Why I'm Forking C2C

[Faustmouse]

What I see could make C2C more fun because it reduces too much micro:

- Farms and Mines (Buildings) should be build automatically (they are basically for free due their low costs)

- Improved City AI Governer (IE, first build all prod buildings, beginning with the cheapest, than all food buildings, and than click a bottom that specialice your city: give the highest priority to gold buildings or science or culture (you should be able to change the specification)

- Give automated workers priorities, like "if there is a forest, build a hybrid treefarm. if you can't, build a lumbermill"; "if there is a mountain, build a mine" "if there is a ressource, connect it.

- make some bottleneck buildings (or other buildings) free on a certain tech

- crime should be able to counter with buildings with differnt levels. Like "Townwatch I: cost X, reduces crime by 10", "Townwatch II, cost 2X, reduces crime by 20, requires and replaces TW I", "TW III: Cost 3X and reduces crime by 30, requires and replaces TW II" etc. The building would get more and more expensive, and the crime reduce effect would increase less than this. Or make the cost X, 2X, 4X, 8X etc... But this could be too much increasement.

- Same with crime for diseases [It might be hard to find a good balance, but you guys are extremely good at balancing! ]

That was what first came into my mind, I will post more if I have more ideas.

 

[strategyonly]

- make some bottleneck buildings (or other buildings) free on a certain tech

- Same with crime for diseases [It might be hard to find a good balance, but you guys are extremely good at balancing! ]

Now that can be dont, if done correctly.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Stop being solo artists in a 7 man band, each playing a different tune. Stop changing what works just because you can and will.

JosEPh

I don't see this as the case. Yes we have differing areas that interest us but usually we interact with each other to get the ideas to work together. Sometimes we go of on a tangent and I agree no new or major game play stuff should go in after about half way to the next release to give us all time o balance and integrate the ideas. That is our biggest failing.

 

[strategyonly]

I don't see this as the case. Yes we have differing areas that interest us but usually we interact with each other to get the ideas to work together. Sometimes we go of on a tangent and I agree no new or major game play stuff should go in after about half way to the next release to give us all time o balance and integrate the ideas. That is our biggest failing.

I agree here also. . . .SO

 

[Mouthwash]

Why can't you simply find things that you agree on? This entire thing is ridiculous- why is it so hard to agree on a simple design philosophy?

Whatever it is, I don't think that making a different mod with the changes you want is helping anything.

 

[strategyonly]

Why can't you simply find things that you agree on? This entire thing is ridiculous- why is it so hard to agree on a simple design philosophy?

Whatever it is, I don't think that making a different mod with the changes you want is helping anything.

Quite nicely and profoundly great statement

 

[Mouthwash]

Quite nicely and profoundly great statement

Here's an idea- have long, detailed, debates on the ideas/discussions thread. I find that communicating things in an orderly manner, with each others' ideas being fully laid out, helps immensely with objectively determining the best course of action (do you guys even do this at all?).

For instance, SO, what do you think is disagreeable about ls612's design philosophy? Why can't it all be implemented in your vision for C2C?

 

[ls612]

Here's an idea- have long, detailed, debates on the ideas/discussions thread.

Don't we already have a bunch of these?

 

[Mouthwash]

Don't we already have a bunch of these?

I'm not sure what your differences are precisely, but you need to communicate your ideas clearly and thoroughly. If you don't like the combat mod, start a thread and put each individual argument out there.

Example: I don't like the combat mod because

1. We have many other priorities (list the priorities and why they should come before the combat mod).

2. It will make the game chaotic. All of the promotions and buildings that we've developed will have to be completely redone. (list examples, and for each example you list, try and think of a COMPROMISE rather than saying you can't ever accept it. You won't fix anything by not cooperating at all).

3. I dislike/disagree with certain elements or promotions to be introduced. (list them with details).

See how this works? My examples were really very short. Realistically, I would say two to four paragraphs for each point would do. Then other team members can address them POINT BY POINT. God, no wonder people like Joseph get ignored- if you can't see anybody else's viewpoint, then obviously you'll bicker to no end. You need to make the debates integral to the decision process; these are the methods of rationality.

 

[Hydromancerx]

After the conversation in the chat room today with ls612, Thunderbrd and Vokarya, I have come to terms with ls612's derision. Whatever he decides to do I am fine with. No hard feeling and I wish him the best of luck with whatever he puts his minds to. He is a creative and talented individual who can do whatever he sets his mind to. I hope even if he decides to leave C2C that we can still be friends.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I'm not sure what your differences are precisely, but you need to communicate your ideas clearly and thoroughly. If you don't like the combat mod, start a thread and put each individual argument out there.

Example: I don't like the combat mod because

1. We have many other priorities (list the priorities and why they should come before the combat mod).

2. It will make the game chaotic. All of the promotions and buildings that we've developed will have to be completely redone. (list examples, and for each example you list, try and think of a COMPROMISE rather than saying you can't ever accept it. You won't fix anything by not cooperating at all).

