Why is CIV4 still the best civ game?

On the contrary - before your last post I thought we got each other's points perfectly. I repeatedly told you that you can play however you want. I don't understand what attitude you are talking about, all out of the blue.

Hoping you are willing to answer AspiringScholar's actual question.
Than you clearly did not understand me.

Each and every reply of mine in this thread has been a case of me pointing out to you how I find your attitude and posts to be dismissive off me and my view.
The use of the word 'bro' and phrases such a "insist on ignoring that strategic content" and "the most logical answer". etc.

All of these are basically you saying "Look, I'll pay lip service to your arguments and all that but let's face it, I am right."

And that is the one and only thing I am responding against all this time. Because I personally find it to be aggravating to a mild degree.
 
Civ IV is special, you can actually lose on deity while playing close to optimal.
Against AIs and that's very very rare for computer games.

I can only speak for myself..but my motivation & fun (for a long time) came from being curious about how things will turn out.
So i had lots of fun while constantly improving my game cos those AIs kept me on my toes.
Optimising stuff came along automatically, and the same amount of fun came from discussing strategies with peoples here.
Felt like i didn't only look closely at everything for myself, but also to provide ideas and taking part in this community.
 
Than you clearly did not understand me.
You are correct, I can not read minds. If you are aggravated by something, consider the possibility of speaking your mind.

I had no idea someone could be aggravated from a clearly joking word "bro", but I am no longer astonished by anything really.
 
Ha...It probably came from the meme...."bro" can sometimes be perceived negatively..

I recommend for yall to please drop that line of discussion now and move back to the topic.
 
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I like much of what Civ 4 has to offer...except for the combat. I just don't think it's very fun.

-I don't care for stacks. For whatever faults the AI has in Civ5/6 about using 1-unit-per-tile, those two games still lend themselves to being board games, where it would be impossible for two pieces to occupy the same space anyway. So what people are complaining about on the theoretical side of things I don't know...If the AI can't handle it, that's a program problem, not a core gameplay element problem. From what I've heard, the Vox Populi mod does fix much of the AI in Civ 5.
-I don't care for combat odds. Which only seem to be a reflection of how good you are at producing lots of units, rather than positioning them correctly.
-also, less talked about, I don't care much for zero city defense. which means a sizable number of my units are spent defending said cities...rather than doing anything. any other game I play, using an army to capture a city despite there not being a huge army to stop me is actually quite hard, not easy.

I await your responses but there is no convincing me that I should be running to play Civ 4 to play a good war strategy game.
 
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there is no convincing me that I should be running to play Civ 4 to play a good war strategy game
Agreed, Civilization is an Empire building game which happens to include some war elements.
 
Some tidbit: civ4 is also pretty accurate. I'd been wondering why Monty is such a crazy warmonger. I mean, Gandhi is obvious, from a historical viewpoint, but Monty lost to the Spanish... Well, until like 30 minutes ago, when I discovered the Aztec death whistles. Holy sh!t, if normal Aztec soldiers were this metal, then no wonder their leader was totally nuts.
 
I decided to give Civ VI a fair chance. I'm 6 or 7 games in now, and... playing it feels more like a chore than a game.

A lot of what's been said in this thread is absolutely true. Arithmetic is not strategy, and memorizing the game, future buildings/districts/unlocks, just to do mental arithmetic on where to place buildings/districts/wonders isn't fun, it's a chore. It also feels wrong/contrived the way memorizing the game and playing from the ancient era for wonders/districts that won't be available until the modern era is rewarded.... like the wonder that you can only place next to a government plaza.

The war and religion "strategy" feels contrived and can barely count as strategy once you've done it a couple times. I dread doing a domination or religious victory because it's simply a chore to build, move, and place units. There's no strategy, just managing a formula. I'm attempting a religious victory right now, and after getting the appropriate wonders, I'm just spamming apostle's, giving them the appropriate upgrades, and sending an army of them over, calculating what/how to spread the religion. In the end it's all formulaic arithmetic, not strategy.

Same with the policies. I dread unlocking new civics, because then I have to sit and agonize over what works best and what I want to do with my empire. In the end, the amount of time investment doesn't match the reward. It just becomes a chore to get that extra 10% or 20%.

Then there's the predictive/linear nature of the game. Civilization VI feels everyone's riding on tracks and simply adding to a train. Civilization IV feels like a true civilization simulator where the world unfolds around you, and how the game will go nobody knows.
 
