Why is Ar-Rutbar excluded from the Arab flipzone?

Autumn Leaf

Since 1992
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Arab Exclusion.png
I'm curious as to why Ar-Rutbar (the square immediately west of Baghad/Babylon) is excluded from the Arab flipzone. I can understand excluding Tyre, but Ar-Rutbar has no history before the modern era. It's as if someone set out to exclude Babylon from the flip, and missed. But excluding Babylon makes no sense anyway; if the Babylon civ is alive and has Babylon as its capital, the city won't flip, and otherwise it should always flip. So why is Ar-Rutbar so exceptional?
 
The Arab flipzone is one that has always left me with a lot of questions. This is one of them.
 
What are the others?

I'll review it.
 
What are the others?

I'll review it.
Gaza and Sinai for one. Not a big deal as there's almost certainly no city there. But also the chunk out of South-eastern Egypt is a bit conspicuous unless there's historic reason for it. I've definitely missed a city there once or twice on flip because of that gap.
 
I'm curious as to why Ar-Rutbar (the square immediately west of Baghad/Babylon) is excluded from the Arab flipzone. I can understand excluding Tyre, but Ar-Rutbar has no history before the modern era. It's as if someone set out to exclude Babylon from the flip, and missed. But excluding Babylon makes no sense anyway; if the Babylon civ is alive and has Babylon as its capital, the city won't flip, and otherwise it should always flip. So why is Ar-Rutbar so exceptional?

I have also wondered... but then, I usually just played with the flip zones as they presented themselves because there's nothing I can change about it (except in WB).
For this specific question, a possible answer could be that a civ like Greece, Byzance or Rome can, this way, keep the food production from Rutbah for a few rounds longer than otherwise. And the Sinai missing from the flip zone hardly ever matters, except for civ-switchers who place a city in the Sinai spot to inherit a Suez canal with Arabia.

I can't help but place another point to review about Arabia here: Arabia in DoC, with its huge flip zone, is a NPCiv in my book, but that's a role they excel in. They start as a roaring lion and end as a slaughtered lamb way too soon, mostly due to a stronger Byzantium and the Seljuk invasion.
I played Arabia in the original RFC and it was pretty great. To be honest, I can hardly see a good reason for Arabia's enlarged flip zone in DoC, except that it provides the historically most accurate result right on time 620/640. In my opinion, with a little earlier spawn, a human player Arabia could position their starting army and do the begin of the Islamic conquest themselves, instead of having Egypt and Mesopotamia just fall into their laps and then mostly struggle to defend the advantage they were given.
But most important; if I ever decide to play Arabia again, I will disable the Moors in WB for that run. In my opinion, it was an especially bad move to include a strong Moor civilization but then require Arabia to fight against them. The Moors started as Arabian auxiliaries, and gradually took control of the Islamic conquest in Andalus/Maghreb.
Now, what I could imagine was playing Arabia with the Moors disabled, conquer all of Hispania, then enabling the Moors and adopt them as a vassal to rule those distant deserts for me. Too bad that this isn't possible under current rules.

Or, I'd favor a change in the UHV: Ensure that all cities [larger than size 4?] in Hispania, Mesopotamia, Persia and North-of-Equator Africa have adopted Islam by 1300, and are governed by a civ with Islamic state religion.
That way, the Moors would not be a major hindrance in the conquest of Spain+Portugal, but instead be a major asset once there is an open borders contract.
 
But most important; if I ever decide to play Arabia again, I will disable the Moors in WB for that run. In my opinion, it was an especially bad move to include a strong Moor civilization but then require Arabia to fight against them. The Moors started as Arabian auxiliaries, and gradually took control of the Islamic conquest in Andalus/Maghreb.
Now, what I could imagine was playing Arabia with the Moors disabled, conquer all of Hispania, then enabling the Moors and adopt them as a vassal to rule those distant deserts for me. Too bad that this isn't possible under current rules.

