Why I'm Forking C2C

[ls612]

Yes, the title is not lying. I am indeed making a fork of C2C, called New Horizons. It is both a fork in design and development philosophies, both of which I have had my issues with over the past few months. I’ll endeavor to explain my reasons here and hopefully not anger anyone too much.

Design

The thing that attracted me to C2C in the first place was that it was the biggest mod out there, with the most stuff in it. This was back in V14 or so, when I switched from AND, which was at that point only mostly dead (although that is enough for Miracle JosEPh and a couple others to resurrect it apparently ). I liked the immense variety of stuff that was in the mod, and how games could go on forever (which can be a problem as well, but I’ll touch on that later). When I first joined the team I mostly agreed with the design decisions, and had a relatively different mindset about the mod design in general. The change started with the Azure incident. I saw then what could happen from unbridled design with little or no development controls implemented and the damage it could cause. That blew over for the most part, but changed my way of thinking about the mod. In my opinion, too much effort has gone into just adding more and more stuff into C2C without seeing if it actually makes things fun, because when it comes down to it this is a game, and we play it to have fun. A side effect of this has also been the development issues we have had, but that is going off on a tangent somewhat. I feel that C2C is coming fast to the point where it will collapse under it’s own weight, not from a technical viewpoint, but from a gameplay and balance viewpoint. Simply put, with the Combat Mod, and ever more changes to limit options in the game (more early , complex traits to name a few), it is becoming clear to me that C2C is on the wrong track. And I feel that the best solution to that is to make a fork with a different design philosophy.

My Design Philosophy:

My design philosophy for New Horizons will be both simple and complicated. I want to only make things that add to the fun of the game at the same time they add to the complexity. For instance, the Crime effects on Traits do add a good amount of complexity to the mod, but don’t make it any more fun, as they are counter-intuitive and punish you out of the blue. The same complexity could be added in a way that both makes sense to the average civ player on first sight and is rewarding and fun, while still serving the same balance goals.
One major change you will notice in New Horizons is that all Farm and Mine buildings auto-build. This exemplifies the design philosophy of New Horizons. I have kept the same content, but made it so that it does not need to be microed, something that is not fun, but instead makes a player choose his city sites more strategically, something that is more fun. You get the same bonuses and balance, but one is more enjoyable. It rewards the player for good city founding placement, instead of punishing them with more micro.

What This means for the Future:
I will do some more stuff for C2C (finish Airplanes for one) still, and merge that into New Horizons. I will also work on Koshling’s new project when we get that started, as it seems like the most long term goal. But in the short term I will primarily focus on New Horizons, and merge stuff in C2C that I like into it. I’d also invite people to work on New Horizons by PM, as I am pretty sure I am not the only one who feels this way.

I hope this won’t be taken angrily or bitterly, I have laid out my reasoning as plainly as possible.

For all interested, you can see (and soon download) New Horizons here.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Definitely interested in this. I'm very much in favor of development over design, and trimming some of the micro fat from C2C sounds good. The recent change to the Housing buildings, making them autobuild, has made it much more enjoyable, and I assume the farm and mine change will, too.

I will say that on the specific change you mentioned, I *very rarely* build all the mines, though, as they generate excessive ill health for, in many cases, trivial amounts of gold or hammers. I'd hate to feel like I had to build around otherwise appealing production sites to avoid the poorer-quality mine buildings.

Of course, currently some of the unhealth in C2C comes from Crime and Disease. C2C had major surplus health until the property system was implemented. As such, maybe it's less of an issue than I'm imagining it to be.

 

[ls612]

Definitely interested in this. I'm very much in favor of development over design, and trimming some of the micro fat from C2C sounds good. The recent change to the Housing buildings, making them autobuild, has made it much more enjoyable, and I assume the farm and mine change will, too.

I will say that on the specific change you mentioned, I *very rarely* build all the mines, though, as they generate excessive ill health for, in many cases, trivial amounts of gold or hammers. I'd hate to feel like I had to build around otherwise appealing production sites to avoid the poorer-quality mine buildings.

Of course, currently some of the unhealth in C2C comes from Crime and Disease. C2C had major surplus health until the property system was implemented. As such, maybe it's less of an issue than I'm imagining it to be.

I did trim some from other areas to compensate, although I haven't playtested it too much. The download should be available tomorrow afternoon.

 

[ls612]

Until further notice I won't be making this unfortunately. More to come on this space tomorrow.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@ls612

I am sorry to hear this. However I understand how you feel. A few questions ...

