Red Army Field Regulations and again, in a completely developed form, in the 1936 Provisional Field Regulations. Guderian refers to it in Achtung! Panzer in detail, as do a long list of military studies authors. The doctrine was tested extensively in trials conducted at Kazan and Lipetsk beginning in 1926. Incidentally, the Germans also studied and developed much of their own mobile warfare doctrine here - under the limitations of Versailles, they were unable to do so effectively on their own, and the Soviets benefitted from German technical knowledge. Ultimately, however, the Soviets turned to Anglo-American designs and adopted the excellent American Christie chassis for their tanks. (The Germans, for their part, did not suffer when the agreement was terminated - they no longer needed access to Soviet test grounds once Hitler came to power).

"Deep battle", as the Soviets termed the doctrine, was the work of military theorists in the Red Army who tended to be educated men who had a long career in the military, or in academic military theory. Most of them had been educated before the Soviet Revolution, which had only occurred in 1917 (just 12 years before the first appearance of the doctrine in field manuals). Many of them had been educated abroad, in Germany, England, the US, or most commonly, France. When the Purge came, Stalin quickly turned on exactly these sorts of individuals as being counter-revolutionaries who secretly harboured capitalist ideals.

Moreover, he directly targetted the deep battle doctrine. Deep battle doctrine was technological, and relied on machinery, not manpower, but the Stalinist conception of communist superiority believed in the power of mass collective action, even in war. The origins of the deep battle doctrine were based on studies of Russian operations during WW1: the hated Czar's war, which brought the communists to power. The doctrine was also, at least partially, foreign in origin: as mentioned, the Germans had played a big role in its development, while other parts of the doctrine were adapted from readings of British theorists. Most importantly, deep battle doctrine was, as most big ideas are, associated with one man in particular: Mikhail Tukhachevsky.

Tukhachevsky and Stalin already had a personal animosity stemming from a disagreement during the 1920 Polish-Soviet War (Stalin blamed Tukhachevsky personally for the humiliating Soviet defeat), and further, Tukhachevsky was born into an aristocratic family (related to the Tolstoys, apparently). Complicating matters, Tukhachevsky had visited colleagues in Britain and Germany in 1936. He was arrested and executed, and the deep battle doctrine was deleted from future editions of the Field Regulations, on the grounds that Tukhachevsky was a Nazi spy who had foisted an unworkable doctrine on the Red Army, so as to weaken the defences of the USSR, on behalf of his supposed Nazi masters.

And that's the story behind deep battle, and its fall from favour during the Purge.
 
The Red Army field manuals contained mobile warfare doctrine prior to the Purge.
Field manuals is example of such theory. Practical implementation of them was showed in Large Military Maneuvers in 1936. You may have a genious manuals, but if your officers cannot execute them properly this manuals is only waste of paper and nothing more.

Moreover - soviet military capabilites prevent using concept of deep battle/operation above tactical scale. Just because soviet mechanized units before Purges (and after them too) lack proper supply and support system. You cannot conduit deep operation with only tanks, you also need huge amounts of trucks for infantry, artillery, fuel and supplies.
And soviet amoured units lack trucks in needed quantities.

ALso - concept of deep battle was introduced and defacto created not by Tuhachevsky, but by Triandofilov.
 
Just because soviet mechanized units before Purges (and after them too) lack proper supply and support system. You cannot conduit deep operation with only tanks, you also need huge amounts of trucks for infantry, artillery, fuel and supplies.
And soviet amoured units lack trucks in needed quantities.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this point, because the Soviet Union did in fact possess functional Mechanized Corps with attached motor companies (disbanded, of course, during the purge). Deep battle was not the same as blitzkrieg and did not call for rapid advance, but sustained operations in depth. This does not require the same level of logistics support as blitzkrieg. Military industry and logistics support was there, and is attested to by numerous contemporary observers (Guderian, Hart, von Mellenthin, etc).

ALso - concept of deep battle was introduced and defacto created not by Tuhachevsky, but by Triandofilov.