I have recently installed civ 6, to play hot seat with my SO, it feels so empty and soulless. What happened to the civ series after civ 4 was it a financial flop?

Decisions feel important in civ 4, in the newer game I can just leave all the choices to the adviser.
Yes Civ 4 was the best, Civ 3 was good too
 
Its probably not surprising that the majority of posters on a civ 4 sub forum think that civ 4 is pretty good.
 
Yes, but why
To me, civ4 most perfectly captures that "exponential" feeling of 4X games. When you play well, your production, science, and military all surges faster and faster, so every turn is massively more powerful than the turn before. When you play badly, things really fall off the rails. And there's so many things you can learn, ranging from big strategy decisions, to little micro tricks that save 1 worker turn. But with the fast exponential growth, even those little micro tricks really *matter*. With the other civ games, improving the micro usually just slightly boosts your score, it doesn't cause such a dramatic difference like it can in civ4.
 
1UPT kills the game, and the devs won't get off of it. The problems within Civ 4 are fixable by better means, but the mentality of the series moved towards making it a skinner box rather than a game.
I still think Civilization 2 is the more interesting game for its time, but Civ 4 mods give it nearly unlimited replay value and extendability.
If I were to make a new Civ game though, I wouldn't look to the earlier games and try to copy them. I'd do things very differently, probably get away from tile / unit management altogether and streamline the military aspect of the game. The civilization-building decisions have always been more interesting for me. I would like a civ game where the military aspects are largely automated - you declare war, manage your civilization's overall military status / status of internal revolts, and the generals do the fighting. But then, I see this as a way ot mitigating one of the series' nagging points to me - that civilizations tend to suffer from internal instability, and this is not at all reflected in the series. I get why this isn't going to be realistic - you have to control one civilization from 4000 BC to 2000 AD, and no civilization could last that long. The military aspect automation though could be done while retaining Civ's overall take on history. I really would like the social side of civilization-building to be emphasized more, because that's one of the most interesting parts of history for me - how empires and societies face struggles both from outside and within, and how leaders manage the really big crises.
By limiting the military side of the game, it allows more game time for the things that are interesting, and it also allows a more interesting take on managing armies, military industry, and so on. The way it is done in civ with per unit hammer costs emphasizes the wrong basis for militaries imo. Militaries are recruited from the population, especially in eras where the basis for the military were citizen-soldiers or peasant levies. It would also allow the player to focus on the development of technology and science at the period where it was actually historically relevant, while early game conflicts would largely not require beaker investment since they're largely driven by population and resource availability. By industrial era the deployment of artillery and modern ships would require a whole industry and supply chain, development of oil, etc., which was in our history a really big reason why modernity turned out the way it did. Late game military in civ tends to be disinteresting, especially in Civ 4 due to SoD. I remember having lots of fun with late game war in Civ 2 because the battle options were right for the game - more varied from Civ 1 which only had fighters, bombers, and basic tanks, and the introduction of partisans when fighting democratic or communist civilizations was cool. These things could be abstracted into something that is more interesting - something that is a factor, but that happens behind the hood and is a consideration for your civilization.

Anyway Civ 4 remains my goto Civilization game due to the mod library. Realism Invictus does a good job of teaching the AI new mechanics, although the player will be able to boost ahead in techs unless playing at Emperor difficulty or higher, which makes the game really difficult to play early. Some of the tactical decisions in RI are questionable, like how early game skirmishers are really strong in the field, but they did a good job of mitigating the usefulness of SoD, and if you were playing against quality opponents, you wouldn't use a single SoD in Civ 4, but you'd deploy armies with the goal of taking cities and harassing enemy territory. Because the AI uses SoD and often has a huge production advantage, you're kind of forced to SoD in Civ 4 vs. AI.
 