1. Will this be under the C2C Modmod section?

2. Besides the aircraft stuff will you help with C2C units still? Specifically the later era stuff? I have a lot I want to still do, however my progress will significantly slow if I have to do them all myself without any help.

3. If the combat mod was not added would you not fork or is this independent of that?

4. When did you start feeling this way? Was the "Big Freeze" not a help to the balance and organization to the mod?

 

[Il Principe]

As a mere player I think this sad. I understand your reasoning, I just don´t share it. I happen to LIKE micromangment and complications, including all the points that seem problematic to you.
But I totally agree with youthat, if you feel that the direction C2C is taking is contrary to your own gaming preferences, then doing your own line of work is the thing to do.
Modding is a hobby, and why spend hours on somethign you feel is going the wrong way?

So good luck with your new project.

 

[dusckr87]

As a mere player I think this sad. I understand your reasoning, I just don´t share it. I happen to LIKE micromangment and complications, including all the points that seem problematic to you.

I'm somewhat on the fence on this. I like micromanagement as well (and I never automate units or building queues), but I also think that C2C is adding things that don't really add to gameplay.

 

[Mouthwash]

Why don't you see how it goes and maybe do a remerge if you find you can agree on certain things?

 

[Hydromancerx]

I'm somewhat on the fence on this. I like micromanagement as well (and I never automate units or building queues), but I also think that C2C is adding things that don't really add to gameplay.

Such as?

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Such as?

I can't speak for him, but for me (as someone who likes a lot of content, but NOT a lot of micro):

Buildings as a requirement for building units, and thus, for upgrading them.

This goes back to AND and it's never stopped being annoying. If you had to have one of the buildings somewhere in your empire, that would be one thing. But needing to move troops to a specific location to upgrade them, and only some of the time, was old before it was young.

It's especially bad now that there's an incentive to upgrade crimefighting units, though. Marching (or in some cases SAILING) every single Town Watchman to my production city because it's the only place I'm going to build a Barracks, then doing it again for every single Guard, is excruciating. (Thankfully, I don't have to do it for Sheriffs because the Sheriff's Office is actually worth building in multiple cities.)

Too Many Dependencies

In BtS, there was no resource required to build Musketmen. In LoR and RoM, Sulphur was required. I dislike the "lock the core military units for an era" concept, but okay. Now, Firearms are required (for some units, but not all), and then Ammunition is required (again for some but not all), so you have to first get a resource, then build one or more buildings to make it usable, and then you may or may not be able to upgrade, depending on whether the specific unit you're upgrading also has a building requirement.

This is true of some of the non-military resources, too. Rope Weaver's Hut, Sail Maker and Shipwright could easily be cut down to just Shipwright (or no building at all). Of course, RWH and SM require a manufactured resource themselves. It takes what was originally a 0 step process and makes it a 4 or 5 step process, for no particular gain. Because RWH, SM and Shipwright are all +Hammer buildings with no gold cost or unhealth, they inevitably get built in every city capable of building them even if you never intend to put a ship there.

Another example is locking buildings behind Storage Pits/Barter Posts/Trading Posts. I have to build a Storage Pit in a city that won't grow for 300 turns because it's required to put a Stone Tools Maker there. I have to build a Trading Post in a Production specialized city that will never be used for its commerce value because Wheelwright is locked behind Trading Post and I want to make Chariots.

Want a Jewelry? In AND you needed to have Gems, Gold or Silver somewhere in your empire, and then you built a Jewelry. (It was arguably OP, but that's an entirely separate issue.) In current C2C, you need to not only have a gem mine of some kind on the map, you need to have one in your city radius, then build a corresponding building in your city (why?), then build a Gemcutter. Oh, it requires a Trading Post, too. Then, potentially somewhere else, you need to have a metal resource, followed by a metal mine building, followed by a Forge, followed by a bullion-making building. Then, and only then, can you build a Jewelry. It was a 2 step process and is now a 9 step one.

Until recently I would have cited the Housing buildings, but those, thankfully, have been moved to autobuild and no longer clog my build queues indefinitely.

There's still a lot of fun to be had with the mod, and build queues ablate the worst aspects, but that is some crazy bloat.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@MoogleEmpMog

Thanks for the feedback. Much of what you said is actually what attracted me to RoM. I liked the fact that units and buildings had dependency chains. Which is why it was expanded even more in C2C. So yeah, that stuff is very core to C2C and I would like to keep it that way in C2C (ls612 can do what he pleases in his own mod).

 

[bill2505]

I can't speak for him, but for me (as someone who likes a lot of content, but NOT a lot of micro):

A)Buildings as a requirement for building units, and thus, for upgrading them.




