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Why I have to play Evil?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by Sircam, Nov 5, 2007.

  1. Sircam

    Sircam Chieftain

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    I played with the Sheaim in a Huge Pangea map with 9 opponents, my mad scentists discovered Infernal Pact and my armies very fastly raised the counter to 100...

    Now all my lands are totally changed in fields of perdition as a huge portion of , the rest of the world, flames divored my fields and the demonic barbarian army wildly ride without worthy adversaries able to stop them.

    Cities fall as leaves against the wind and nothing seems able to stop this big wave of destruction, moreover Avatar of Wrath likes to conquest and to raze my border cities...

    Now I know to be the only responsible of all of this (and the thing amuses me), but I am trying to imagine how can I play an evil faction hoping to win if every my action leads to this :confused:
     
  2. 3141592

    3141592 Warlord

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    Everyones worlds going to hell, you just got to outlast them. Your units spawn faster the higher the AC gets so you should be all right. Just use spells and heroes against the Avatar and he'll fall, eventually...
     
  3. Nor'easter

    Nor'easter Emperor

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    You can play any way you want -- if you're the Sheaim and want to worship the Order, feel free!

    As the Sheaim, though, you benefit from the Armageddon Counter rising. As it increases, you have a greater chance of units arriving through your Planar Gates. Also, the maximum number of each type of unit arriving through the Planar Gate increases as the Armageddon Counter increases.
     
  4. Rex rgis of Ter

    Rex rgis of Ter Me I'm a Creator

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    Don't forget the Avatar of Wrath falls to banish spell. Or at least he used to. You can kill him when he comes to your door.
     
  5. vorshlumpf

    vorshlumpf Emperor

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    If you are into role-playing at all, you should be revelling in the demise of the world, even your own destruction. Your goal would be to survive long enough to know that no one at all can survive.

    Also, "Evil" does not equal "Wants Hell Terrain". It would depend on the leader, and their circumstances. But, definitely, anyone who worships the Ashen Veil would welcome the introduction of demons (though they may realize at the last minute that their own lives are forfeit in the process).

    Sounds like you are having a great game.
     
  6. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    I still say that hell terrain needs to be able to spread (at least eventually, albeit perhaps much more slowly) into good (aligned that is, not more skilled) players' lands, and that there should be an AV repeatable ritual (with an AC requirement of at least 50) that makes peace between your civ and the barbarian state, then breaks the peace between the the barbs and anyone else (but perhaps not breaking the peace between the barbs and civs with the barbarian trait--Infernals should probably keep their peace with the demonic barbs). Since it is repeatable and your AV rivals can build it too, the peace may not last very long. You would need to be on the lookout for you AV rivals who would wish to sacrifice you in order to gain favor with Agares and to save themselves. Very thematically correct, imho.
     
  7. CuteKills

    CuteKills Chieftain

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    Agree on the spread into Good lands.

    Rather than having hard AC thresholds for spread into different territory types, mightn't it be better to alter the rate or probability of spread? (So hell would spread more slowly into good lands, but spread it would.)
     
  8. skallben

    skallben Diplomat

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    I don't really think it makes much sense for hell to spread everywhere. The Apocalypse means all the forces are released, good evil and most of all - chaos. The Apocalypse does not mean that the world automatically goes to hell ( no pun intended), allthough it might, it will at least suffer hard times.

    At least this is my interpreteation, after all you can have a game where Hyborem, Avatar of Wrath, Four Horsemen are all killed. You can even have one where all evil players are killed (since similar alignment and religion often bond together). Imagine a game where all the mentioned are killed but hell spreads uncontrolled. Yes, bringing the AC counter down will stop the spread but that is easier said than done. Good vs. good wars have their AC effects aswell.

    If Hell was to automatically spread all over the world when the Apocalypse happens, that would in my eyes make a symbolical statement that evil has won or is at least winning. I think Hell and the Apocayptic events can be expanded upon to further reflect the universal struggle between the divine powers at work.

    I have to say, I would love to see a good Civ that has for goal to bring forth the Apocalypse.