Or, I'd favor a change in the UHV: Ensure that all cities [larger than size 4?] in Hispania, Mesopotamia, Persia and North-of-Equator Africa have adopted Islam by 1300, and are governed by a civ with Islamic state religion.
That way, the Moors would not be a major hindrance in the conquest of Spain+Portugal, but instead be a major asset once there is an open borders contract.
Perhaps the Moors could only spawn if Arabia doesn't make it into Iberia before their spawn time? That way, they'd pretty much always spawn unless they'd hinder a human-controlled Arabia.
 
Gaza and Sinai for one. Not a big deal as there's almost certainly no city there. But also the chunk out of South-eastern Egypt is a bit conspicuous unless there's historic reason for it. I've definitely missed a city there once or twice on flip because of that gap.

SE Egypt I can actually understand. The exclusion was part of the then Axumite empire that resisted the initial Arab onslaught. Having that area flip would be clearly ahistorical. Two of the three tiles are tagged "Massawa" for the Ethiopian player, which is a city in modern Eritrea that was part of the Axumite Empire. Massawa only fell to the Arabs in the 8th Century. Same for the remaining tile, tagged "Adulis".

I too am puzzled by Gaza and Sinai. Caesarea held out for a year but it's too far north and anyway, a year is nothing. Gaza and Sinai were on the main invasion route into Egypt and all of Egypt was gone by 642 (barring the brief recapture of Alexandia several years later - which is my justification for - where Aelxandria doesn't already exist - founding Xou, which is outside the flipzone, and calling it Alexandreia :thumbsup:).

Leoreth, if you are going to review the Arabian flipzone then I strongly disagree with the incluson of Crete in it. Flipping Crete is completely ahistorical. Cyprus was raided from 649 but only later (c. 688) became jointly administered, and Crete did not fall until the 9th Century. I can kind of understand it strategically (it removes a useful naval bridgehead from the human player, the AI is seriously bad at seaborn invasians, and it pretty much guarantees war with Greece, if Greece is alive, because Crete is in the Greek core) but it's still a bad idea.

However, as mentioned, my main puzzlement is over the Ar-Rutbar tile, which has very little impact on game play, yet someone cared enough about it to explicitly add it to the Arabian flipzone exclusions list.

In my current Byzantine play-through, when I originally capured Babylon it had only 1 population point and I was actually tempted to raze it and found Ctesiphon on the excluded square :lol:; but that would destroy the Great Sphinx and would also cramp Carchemish and Tyre, so I let Babylon survive. I did cheekily found Tanis, in Sinai, to stop the Arabs from reinforcing Egypt before I could get there. Carchemish and Tyre make better bases for the recapture of the Levant and Mesopotamia than Babylon anyway. Carchemish retains most of its hinterland and is just two infantry moves from Babylon, and Tyre is a 100% legitimate beachead that allows me to instantly recapture the undefended Al-Kuds from the Arabs using the two Cataphracts I received when Persia declared war on me at my own spawn. Galleys out of Athens let me instantly drop an Archer in to retake Knossos (ironically, the very Archer pulled out of Knossos two moves earlier), and I could have continued with three shipborne units to invade Egypt if necessary. It's not necessary in my current game as I have both Xou (renamed to Alexandreia) and Mut and I recaptured Al-Uqsar out of those instead. By 636 AD I have recaptured and regarrisoned every city that flipped to Arabia. Meanwhile Harun al-Rashid has lost two Camel Archers in a scuffle SE of al-Kuds, is locked into the Arabian peninsula, and is begging for terms. I am considering whether I should offer peace now, or if I should invade Arabia and bleed him of units to make the peace last longer.

(Note that even extending the Arabian flipzone to cover all of broader Egypt and Sinai would still only delay the Egyptian reconquest by the number of moves required to bring a Cataphract down into Egypt after recapturing al-Kuds, or else for a Horse Archer landed on the Mediterranean coast to move inland. It would not help newly spawned Arabia at all.)