B)Too Many Dependencies

for A i disagree with you. not only that but personally i thing it needs more of it. being able to build units in a 1 pop city without barracks is

B i dissagree with this too even if i agree with you that some things need refinement
of course this is a personal taste

 

[JosEPh_II]

Only building barracks in one town isn't good play style for this mod. A barracks built in every town does need a Town Watch or Outpost building to offset the crime but after that you're good to go.

As for the rest, well that's how the mod has been designed and shaped.

JosEPh

 

[ls612]

@ls612

I am sorry to hear this. However I understand how you feel. A few questions ...

1. Will this be under the C2C Modmod section?

2. Besides the aircraft stuff will you help with C2C units still? Specifically the later era stuff? I have a lot I want to still do, however my progress will significantly slow if I have to do them all myself without any help.

3. If the combat mod was not added would you not fork or is this independent of that?

4. When did you start feeling this way? Was the "Big Freeze" not a help to the balance and organization to the mod?

1. I've been arguing with SO about this, he is really intent on making me put it up as a modmod for C2C. However, I plan to release this as it's own modpack, so I think we need to have some discussion about the exact nature of New Horizons.

2. Later Era units, I'm mostly satisfied with how they are now. There isn't much more for me to do before Multi-Maps, and I don't know when if ever those are coming. I'd like to get then into New Horizons, but that is way past my ability level. I'd be happy to design the spaceships for C2C though.

3. It was several things, the combat mod being one of them. I have felt for a few months now that the gameplay and balance in the mod is going in the wrong direction. It has really been contrary to my ideal design philosophy. It started really with Praetyre's building changes, which at the time didn't make too much difference but now I'm starting to see why others protested them. They had next to no design input, and I think they needlessly complicated things. I also got very upset when SO repremanded me for my Trait changes. I saw that there were some underlying balance issues, and I didn't really want to push the changes without further consultation, but the maintenance bug forced my hand. I feel like my balance concerns (and the concerns of JosEPh and Vokarya) are heard and ignored for the most part. I do not like where SgtSlick and Thunderbrd are taking the traits now. The Civics are the other thing. I do not like how they are being needlessly redone again (it's only been 3 months since the last time they were redone).

Another reason I am making my own project is so that I can try and get others who are really good at SDK stuff but don't like the C2C direction to join me. Koshling and AIAndy have both been gone for over a month now, and it seems that that won't change anytime soon. That has in my eyes been one of the greatest drags on C2C lately, along with the Civic changes and the Combat Mod. I'd also be happy if Koshling or AIAndy wanted to help with New Horizons when they get time.

Third thing about my future plans, I do want to work on Koshling's new project when he starts that, it sounds like it would be great fun.

4. As I said in the OP, it started with Azure. I considered making a fork then, but things solved themselves as Azure left. The Long Freeze helped immensely, but a lot of that progress is being undone by the Civics and by the Combat Mod, both of which I think will ruin C2C at some point. I just wanted to make sure that I had a nice way out of that. Vokarya will also be helping me on this, and DH may as well, he's suggested making a fork before. I haven't heard back from him yet on this. I don't know if anyone else will be joining me.

 

[Hydromancerx]

1. Personally I think you should start under the modmod section like C2C started in the RoM modmod section. If it become successfully enough then it can follow the same course as C2C and become its own separate mod with its own sub-forum.

4. Was there a reason why I was not asked? This thread is the first time I was aware of this besides the internal issue between you and Thunderbrd. I feel kind of betrayed.

While I do not always agree with what is going on in C2C we have been a team and I have tried to respect the others in their various projects. Who am I to say that they cannot do their stuff if they allow me to do mine?

I feel that you should at least try to work out your issues with those on the team before splitting off to your own project. C2C needs you and your absence from the project and subsequent split off from the project could kill C2C.

We are already hurting from the inactivity of AI Andy and Koshling, JosEPh constant bashing of the project is not helping moral and then the fight with you and T-brd did not help either. Not to mention the new people on the team have had to defend for themselves without much guidance. And the SO has been away with RL so much I never know when to contact him anymore. No to mention DH always threatening to leave each month.

Seems like everyone is just abandoning ship when we need to team up the most. This is totally not fair to those of us who are trying to save C2C. :suicide:

EDIT: I mean why should I even mod anymore if everyone is just going to leave the team?

 

[ls612]

4. Was there a reason why I was not asked? This thread is the first time I was aware of this besides the internal issue between you and Thunderbrd. I feel kind of betrayed.

