why i think C3C sucks

[OblivionsCall]

Lol and here i was last game building coastal fortresses like mad cause i was playing an archipelago...truth is AI never even got close enough to my cities to see if they even did anything.

 

[Ataxerxes]

Raliuven brings up perhaps the worst exploit of all in PTW and vanilla - the dual core. I like SoZ if I can build it but I think the dual core was much more of an exploit. The FP was so powerful in PTW. For most of my games the SoZ is great to build but I don't regard the Knights Templar as that strong a wonder.

I do regard Agricultural as the best trait but I'm not sure if it's any more unbalanced than Industrious was before it was nerfed.

However, everything feels differently for different people. I think tRicKy will be in the minority but no change will suit everybody.

 

[scratchthepitch]

Lol and here i was last game building coastal fortresses like mad cause i was playing an archipelago...truth is AI never even got close enough to my cities to see if they even did anything.

I remember starting out preparing for the worst on those arch maps, and finding the worst that ever happened was an AI civ sauntered up with a few ships and dropped maybe 3 units on my shore.

 

[Raliuven]

I remember starting out preparing for the worst on those arch maps, and finding the worst that ever happened was an AI civ sauntered up with a few ships and dropped maybe 3 units on my shore.

And all of them were warriors!

 

[darski]

And all of them were warriors!

Why that is just so mean of you... sometimes they send an archer

 

[Quintillus]

I agree with the armies. And I'll add another small annoyance: that the "Clear pollution" hotkey (Ctrl+P) was changed to "Clear Damage" (Ctrl+D). This probably was done since craters aren't pollution, but it's annoying that it's the same shortcut as "Start diplomacy". So if you have a Warrior selected, you get the Diplomacy window, but if you forget and have a Worker selected, he will run off to clear pollution when you might have wanted him to build a railroad or whatnot.

In my latest game the AI sort of used artillery somewhat offensively, but that was PTW. It still wasn't enough to really count, but maybe that is slightly better in PTW. Either way it's not better enough to make a difference.

And I agree that Ironclads are kind of useless now that they're their own tech. I don't know if I ever research that tech.

But most of the items you dislike don't bother me. And I like some of Conquests' new features - useful specialists being just one example. So, all in all, I almost always play Conquests - the occasional Classic GOTM is about the only time I ever play PTW.

 

[vmxa]

It was done because of swamps I would guess. We had carters, but once they added swamps in C3C it was changed.

 

[marceagleye]

The AI does indeed use artillery offensively, albeit in defensive fashion. If your unit(s) are within artillery range of an AI enemy city (they always keep artillery in the cities), they will fire at you. But never will they stack dozens of artillery heavily defended and move them within firing range of one of your cities. Only Human Intelligence is capable of such a thing. It may be, however, that you must play at a certain difficulty or above to see the AI do this. And for the ironclads, before C3C you could build them after discovery of Steam Power. Too often, Magnetism was the last middle-age tech discovered, followed by Steam Power being the first industrial tech discovered, making frigates obsolete before you're able to churn out a half-dozen. I've even had games as a scientific civ where Steam Power was awarded as the free tech at the start of the industrial era immediately after my discovery of Magnetism, thus gaining the ability to build both frigates AND ironclads on the same turn. It makes perfect sense to me why this was changed. The age of sail was so short it was virtually non-existent. IMO the game is much better now.

 

[vmxa]

I have had the AI bring bombardment units and attack a town, but it is extremely uncommon. Even when they do, it will usually be one or two of them.

 

[Quintillus]

PTW had craters? I pretty much went from Vanilla (no craters) to Conquets (craters), so maybe I missed it, but at least in the current GOTM, bombers and shellings did not create craters. Maybe that's a mod from the standard game. Whatever the reason, though, I've sent more workers to clear pollution since Conquests came out...

Also, I thought swamps were the reason behind the "Clear Jungle" to "Clear Wetlands" change, rather than the pollution/damage one. IIRC that also change a shortcut from Ctrl+J to Ctrl+W, but that didn't cause any side effects that I ever noticed.

marceagleye, in my last game, the AI did not keep their artillery in cities. They actually brought it out to the borders of my land and shelled me with it. Granted, they only brought one each time, but it was progress in the realm of the AI. If they'd brought fifteen or twenty they could have done some real damage - but that's probably beyond the AI even on a good day.

You do raise a point about the Age of Sail, though. Logically, Ironclads shouldn't appear at the same time or very soon after Frigates.

I think Conquests did improve the late-game naval situation regardless. Destroyers are faster than Battleships and can see subs, and IIRC Cruisers were introduced in Conquests as an in-between. The destroyers/battleship change in particular I prefer.