    "The Ragnarök Cult, an agnostic cult with a somewhat similar perspective as the Grigori, deny the divinity of the so called fake Gods and instead wait for the only true God to step down. The only way to bring about Utopia under the rule of the true God would be to confront all the forces that work against them, non-mortals included. This confrontation will happen during the final hours of the Apocalypse, alliances will break and shift, the decievers will show their true colors. You are either against them or on their side, there is no middle ground. Deny the one God and you will be their mortal enemy for eternity."

    One the Apocalypse happens, the Cult automatically declares war on every evil Civ and anyone who refuse to do the same will also be their enemy and suffer major diplomatical penalties (maybe get negative modifiers from the religion "Ragnarök"). The Cult gains access to a new religion (Ragnarök) when Apocalypse occurs. Spreading this religion will grant increased control over the territories it spreads to. This opens a unique Victory Condition for the Cult, if they manage to unite the world under the Ragnarök religion.

    Yeah, the Civ-and-religion-names sucks but it was just a general concept to give my view on the possibilities of this scenario. I just thought this up in a few minutes and Im sure the devs got plenty of ideas to implement in the future. I really hope the Apocalysm feature is expanded upon. I love Orthus, I love the Blight, I love the chaos and destruction that comes. Give us more!
     
  9. zxcvbnm

    zxcvbnm The Nobody

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    The popup at AC 100 says that
    Or something like that
    So good players should try anything to keep AC under 100 because it will join Erebus to hell, realm of Agares where Agares can rule, and the only way to get it off there is to get AC under 100 as soon as possible, in the final battle to decide whether the future of Erebus is as a part of Agares's domain or as the eternal battlefield.
    (Might be a victory condition for Sheaim and Infernals, keeping AC at 100 for X turns to win.)
     
  10. xienwolf

    xienwolf Deity

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    Complaining that a good vs good war still raises the AC is somewhat comical. Good Fighting Good is the perfect symbol of the Triumph of Evil.


    I do think though, that the AC counter should automatically decrease after a certain (large) number of turns with NO war active. Or maybe just a certain (small) number of turns without combat, so the AV player recovering from a costly war can maintain his AC counter with a couple of HN units.

    As it is, there isn't too much reward for getting the world to go all "Happy-Happy-Joy-Joy" and hold hands and sing in circles or whatnot.

    The AI will go for every tech in the game. Thus you have a GUARANTEE that the AV will be founded. AC +4. Also, not every barbarian city will survive to make population of 2. These don't seem to count for a full point of AC, but eventually will bump it up.

    Basically, I have never seen a game fail to get at least an AC of 20. And IMO, if you are skilled enough at manipulating the other Civilizations to prevent any war, you shouldn't see the AC go up beyond 10.

    Granted, my games aren't lightning quick, but I do not think you can finish a game ultra fast unless you go to massive war (or maybe push REALLY hard for the Altar Victory. Does the AI auto-war when you start to build the final Altar like they do on building the final Tower?).
     
  11. skallben

    skallben Diplomat

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    I admit my ignorance about the lore as I'm a pretty new player and have not read everything yet but I still stand by my point. Of course, only the Devs really know but I allways figured the popups as being prophecies of what might come rather than being a glimpse into a set future. Evidently, those prophecies does not allways work out 100% as they are told in reality or else every game would be the same. Even if Good is fighting Good, I think Hell is kind of out of place if Wrath, Hyborem and Evil civs are wiped out in the Apocalypse aftermath.

    Maybe the Hell counter should rather be separate from the Apocalypse counter.

    I suspect you refer to me, that was not a complaint, it was merely a statement of a fact. Quite the contrary, I like that aspect and I agree with you mostly. However I do rather see Good vs. Good as the perfect growground for "Evil", even though there can still be peace and changed conditions. The more Good fight Good, the more evil is spawned from the terror and suffering, the more power and influence do Demonic forces gain.
     
  12. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    I don't think that the Banish spell should destroy demons at very hight AC; the spell is supposed to banish units to hell, but by that point in the game hell and Erebus are merging. If the unit is already in hell, then what is the spell really doing? I think it should only transport demons to other parts of the world that are covered in hell terrain, or allow banished units to return latter on to random tiles that are hell terrain. If you can get rid of all the world's hell terrain, then hell's denizens can't come back.