I certainly was not trying to betray you or hurt your feelings. I do think that your design strategy has seemed to be more on the side of "add more stuff for the sake of more stuff". You are welcome to work on New Horizons if you want, but I thought that you may feel too constrained by my design aims. You have lots of creativity, and that is very good. But I don't know if you'd like the direction I plan on taking New Horizons.

As for C2C and your feelings about it's future, I think it is already dead, or nearly so. I did not want to get here, and this hurts me too. I won't have nearly the resources for development on New Horizons that C2C had, unless Koshling or AIAndy or someone else good at SDK joins (looking at you God-Emperor). I tried my level best to save C2C and pull things together, as I recognized the issues we were facing too. But after three months we are more fragmented than ever, and in my opinion still moving in the wrong direction even after all of my efforts to change it. I am doing this because I'd like to have as controlled a path forward as possible, as opposed to a chaotic collapse with no clear future path.

 

[strategyonly]

1. Personally I think you should start under the modmod section like C2C started in the RoM modmod section. If it become successfully enough then it can follow the same course as C2C and become its own separate mod with its own sub-forum.

4. Was there a reason why I was not asked? This thread is the first time I was aware of this besides the internal issue between you and Thunderbrd. I feel kind of betrayed.

While I do not always agree with what is going on in C2C we have been a team and I have tried to respect the others in their various projects. Who am I to say that they cannot do their stuff if they allow me to do mine?


Seems like everyone is just abandoning ship when we need to team up the most. This is totally not fair to those of us who are trying to save C2C.

EDIT: I mean why should I even mod anymore if everyone is just going to leave the team?

I agree with YOU Hydro, the first i heard of anything like this is when ls612 TRIED to start his own mod and i will have NONE of that without going through the modmod section just like AND was and STILL is. Just like all those modmod's in FfH2.
You can take "short" pieces, less than 10% of a mod but thats it otherwise the mod belongs to whom ever it was made for UNLESS you had/have permission from the author like I did with almost ALL the modders on CFC, all the way back for 6 years now.

Yes almost all the main XML is done, and it now needs ALOT of SDK work, but that why you have teams and team efforts, and Koshling is NOT gone either is AIAndy. SO please stop spreading "rumors" about that pls.

I really think this was done rudely and underhandedly without consent from anyone in the C2C Team itself.

I am going to STAY the C2C leader and nothing is going to change that.

Now with a thread like this "we" at C2C will lose over 50% of it persona because they think we are just fighting SO thx alot. . .

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

This year has been bad RL wise for me. Mum is good after her stroke - they have even let her drive again. We have been discussing the idea that we should move closer to each other, but not too close. Unfortunately my choice of area in Australia I would want to move to burnt down last week.

My main gripe with C2C is the trade system. To fix it would require a major adjustment to buildings and some new concepts in the SDK.

My gripe with the redoing of building requirements was that it did not go far enough and have the bottleneck buildings "storage pit", "barter post" and "trading post" become free to every new city shortly after they were discovered. I can also see some issues in the industrial/modern era but since I have only made it that far once I am not sure if it is a problem with my play style or not.

 

[JosEPh_II]

....JosEPh constant bashing of the project is not helping moral....

You've known all along that I'm straight forward with what I think and see. I'm blunt and frank, I'm not a politician or an ambassador with smooth talk. When I see something wrong, out of place, or commonplace I speak up. You all have known this for a Long Long time. Hate me for it if you will, that's up to you.

My post about C2C about to do a hammerhead stall out is how I see this mod right now. Internal disarray, finger pointing, and being oblivious to what is going on, because you can only "see" what you are personally doing in the Mod.

To use a metaphor, this mod is like a sponge. It has been absorbing any and everything it can. But like any sponge if the water it's picking up is dirty, it becomes dirty too. And it then becomes in need of a good wringing out and rinse. It's time, imho, to wring and rinse. You as the Team need to make some decisions Together as to what needs to be done. Where the squeeze needs to be applied, and No Ones work is more sacrosanct than anothers. You been going in 14 different directions for sometime now. Pull it in, get in line with each other, and right the ship. It's listing, badly. Stop being solo artists in a 7 man band, each playing a different tune. Stop changing what works just because you can and will.

And if you want to be pointing fingers at someone, sure go ahead and use me. It's been done before and will probably happen again. But understand this, I'm just a reflection of your product.

JosEPh

 

[Hydromancerx]

Sorry Joe, I should not have said that. I was just a bit pissed off at him for wanting to leave. I know your comments, however blunt, actually do help in the long run. I was just having a bad day today.