It was associated with Tukhachevsky. He certainly didn't invent it.
 
because the Soviet Union did in fact possess functional Mechanized Corps with attached motor companies (disbanded, of course, during the purge).
Oh, mein gott... No one disbanded nor mechanized corps, nor any of its subunits. Not during the Purge and not after it.
Soviet tank division of 1940 was consisted of 1 motorized (in theory, de facto almost always on foot) infantry regiment and two tank regiment. Motorized division of the same year consist of two infantry regiments and one tank regiment.

Deep battle was not the same as blitzkrieg and did not call for rapid advance, but sustained operations in depth. This does not require the same level of logistics support as blitzkrieg.
If your infatnry travel on foot it just cannot follow tanks. If you don't have proper trucks to tow artillery your tanks don't have fire support. And if you don't have fuel tankers and transportation units your tanks just immobile and unarmed tincans.
Because of problems with logistics soviet mechanized units prior Purge or after them was one-shot weapon. They weren't able to endure sustained combat action.

Military industry and logistics support was there, and is attested to by numerous contemporary observers (Guderian, Hart, von Mellenthin, etc).
Foreign observers not see anything besides what soviet government inteded them to see. No sane leaders what to show their army as incapable for modern warfare.
 
Oh, mein gott... No one disbanded nor mechanized corps, nor any of its subunits. Not during the Purge and not after it.

Mein Gott, indeed.

In 1931-1935, the Red Army adopted light, medium, and later heavy tanks of different types. By the beginning of the 1936, it already had four mechanized corps, six separate mechanized brigades, six separate tank regiments, fifteen mechanized regiments within cavalry divisions and considerable number of tank battalions and companies. The creation of mechanized and tank units marked the dawn of a new branch of armed forces, which would be called armored forces. In 1937, the Central Directorate of Mechanization and Motorization was renamed to Directorate of Automated Armored Units (Avtobronetankovoye upravleniye) and then to Chief Directorate of Automated Armored Units (Glavnoye avtobronetankovoye upravleniye), headed by Dmitry Pavlov. Soviet armored units gained some combat experience during the Battle of Lake Khasan (1938), Battle of Khalkhin Gol (1939) and the Winter War with Finland (1939-1940).

However, experiences in these operations, and also the experiences from the Spanish Civil War, led the Red Army command to the conclusion that the mechanised corps formations were too cumbersome, and a decision was taken to disband them in November 1939, and to distribute their units among infantry.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanized_Corps_(Soviet)

Your posts are beginning to make me wonder if this is an alt history forum! You've definately got some sort of angle here, so which is it? Do you have some axe to grind with the Russians? Or are you a Russian nationalist who wants to pretend that Russia got clobbered in the Winter War and Barbarossa because they never had a chance to modernize? The simple fact is that the Soviets failed in those things mostly through incompetence, not because of lack of opportunity. They had everything they needed to build an excellent military, the tools, the equipment, the ideas, the industrial support, the technology, the officers, the experience - more than anybody else. All the components were put into their hand, and yet somehow, almost like a miracle of ineptitude, what came out the other end was probably the biggest pile of junk in the industrial world.

Because of problems with logistics soviet mechanized units prior Purge or after them was one-shot weapon.

Soviet logistics were adequate - as the Japanese learned at Khalkin Gol. They believed Soviet forces did not have a modern logistics capability, but on the field, it quickly became apparent that the Soviets had more than sufficient mobility and logistics capacity, while the Japanese did not.
 
Mein Gott, indeed. In 1934, there were two mechanized corps, each comprised of 2-3 "DD" brigades (mostly BT tanks), a motor infantry regiment, and an artillery regiment. Plus six more independant DD brigades outside of the two corps. These were both disbanded in 1939.
1. During 1934 was formed another 2 mechanized corps. So total number - 4 MK.
2. During 1938 all mechanized crops, brigades and separate regiments were renamed into tank corps, brigades and regiments accordingly.

For example in september of USSR in occupation of Western Ukraine and Bellorussia (former Poland territories) participated 15th and 25th tank corps.
But because of uninspring perfomance of mechanized units in this so called in soviet press "Liberation quest" ("Osvoboditelniy pokhod") and conflicts in Far East in 29th november of 1939 Prime Military Council recognized as necessary major reforms in RRKA tank units.