3. I dislike/disagree with certain elements or promotions to be introduced. (list them with details).

See how this works? My examples were really very short. Realistically, I would say two to four paragraphs for each point would do. Then other team members can address them POINT BY POINT. God, no wonder people like Joseph get ignored- if you can't see anybody else's viewpoint, then obviously you'll bicker to no end. You need to make the debates integral to the decision process; these are the methods of rationality.

For the record I do not get ignored. Disagreed with many times yes. And what makes you think I don't see others view points?

If I'd have been ignored, as you say, many of the Options in the Mod today would Not have been Options. While not officially a team member I am friends with almost everyone of them. And have had dialogue with some of them in CFC since 2007 starting with RoM. And then SO's Next War Mod which became C2C thru RoM and then AND.

So stop denigrating me young one, it's not appreciated and it's disrespectful.

Thank you
JosEPh

 

[Civ Fuehrer]

@ls612
Automation is what I had in mind for the galactic era before multi-maps was decided upon. I knew that this game would have enough on its hands gameplay-wise and so the compromise was to simply have the moon and mars with a galactic map (At first, not quite sure what it is now). I know that managing one planet is tough enough without two others piled on top, hence the automatic queue builds that the player would assemble. The galactic era would prove a new and unique experience if pulled off correctly, but with too many features as a map for every planet, it would drain the player and not be very fun. This of course, is what I was mainly fighting against MrAzure about, trying to keep not only the feel of plausible technologies, but to keep the gameplay fun and straightforward enough to ease the player into without having him ram headfirst into a wall of galactic era techs and ideas as they do vary quite drastically from prehistoric to transhuman eras.

Now about this design philosophy, I believe that what you want and what I want are rather similar. Unfortunately, it's rather difficult in a game like Civilization - not because of its old engine, but because of the core aspects that identify Civilization from other games (such as turns, tiles and micromanagement). The latter one can be helped though. Let's use the Jeweler for example (I call it Jeweler because Jewelry is the product). In a perfect game with a balance between micromanagement and automation, I want to build a Jeweler in city A, so I find some gold or silver and place a mine on it within the boundaries of city B. Next step, pump some money into the Metallurgy in city C which smelts iron so it can upgrade and produce smelted and purified gold/silver. These gold and silver ingots would make it possible to create a Jeweler in any city. Want to put some gems on the jewelry to increase sales of the Jeweler? Find a source of gems or diamonds, put a mine on it within the boundaries of city D with a gemcutter. This gemcutter would then sell its gems to the Jeweler in city A and with each reacting building in the different cities, their gold income would increase. Where are the balanced downsides? In the mines where the workers die young of coal dust intoxication. These workers would affect the city they're in with unhappiness from poor-paying jobs for a lot of work. The mine tile itself would maintain the unhealthiness without spread to the city. This of course would work great in a game like Age of Empires, but in Civilization, there needs to be shortcuts because the player isn't managing a small group of villages, they're controlling countries. So, what happens if you want to build a Jeweler in city A? Simple. Find some metal tag it, and build a jeweler in a city. The mine will auto-build when tagged and then find some gems, tag it, and build a gemcutter nearby when that's finished. The Jeweler will then have an increased sales with the gemcutter in the other city. The way C2C is now, dependencies are all or nothing with no options in-between. Hell, with the right civics, all of that should be autonomous because the people do it and not the government. The player would have no say in anything that just happened.

@JosEPh_II
Kudos. For a fan and friend you've seen nearly everything from RoM to C2C and have put up with a lot of bull over the years, yet you've hung in there, watching, playing and giving feedback to the modders. I believe that as a 3rd party, you have the right to call us on our sh*t simply because you have no ties with what's being put in it. You have no self-generated bias in what's being put into this mod pack.

@ls612
I do believe StrategyOnly is right in saying you need permission to make a new modpack from other's work, however making this a modmod wouldn't.

@StrategyOnly
If I'm not mistaken, HydromancerX was the one to ask Afforess if C2C (or something similar to C2C) could be made from his modmod. Hell for the first few months I thought Hydro was the one in charge of C2C because he's the one that talked with Afforess about it. And on that same note, I do believe that no single person can really be the leader and final voice of this modpack as really it is that everyone who has contributed in one way or another and if anyone would be the leader, I would have to say Hydro is. Sure he only does XML and some art, but it's because of his enthusiasm from parting from AND that this got off the ground in the first place in my opinion. Furthermore, Hydro is the single most person who people have asked if something can be implemented. I know that you put together the prehistoric era with Hydro's help, you implemented the galactic techs that I made - with Hydro's help. Koshling and AIAndy put together the DLL from Afforess' time. ls612 balanced the gamespeeds and I put in those nukes.

If you really do want to fill the role of leader of C2C like Afforess was of AND, and Zappara was of RoM, then you really need to step up your talents as those two made the majority of those mods from their own sweat.

