Why have incels gotten so much attention?

[Manfred Belheim]

I've given hundreds, just browse the forum

I did browse the forum last night. I saw the same stuff Ryika saw. None of it was great I'm happy to admit. But also the particular post you keep going on about was about the worst I saw, with it's "should I beat her?" question. The paedophilia thing being a close second. But it is just a tiny forum of bizarre individuals. The most recent post in the thread at the bottom of page 1 is from June for example. Compare that to CFC OT where the most recent post in the thread at the bottom of page 1 is probably from yesterday. So either:

a) This is way too niche a forum to be considered truly representative of the whole "movement". Or..
b) The movement is so small that this is representative, but then... who cares if it's that's small anyway.

but the key thing isn't the post, or even the repsonses, it's the lack of censure that's flagging up.

Well there's hardly anyone there on the forum to censure anything anyway. But neither of the two replies even acknowledged the question about beating, never mind engaged with it. If you really want to get yourself all het up because two people didn't immediately decry the worst aspects of a troll post that was put there to try and trap them, then that's up to you I suppose. My outrage glands require more prodding than that though.

 

[red_elk]

To be fair I don't think whether or not you hold yourself to the same standard has any bearing on how controlling (or not) the desire/expectation is of others. If I angrily demand my girlfriend gets her nipples pierced, I don't think it would make it any less controlling if I said "look, mine are too, now do it!".

Likewise if I just decided I really wanted or "expected" that in a partner, but made no demands of any specific woman to comply with it, that wouldn't be controlling at all. And it wouldn't make it any more controlling if I personally was unwilling to undergo the procedure.

Formally, yes I agree.
It's just my personal view on this matter. If someone expects partner to be "virtuous", it's fair if he applies the same standards for himself.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

This is managing to miss the point by a spectacular margin, we are talking about red flags and warning signs which almost without fail can be used as a cause for alarm, especially where you start seeing clusters of such warnings and a sub culture which is tolerant.

No... you're doing that "we're talking about this" thing again. Yes that was a broader conversation that was going on, but I was clearly responding to red_elk's specific comment of:

especially if a guy applies the same standards for himself

And disagreeing that that qualifier actually makes any difference (in terms of "controllingness", not necessarily in terms of hypocrisy, or reasonableness in general).

Am I allowed to do that, or are you going to encourage the creation of a new thread again?

 

[spot261]

No... you're doing that "we're talking about this" thing again. Yes that was a broader conversation that was going on, but I was clearly responding to red_elk's specific comment of:



And disagreeing that that qualifier actually makes any difference (in terms of "controllingness", not necessarily in terms of hypocrisy, or reasonableness in general).

Am I allowed to do that, or are you going to encourage the creation of a new thread again?

I'm actually not sure I'm following this, are you suggesting if a man keeps himself chaste he has the right to be angry when he discovers a woman has not?

If he has no tattoos he should have the right to expect her not to?

That's no less controlling than any other instance, keeping to a certain standard yourself gives you no more authority to demand it from others. If I misunderstood your point I apologise, but it is again part of a drift away from the larger question of how we define an incel and thus what qualities has drawn so much attention to them.

Incels self define by a set of values and criteria which are being denied here on their behalf, that's the real irony. Their whole subculture is based around precisely the mindset I'm describing and they make no pretense otherwise. An actual self defining incel wouldn't read this thread and recognise the "unlucky in love" representation being touted, not unless they were only at the very fringes of the movement and yet to be more thoroughly indoctrinated. Such a person would be a potential member, the material from which they "recruit" (I use that term loosely before we get lost in semantics), a genuine incel doesn't see themselves as struggling to attract women, they see themselves as being cheated by those women.

One thing they do have though is a certain form of honesty that acknowledges the place they are coming from, the denial is actually coming from others who are making a case based on an overly positive misrepresentation.

 

[Farm Boy]

Theoretically, yah, but its kind of a red warning light in anyone over age 20 imo.

I waited for marriage. Kinda weird that you're implying I was a threat for being up front about it.

Shame them legs apart. Shaaaaame.

 

[spot261]

I waited for marriage. Kinda weird that you're implying I was a threat for being up front about it.

Shame them legs apart. Shaaaaame.

You waited, sure, did that give you the right to demand chastity from a potential partner?

 

[Farm Boy]

I selected somebody who shares my take. She selected me. If she slept with somebody else after that selection it would be a deal breaker, yes. The intention of monogamy is mutual and it hasn't been a point of contention.

 

[red_elk]

This is managing to miss the point by a spectacular margin, we are talking about red flags and warning signs

We weren't talking about red flags and warning signs actually.
Manfred and I dared to discuss something else in this thread, without your permission.

 

[spot261]

I selected somebody who shares my take. She selected me. If she slept with somebody else after that selection it would be a deal breaker, yes. The intention of monogamy is mutual and it hasn't been a point of contention.

Exactly, a shared interest and mutually consenting.

But that isn't the case here.

 

[Farm Boy]

That does appear to be what you are interested in insisting, yes. Those insidious 21 year old virgins, creepin on your wimmins. Gotta be a greentext for how creepy they are in some savory corner of the internet for the consumption of the woke.