I'm skeptical of the decision to remove Radio as its own tech in Conquests, but technically that's Conquests 1.00 vs 1.20+, not necessarily Conquests vs. PTW.

 

[vmxa]

I think you are right, now that you mention it.

 

[marceagleye]

Quintillus I'm glad to know the AI uses artillery this way. Unfortunately I still have yet to see it. But thanks for the correction. Seeing AI use artillery in the field sounds exciting. After I graduate past Emporer level maybe I will.

 

[Raliuven]

The AI is more likely to use bombardment from frigates en masse than anything else (until bombers) - so you need to watch units along the coast, particularly armies - the AI frigates will bombard them down and then attack them. The AI will mass its navy and as most players don't bother with naval warfare, the AI frigate will rule the seas for a while.

 

[Sir Sam Vimes]

PTW sucks big time. C3C is pretty good, especially considering when it was made.

I've yet to come across an AI worthy of the 'I' in any game

The scenarios are great fun

Mod! That's what CFC is here for! Download mods that work around bugs, change the gameplay etc.

My only problem is the 31-civ limit...

Its better than IV or V

IV would be better were it not for the childish graphics, the knock-off RTS-style interface, the lack of historical accuracy... (see 'Civ IV Complete - First Impressions' link in my sig if you want my pros and cons and a comparasion between IV and C3C). CiV just sucks

 

[Spoonwood]

The AI is more likely to use bombardment from frigates en masse than anything else (until bombers) - so you need to watch units along the coast, particularly armies - the AI frigates will bombard them down and then attack them. The AI will mass its navy and as most players don't bother with naval warfare, the AI frigate will rule the seas for a while.

If I want to get rid of AI ships for some reason, then for any frigates that pop along my coast I'll often try to bombard down to 1 HP with cannons. Then either I'll try and take out such frigates with my own frigates, with galleons, or hope an ally does the work for me.

 

[Raliuven]

If I want to get rid of AI ships for some reason, then for any frigates that pop along my coast I'll often try to bombard down to 1 HP with cannons. Then either I'll try and take out such frigates with my own frigates, with galleons, or hope an ally does the work for me.

While I agree with the theory, it is sometimes harder in practice. I guess I was talking more about a line of advance (offense) where you may not have a safe port to harbor your frigate on the IBT (or the 'safe' harbor is a flip risk) or have the movement/resources to bring up a stack of artillery and cover it.

I don't know what it is - maybe the distances in water and the limited movement of ships - but I rarely see an AI vs AI naval battle and I've never seen a large battle between the AIs.

 

[scratchthepitch]

I don't know what it is - maybe the distances in water and the limited movement of ships - but I rarely see an AI vs AI naval battle and I've never seen a large battle between the AIs.

I've seen quite a few AI vs AI naval battles. Most of the time it is just a couple of ships, but there has been a few larger battles. That's only what I could see which were near. I mostly played on huge continent and archipelago maps, so there were always a lot of ships around.

I've done a lot of modding ship unit stats. The first change I made was give the ships a bombard equal to their attack and discovered the AI almost always only bombarded other ships after that. So I lowered the bombard figure and the AI then started using their regular attack. If the AI ships were weaker, they would bombard the stronger enemy ship till it sank, rather than risk a regular attack. That made using individual ships risky for a player when an AI had ships about. The AI usually built a lot of ships in those games and quickly colonized the islands on the map. They would usually group 2-4 ships as a "fleet" when at war. Often, it would be 1 escort and the rest transport types. If they had escorts, they were pretty good at escorting the transports. Warships usually were sent in small 2-4 ship fleets, also. After a war has been going on, and I had destroyed their ships nearby, then the AI were not so well organized. Then they tended to send the warships over piecemeal as they got built, rather than organize them into fleets. I'm not really sure if there was a definite AI strategy to make fleets with warships (no transports), or if it was because they had a lot of ships in the area and the move pattern was coincidental because of the go-to programing.

 

[del62]

I think in the early game conquests is easier than PTW, with things like the republic slingshot.

Later on the duel core of PTW and ring city placement give extra power to the human, although there is some compensation in c3c with specialists

Armies are definately overpowered, more so in C3C.

I have some sympathy with tR1cKy as far as the HOF is concerned, because for most HOF attempts the extra power that C3C give cannot be matched in PTW,

 

[MysteryX]

It seems to me that the map generator for C3C is a lot different than PTW, for the worse. PTW usually gave balanced maps where most start positions were playable. C3C comes up with some wild maps where quite a few start positions are just screwed and severe imbalances in the resource distribution.

 

[vmxa]

Additional resources and terrain types probably made it more difficult in C3C. Just the improvements to the interface alone made PTW inferior. Add in the MP and it is not even close.