Checking in WB, I found an Arabian Legion in Sana'a. I was going to grumble over having an irreplaceable Legion flip to the Arabians, but then I couldn't identify where I had lost it from. So I reloaded my 331 AD save and checked:

Spoiler The Lost Legion :
Lost Legion.jpg


Turns out he wasn't one of mine. I bet that guy has a story to tell!
 
Please tell me you have all the autosaves. I want to see where this man came from.

I wish. I selected Byzantium from the start menu, so whatever happened, happened during the long autoplay and there's no recovering the details.

But! I have recovered the big picture. By retiring and scrolling through the replay I can see: 176 AD: Rome captures Sana'a and then 211 AD: Sana'a traded to the Independents during a Roman collapse-to-core. After that collapse, Rome vegetated till collapsing just after Byzantium was born. Therefore I conclude that the Legion we see in Sana'a was likely the very Roman unit who captured it in 176 AD. He would have turned his coat in 211 AD, and again in 628 AD. Not as interesting as imagination made it, but interesting nonetheless.

Spoiler Rome captures Sana'a :
Rome captures Sanaa.jpg


Note that big Harappan splotch in the map (I play with Harappa and Polynesia enabled)? The Harappans were busy little bees, building Khajuraho (326 AD), Shwedagon Peya (291 AD), the Mausoleum (61 AD), Borobudur (34 BC) and the Pyramids (1868 BC). All destroyed when they collapsed and their cities crumbled to rubble around 500 AD. Such a waste.

Edited to add: Aha.
Code:
            # always raze Harappan cities
            if iPlayer == iHarappa and utils.getHumanID() != iPlayer:
                lRemovedCities.append(city)

So to prevent loss of Harappan Wonders I just need to identify their cities containing Great Wonders and not append them to lRemovedCities. There's code for that in RiseAndFall (used to preserve Angkor's wonders). Since razing the Harappan cities only happens once per game, it's not too onerous to iterate through Harappa's city list and for each city, something like this:

Code:
           if iPlayer == iHarappa and utils.getHumanID() != iPlayer:
               i = city.getX()
               j = city.getY()
               if gc.getMap().plot(i, j).isCity():
                   pcity = gc.getMap().plot(i, j).getPlotCity()
                   bWonder = False
                   for iBuilding in range(iBeginWonders, iNumBuildings):
                       if pcity.isHasRealBuilding(iBuilding):
                           bWonder = True
                           break
                   if bWonder != True:
                       lRemovedCities.append(city)
                       continue

This should save cultured cities that have wonders.

Later: Yay! Got it working. Harappan cities without wonders: all destroyed. With wonders: Independent. I'm not sure how they built the Mausoleum in Harappa City (no Zoroastrism there) but I'm sure it's legit.
 
Last edited:
I have also wondered... but then, I usually just played with the flip zones as they presented themselves because there's nothing I can change about it (except in WB).
For this specific question, a possible answer could be that a civ like Greece, Byzance or Rome can, this way, keep the food production from Rutbah for a few rounds longer than otherwise. And the Sinai missing from the flip zone hardly ever matters, except for civ-switchers who place a city in the Sinai spot to inherit a Suez canal with Arabia.

I can't help but place another point to review about Arabia here: Arabia in DoC, with its huge flip zone, is a NPCiv in my book, but that's a role they excel in. They start as a roaring lion and end as a slaughtered lamb way too soon, mostly due to a stronger Byzantium and the Seljuk invasion.
I played Arabia in the original RFC and it was pretty great. To be honest, I can hardly see a good reason for Arabia's enlarged flip zone in DoC, except that it provides the historically most accurate result right on time 620/640. In my opinion, with a little earlier spawn, a human player Arabia could position their starting army and do the begin of the Islamic conquest themselves, instead of having Egypt and Mesopotamia just fall into their laps and then mostly struggle to defend the advantage they were given.
But most important; if I ever decide to play Arabia again, I will disable the Moors in WB for that run. In my opinion, it was an especially bad move to include a strong Moor civilization but then require Arabia to fight against them. The Moors started as Arabian auxiliaries, and gradually took control of the Islamic conquest in Andalus/Maghreb.
Now, what I could imagine was playing Arabia with the Moors disabled, conquer all of Hispania, then enabling the Moors and adopt them as a vassal to rule those distant deserts for me. Too bad that this isn't possible under current rules.