As far as I'm concerned, you're just as much the leader of C2C as Hydro, Koshling, AIAndy, ls612, DH, or I are and to be brutally honest, I think that because you are not the absolute leader of C2C that ls612 has all the right to make a modmod of C2C without your explicit permission. I say modmod and not a modpack because he would undeniably require everyone's permission to do so - not just yours.

 

[strategyonly]

@ls612
I do believe StrategyOnly is right in saying you need permission to make a new modpack from other's work, however making this a modmod wouldn't.

@StrategyOnly

As far as I'm concerned, you're just as much the leader of C2C as Hydro, Koshling, AIAndy, ls612, DH, or I are and to be brutally honest, I think that because you are not the absolute leader of C2C that ls612 has all the right to make a modmod of C2C without your explicit permission. I say modmod and not a modpack because he would undeniably require everyone's permission to do so - not just yours.

I have never brought up the idea of being a leader, before this "misplaced power struggle" appeared in the C2C threads, and its ALL one sided.
Infact i informed ls612 if he wanted to make a 100 modmods of C2C he is welcome to BUT only under the C2C modmod section. Just like AND was and ALL of the FfH2 modmods, see everyone is just getting ONE sided on this issued, making it feel like everyone is leaving WHEN infact NONE are, i have talked to all of them, and they infact LIKE it the way it presently is, EXCEPT for this ONE person who is causing ALL the problems. Again its all one sided.
I hate the word leader anyways, to me its a mutual adventure and that how this has been run SINCE the beginning, and only took effect, just like HE said because he did like the way i informed him to keep OUT of other modders areas, and just give them IDEA/Suggestion, not to just re-do what that person has put months into with his changed, just tee'd ALOT of people off is all, so your not reading into it all, because I get the tee'd off PM's from people.

And i dont like talking about this stuff out in the public, as you people get the wrong impression that way (no offense to you). PM's are the best way.

You''ll will see real soon what i have been talking about in the modmod area, if something that was supposed to get off the ground today like planed anyways.

How can anyone even thik i would do something like that when my motto is "Just Have Fun."

 

[Mouthwash]

For the record I do not get ignored. Disagreed with many times yes. And what makes you think I don't see others view points?

If I'd have been ignored, as you say, many of the Options in the Mod today would Not have been Options. While not officially a team member I am friends with almost everyone of them. And have had dialogue with some of them in CFC since 2007 starting with RoM. And then SO's Next War Mod which became C2C thru RoM and then AND.

So stop denigrating me young one, it's not appreciated and it's disrespectful.

Thank you
JosEPh

Sorry, that's just the impression I got from ls612's post. Still, my political opinions are completely different from what they were two years ago, and only because I got into debating and realized how educational they could be. Everything can be reduced to logical axioms. To me, most of your disagreements stem from a simple failure to communicate. I don't know how well you do, but ls612 definitely could have tried my approach before decided to strike out on his own. It's ridiculous. If he thinks that there is a perfectly logical reason to have mines and farms autobuild, then he should be able to convince the others of it.

And this is why I'm such a big fan of capitalism. If this was a commercial product rather than a voluntary one, there would be incentive to continue working on the product, and incentive to make it accessible to players. The will of the fanbase (demand) would drive development, so to speak.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@Civ Fuehrer,
Thank you for your kind and generous words.

@SO,
This is just part of the process of getting C2C back on an even keel. It is unpleasant, but like a train going down the track you can't avoid what gets on the track, you either push thru or derail. I have faith in you and your leadership and you will push thru. Thank you for being a RoM/Next War thru C2C friend and bro.

JosEPh

 

[Randy_Lurka]

@Everyone,

As I understand it, you all built C2C to be the best mod ever; and as time has passed and more and more things have been implemented each of your views on 'the best mod ever', naturally, have differed from that of your peers; from my perspective thats a strength not a weakness - I've been lurking on these forums for quite some time now, and an avid C2C player for a lot longer; and although the over arching theme I get is one of constant bickering between the key modders - you guys always pull through. Stop trying to build 'the best mod ever', you already have! I imagine I can speak for hundreds if not thousands of people just like me who have no input into creating this mod, that you really, truly have built the best mod ever, let alone the best game ever. I personally haven't enjoyed a single other game of any shape or form since I first booted up C2C; it's all I look forward to all day.
Not saying you should throw in the towel now, far from it (I check to see if v.28 has come out at least twice a day.) I think what I'm trying to get across is - don't forget about the little guys like me.

That was the so wet - but so true

 

[GiuseppeIII]

I know I haven't posted here in a while and I'm not the most active member and give really little to no advice but I would just like to say how much this mod means to me and it would be really to bad if everybody started going off into different directions. I really started to think that this mod was going to become me image of the ultimate game ever with Koshlings new game engine. I no I have no authority to say this and I hope nobody takes this the wrong way but please pull it together, for me and the thousands nay tens and hundreds of thousands of fans of c2c. From casual players, to people whose every second of the day is that 'one more turn'. Thanks for making this mod as great as it is and it would be really the greatest if you could make it even better,

Thanks and sorry for the terrible formatting and writing of this post