    Of course, this seems like it would be better for good civs to use than evil, but I really see banish as something more appropriate for a Law spell than an Entropy one anyway.
     
  13. Sircam

    Sircam Chieftain

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    the problem is that playing an evil civilization whichever thing I do unavoidablly raise the counter up to 100 very fast, if I would like to play a pacific game I would have chosen a good civ...

    So if I want to expand my borders declaring war I am only helping the Avatar of Wrath to come on the earth...

    I know this is intentional but looking at my own units converted to demons, 2 of 4 Avatar happily ridinig my lands and the Avatar itself in holidays into my cities is frustrating. Moreover my Planar Gates give to my only few units, in all the game considering that I had a Planar Gate in every city (6), I received only less then 10 units at all with an ending game at AC 100...

    Next time I will play a good civilization and I will head to a culture victory :)
     
  14. 3141592

    3141592 Warlord

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    What size map are you on? If it is a small map then the four horsemen and Avatar will be much more devastating, which brings in an interesting design flaw.

    Mabey a smaller percent of units should be converted or killed on smaller maps due to the AC to make up for the higher potency of the evil heroes.
     
  15. zxcvbnm

    zxcvbnm The Nobody

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    If Hyborem, Wrath, horsemen and AV are wiped out then the AC will be lowered with at least 20 on any map. If hell spreads to good non-Basium lands only in AC 100 then it will be removed after a few turns. And if the good civs have won it doesn't take much time to control the entire surface and remove hell forever. Because hell needs something to spread from, it can be removed even at AC 99 with a lot of adepts sanctifying.
    If hell's seas had a black mist on them removing it forever would be much easier.
     
  16. xienwolf

    xienwolf Deity

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    And besides, if you are playing evil and do not want the Apocalypse... Turn it off before you start the game is always a fair option :)

    (Haven't tried doing double the AC rate yet... I imagine that might be quite difficult to handle. And thus far the Amurites are the BEST at handling the Apocalypse, because of Skeleton swarm :))
     
  17. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    or luchuirp, with hordes of fire launcher golems... lots of fire launcher mud golems.. not going bard, not dying due to Hell and armageddon.. :)
     
  18. Lord Yanaek

    Lord Yanaek Emperor

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    Playing evil??

    You mean, like playing an evil Calabim empire worshipping the veil for the increased power while trying to keep the AC under control and the infernals out of the world?

    It's a lot of fun :D

    That's my current game as Flauros. The AC is rising but currently under control, two of the horsemen showed up, but i immediately leveled a vampire using my pop 35 city (sacrifice the weak is so useful) and promoted him into an super anti-apocalypse vampire (demon slayer, combat and formation 2) I killed the 2 horsemen easily. I couldn't resist the urge to rename this vampire "Angelus" after the fight :lol: .

    As i'm currently the only AV civ in the world, Hyborem didn't showed up (i don't care for Demon Altar and never researched Pact), but even if Sheelba ever summons him i'll kill him outright with my army of demon slaying vampires (they are ready)

    Yes, i'm evil, but Erebus is MY hunting ground :evil:

    I might even summon Hybo myself just to be able to kill him and lower the AC, there isn't much else i can do to lower the AC unfortunately, apart from sanctifying every ruin i find (which i does, yes, life mana is useful to vampires, it keeps the herd healthy).

    I still have some troubles with an AC riser strategy. I think some victory condition is missing for evil ac players when they finally manage to bring hell on erebus.

    The avatar is a real annoyance too. Well at least i'm not too concerned about this one as i can cast loyalty on my troops and Losha and my three most powerful vampires will be immortals, but others might have more troubles.
     
  19. zxcvbnm

    zxcvbnm The Nobody

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    UHV's for all players/religions might be interesting
     
  20. westamastaflash

    westamastaflash Lord Commander

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    Play Vampires and Found the Order. Lawful Evil vampires with vampiric inquisitors and high priests = fun :-D. Too bad they don't have both D&D attributes (so I could be Lawful Evil instead of Good)
     

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