Or, I'd favor a change in the UHV: Ensure that all cities [larger than size 4?] in Hispania, Mesopotamia, Persia and North-of-Equator Africa have adopted Islam by 1300, and are governed by a civ with Islamic state religion.
That way, the Moors would not be a major hindrance in the conquest of Spain+Portugal, but instead be a major asset once there is an open borders contract.
Yeah, I haven't given it a good shot since adopting DoC but Arabia's UHV seems near impossible now that the Moors and a powerful Byzantine empire is there.
 
Yeah, I haven't given it a good shot since adopting DoC but Arabia's UHV seems near impossible now that the Moors and a powerful Byzantine empire is there.
I recently played the Arabs and the Byzzies are nothing to worry about.

It is, however, a PITA to conquer pretty much the only civ (except Poland <3) which isn't annoyed/furious with you.
 
I recently played the Arabs and the Byzzies are nothing to worry about.

It is, however, a PITA to conquer pretty much the only civ (except Poland <3) which isn't annoyed/furious with you.
Actually yeah I haven't had too much trouble with the Byzantine's. Conquering the Moors and Iberia is quite a challenge though. Especially the naval assault on Iberia. because none of Arabia's coastal Mediterranean cities are very productive and you can't build a Suez Canal with a fort anymore.
 
Huh? Since when, and why?

Pretty sure TJDowling is incorrect. I have and continue to build canals using forts, including Suez. The only things that could explain this:
  • Cities being placed next to the Suez tile thus preventing a fort from being constructed. Doesn't matter for Suez unless the tile settled is 1 SW.
  • Changes to culture make it so that the Suez desert hill is not covered; fort canals require the tile to be occupied by your culture. Shouldn't matter because forts reduce tile culture cost to 0 and both Cairo and Jerusalem have strong culture generation.
  • The canal is held by an ally rather than you personally. Naval units may only pass through forts which are covered by your culture.
Spoiler Quick screenshot demonstrating Suez canal is still possible, jury-rigged in WB at 600 AD Byzantine start: :

upload_2018-10-21_20-46-50.png

 
Pretty sure TJDowling is incorrect. I have and continue to build canals using forts, including Suez. The only things that could explain this:
  • Cities being placed next to the Suez tile thus preventing a fort from being constructed. Doesn't matter for Suez unless the tile settled is 1 SW.
  • Changes to culture make it so that the Suez desert hill is not covered; fort canals require the tile to be occupied by your culture. Shouldn't matter because forts reduce tile culture cost to 0 and both Cairo and Jerusalem have strong culture generation.
  • The canal is held by an ally rather than you personally. Naval units may only pass through forts which are covered by your culture.

Agreed. In my current game I just despatched Caravels in opposite directions from the Med and used a Fort on the ithsmus for the east-bound one. I completely own the area culturally.
 
Maybe that was in a different mod mod but I thought forts were impassible (for naval units) now.
 
Naval units can enter Forts if the tile is within your borders.
Was it different in CMC? There were a few rules that I forgot were specific to CMC. For example after you cancelled CMC and I started playing DoC more I kept not putting explorers on caravels for a while before I noticed that they had unit slots. I don't know, maybe I just tried to pass a fort that wasn't in my cultural borders once and thought it was a new rule that naval units can't pass period. Dang, that's really messed up my game.
 
Speaking of forts, I was disappointed to find out that you can't even build them outside your cultural borders any more. Not a major issue, but in vanilla I used to build forts in the late game as a way of extending air cover into places that weren't habitable or worth colonising. In my latest China game (v1.14) I surprised to find I couldn't build a fort in Western Tibet or Guam. :-)
 
You aren't? That's not intentional.
 
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