1UPT kills the game, and the devs won't get off of it. The problems within Civ 4 are fixable by better means, but the mentality of the series moved towards making it a skinner box rather than a game.
I still think Civilization 2 is the more interesting game for its time, but Civ 4 mods give it nearly unlimited replay value and extendability.
If I were to make a new Civ game though, I wouldn't look to the earlier games and try to copy them. I'd do things very differently, probably get away from tile / unit management altogether and streamline the military aspect of the game. The civilization-building decisions have always been more interesting for me. I would like a civ game where the military aspects are largely automated - you declare war, manage your civilization's overall military status / status of internal revolts, and the generals do the fighting. But then, I see this as a way ot mitigating one of the series' nagging points to me - that civilizations tend to suffer from internal instability, and this is not at all reflected in the series. I get why this isn't going to be realistic - you have to control one civilization from 4000 BC to 2000 AD, and no civilization could last that long. The military aspect automation though could be done while retaining Civ's overall take on history. I really would like the social side of civilization-building to be emphasized more, because that's one of the most interesting parts of history for me - how empires and societies face struggles both from outside and within, and how leaders manage the really big crises.
By limiting the military side of the game, it allows more game time for the things that are interesting, and it also allows a more interesting take on managing armies, military industry, and so on. The way it is done in civ with per unit hammer costs emphasizes the wrong basis for militaries imo. Militaries are recruited from the population, especially in eras where the basis for the military were citizen-soldiers or peasant levies. It would also allow the player to focus on the development of technology and science at the period where it was actually historically relevant, while early game conflicts would largely not require beaker investment since they're largely driven by population and resource availability. By industrial era the deployment of artillery and modern ships would require a whole industry and supply chain, development of oil, etc., which was in our history a really big reason why modernity turned out the way it did. Late game military in civ tends to be disinteresting, especially in Civ 4 due to SoD. I remember having lots of fun with late game war in Civ 2 because the battle options were right for the game - more varied from Civ 1 which only had fighters, bombers, and basic tanks, and the introduction of partisans when fighting democratic or communist civilizations was cool. These things could be abstracted into something that is more interesting - something that is a factor, but that happens behind the hood and is a consideration for your civilization.

Anyway Civ 4 remains my goto Civilization game due to the mod library. Realism Invictus does a good job of teaching the AI new mechanics, although the player will be able to boost ahead in techs unless playing at Emperor difficulty or higher, which makes the game really difficult to play early. Some of the tactical decisions in RI are questionable, like how early game skirmishers are really strong in the field, but they did a good job of mitigating the usefulness of SoD, and if you were playing against quality opponents, you wouldn't use a single SoD in Civ 4, but you'd deploy armies with the goal of taking cities and harassing enemy territory. Because the AI uses SoD and often has a huge production advantage, you're kind of forced to SoD in Civ 4 vs. AI.

Have you ever given Victoria 2 a try? While it only encompasses one century (from 1836 - 1936) it quite ornately does exactly what you describe WRT social pressures and resource constraints in the context of war, with a much more dynamic diplomacy as well. It leans more towards being a simulation than purely a game as Civilization, but I think you might find the way that it implements its mechanics to be interesting and satisfying to your expectations (case in point, your armies not only require relevant supplies of oil, machines, ammunition, etc., but are also drawn from your population directly, who then no longer can be useful in other roles, and additionally have their own political views and might not necessarily be loyal to your agenda if you're fighting people in league with their cause).

Realism Invictus's revolution mechanic feels like the perfect gap filler for what was missing in IV, to my mind. Sure, it's still a highly abstracted game and not aiming to be truly "realistic" but as you say, for being flavored by and loosely modeling real historical empire building, those internal social pressures were dishearteningly negligible in the series, IMO. Just the single addition of this one feature completes the game conceptually for me, all else aside. I also like how if you leave cities unhappy, even if they don't revolt, they'll riot and destroy your buildings and improvements. In vanilla BtS, unhappy population is just reserve hammers under slavery and not a liability besides a potential lost opportunity cost if they could work a tile elsewhere and not an actual threat to your stability. (I used to be a huge EU3 player, and I actually went back and played a game recently, then found that RI still does a better job of managing separatism than that game, with fluid modifiers based upon foreign culture, religion, your own garrison size, espionage level, the civics you're using, etc., whereas in EU it's mostly a binary question of "core vs. non-core" which triggers suddenly after 40 years.)
 
Haven't played Victoria but perhaps I should - have heard great things about the series and I've read a lot about the British Empire. It does help to focus in on a particular era.
 
Civ5/6 play like a generic cartoonish board game, while 4 feels like it's own world which I think is a combination of the art style and strategic depth. I'm not holding my breath for Civ7 either it's going to be another iteration of the same simplified gameplay of Civ5/6
 
Haven't played Victoria but perhaps I should - have heard great things about the series and I've read a lot about the British Empire. It does help to focus in on a particular era.
I personally find it to be a bit too much of a spreadsheet simulator. But from what you wrote I think it's just what you are looking for.

This said, the whole "if I could make a CIV game today" tangent is quite an interesting one. Like, I personally could write volumes about what I'd do. But at the top of the list would be making the AI more SMAC like.
 
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