Tank corps were disbanded in 15th january of 1940 and reformed as motorized divisions and separate tank brigades. But in 9th of june mechanized crops were recreated by decision of Council of People Comissars (SNK).

So I don't see how Purges of 1937-38 effects reforming of mechanized crops in 1940 after RKKA recieved a great deal of combat experience and needed to reform accordingly.


Soviet logistics were adequate - as the Japanese learned at Khalkin Gol. They believed Soviet forces did not have a modern logistics capability, but on the field, it quickly became apparent that the Soviets had more than sufficient mobility and logistics capacity, while the Japanese did not.
1. Khalkin-Gol was one battle encounter and not a sustained conflict.
2. No soviet mechanized corps participated in conflict. Soviet 57th special corps includes: 36th motorized rifle division, 11th light tank brigade, 7th, 8th, 9th motor-armoured brigades (unique units solely consist of armoured cars) and 6th separate cavalry brigade. Total around 30 thousand men, 200 cannons, 284 tanks (219 BT-5, 33 T-26, 18 XT-26 (flamethrower version, AFAIK), 6 unarmed T-26 in role of tow vehicles and 8 T-37), 370 armoured cars and 6 thousands of trucks.
3. And this unit was formed specially for act with stretched supply lines. And it not represent capabilities of any standart RKKA unit.

The simple fact is that the Soviets failed in those things mostly through incompetence, not because of lack of opportunity. They had everything they needed to build an excellent military, the tools, the equipment, the ideas, the industrial support, the technology, the officers,
Yes, you right - they failed mostly because of incompetence. But may I ask you - where USSR should take the competent specialists for all you speak about? Competent specialists don't grow on trees. They must be teached from the scratch. And you cannot build industrial superpower from agrarian state by whim.
 
Yes, you right - they failed mostly because of incompetence. But may I ask you - where USSR should take the competent specialists for all you speak about? Competent specialists don't grow on trees. They must be teached from the scratch. And you cannot build industrial superpower from agrarian state by whim.
If I might permit myself this, what I think he said was that all these things were after all there, just never assembled into a coherent whole.

And on balance the greatest impediment to that would be politics, the driving force of which at the time was Stalin personally, not least his paranoia with regards to any potential challengers to his political authority, for which the Red Army paid a very high price.

The Soviet Five Year plans did credibly industrialise the Soviet Union, and fast. The questions are related to whether the human costs for this were acceptable or not.

What's damning about the example of the struggles and ineptitude of the Red Army in the early war years is that it is reasonable to conclude that after having stamped a modern industrial base out of virtually nothing - at a human cost regarded as completely prohibitive by most - Stalin still, temporarily at least, pissed it all away in paranoid power games, and consequently the Red Army was a very unready army in 1939, and still in 1941.
 
If I might permit myself this, what I think he said was that all these things were after all there, just never assembled into a coherent whole.
Well, then this specialist not only competent in matters of governing state, but also invisible and indeed grew on some magic tree in Siberia wilds. Prior Revolution and Great War more then half of russian population was illiterate, only in first years of 30s soviet state built working educational system for the masses.
And you cannot run a industrial state or industrial army without very large quantites of educated people. So soviet system needed some time to grew and as usual time was short.

This is the main reason for all failures of early Soviet state. Transformation from agrarian society to industrial is lenghty process and bolsheviks speed it up as much as they can.
 
The Turks weren't German allies! They were neutral, and pro-British at that. They were admittedly far more afraid of Russia than Germany, but they certainly weren't pro-Axis.

I have also heard something along the lines of Turkey giving military support to the Germans. Though it was more along the lines of sending in troops after the Germans took Stalingrad (which obviously didn't happen).

I'm not saying it's true, but I'm just saying I heard this. I was unable to confirm it (most likely because I didn't even bother researching it :rolleyes:)

Yes, you right - they failed mostly because of incompetence. But may I ask you - where USSR should take the competent specialists for all you speak about? Competent specialists don't grow on trees. They must be teached from the scratch. And you cannot build industrial superpower from agrarian state by whim.
You can, but it will just take a bit of time, which varies on the amount of effort you put into building it.
 
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