 

[spot261]

That does appear to be what you are interested in insisting, yes. Those insidious 21 year old virgins, creepin on your wimmins. Gotta be a greentext for how creepy they are in some savory corner of the internet for the consumption of the woke.

Or just, y'know, law enforcement.

 

[Farm Boy]

Put out by 21 or clink!

Nah, trollbox is trollbox.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I've given hundreds, just browse the forum, but the key thing isn't the post, or even the repsonses, it's the lack of censure that's flagging up.

The "lack of censure" could be as simple as "don't feed the obvious troll." There could be a lesson in that for us.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

This distinction keeps coming up, as does an over reliance of analytical intelligence where emotional should inform.

Analytical intelligence suffices just fine to reject just about everything from the apparent incel perspective though. I'd argue the reverse: that over-reliance on emotion over reality is a contributing factor to their blindness to self-reflection.

Going back to the guy whose girlfriend had lost her virginity, for instance, to be reading that post and thinking in terms of the definitions surrounding the word "expect" and deny the issue is about control is to completely discount the sort of intuitive understanding that should inform the obvious assessment that tells us that's the only thing it's about.

If the assessment were obvious, you could answer Ryika's question or refute my assertions regarding the topic. Doing so would be much more effective than talking about intuitive understanding and emotions without addressing the arguments presented.

To quibble over the semantics is to discount the sort of life experience that most people in the wide world would apply to the situation and see straight to the heart of the issue, yet repeatedly we've seen reference to how real life identities and experiences do the argument no justice and should be ignored.

That's demonstrably false. Nobody here disputes that the incel community has a poor grasp of reality and acts poorly based on that. There is some push to ensure statements are consistent with reality. This thread has seen some rejection of anecdotal evidence, with clear reasoning and counter-examples given for why anecdotal evidence isn't valid to project onto populations at large.

The norm throughout the movement isn't to bemoan failure on the sexual market and seek solace, it's to blame women and reject them as worthwhile human beings as a consequence.

That is consistent with the assertion of a poor grasp on reality. It's also seen pretty commonly - people are in general quick to blame their failings on things they can't control. The incel community does that in more extreme fashion with a more warped view of reality.

 

[spot261]

The "lack of censure" could be as simple as "don't feed the obvious troll." There could be a lesson in that for us.

No, because we wouldn't want to encourage anyone to intrude on the incel apologising with any evidence or ethics would we now? That would just spoil the illusion we're all enjoying that inadequate young males with no social comprehension or real world experience who spend all day in front of computer games can't possibly be dangerous people

 

[Farm Boy]

There could be a lesson in that for us.

Recommendation processed. I think that's two by one now, trying to decide on the third.

 

[spot261]

Analytical intelligence suffices just fine to reject just about everything from the apparent incel perspective though. I'd argue the reverse: that over-reliance on emotion over reality is a contributing factor to their blindness to self-reflection.

No, it really isn't, because it takes a certain amount of emotional intelligence to actually be able to make the leaps required to see the point.

If the assessment were obvious, you could answer Ryika's question or refute my assertions regarding the topic. Doing so would be much more effective than talking about intuitive understanding and emotions without addressing the arguments presented.

The assessment is obvious, the incel community spell it out for us, the problem is people closing their eyes and playing silly games with semantics in a bizarre ad darkly comical attempt to intellectualise the world away.

That's demonstrably false. Nobody here disputes that the incel community has a poor grasp of reality and acts poorly based on that. There is some push to ensure statements are consistent with reality. This thread has seen some rejection of anecdotal evidence, with clear reasoning and counter-examples given for why anecdotal evidence isn't valid to project onto populations at large.

The population at large is open to you at the click of a few buttons, you choosing not to look isn't my problem.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

No, because we wouldn't want to encourage anyone to intrude on the incel apologising with any evidence or ethics would we now? That would just spoil the illusion we're all enjoying that inadequate young males with no social comprehension or real world experience who spend all day in front of computer games can't possibly be dangerous people

You seem to have completely missed the point. You also seem to have completely missed that no one here is interested in "incel apologizing." Just because your "incel attacking" is based on a demonstrably fake example of incel behavior and you've been dragged through the brambles like a sideshow clown doesn't mean that anyone disagrees with the basic premise that incels are a troublesome little crowd of misogynists.

 

[spot261]

You seem to have completely missed the point. You also seem to have completely missed that no one here is interested in "incel apologizing." Just because your "incel attacking" is based on a demonstrably fake example of incel behavior and you've been dragged through the brambles like a sideshow clown doesn't mean that anyone disagrees with the basic premise that incels are a troublesome little crowd of misogynists.

Oh well done, you got there in the end.

Have a lollipop.

Now look up the word "apologist", it'll be a struggle but I think you'll manage.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Oh well done, you got there in the end.

Have a lollipop.

Now look up the word "apologist", it'll be a struggle but I think you'll manage.

If you want to degenerate this into a flamewar just because you got caught trying to use an obvious bit of trollery as evidence I'm probably game, but you're going to have to demonstrate more worthiness as an opponent first because "ooooohhhh, look it up" is just too lame to generate any real excitement around here.