Why is CIV4 still the best civ game?

[AspiringScholar]

I guess it's nice to see Civ 3 having a champion, at least. Been the neglected stepchild of the series for too long.

My hot take is that while there is probably a Civ game that has the most depth, people are probably going to associate that more with the one they've invested the most hours in. I think Civ 4 is by far the deepest game in the series - but then again, I've also played it far more.

There is something endearing about Civ 3 aesthetically, and I get a childhood nostalgia kick from his coverage of and fondness for it; but I agree that Civ 4 by far is the deeper and more interesting game.

 

[JDCP]

There is something endearing about Civ 3 aesthetically

Exactly my thoughts with CIV2 and Alpha Centauri, mechanically they're outfaced by CIV4 in nearly every aspect, but they still hold up amazingly well. In fact I'd say SMAC was the best thing Firaxis ever produced, and if it wasn't for the amazing quality of many CIV4 mods I'd be playing that instead. That said, the city view screen from CIV3 is one of the most epic things I've seen in a game.

people are probably going to associate that more with the one they've invested the most hours in.

Yep that's completely normal, in a few years I'm sure you will find people who have CIV7 as their favorite.

 

[MilesBeyond]

I find it's particularly noticeable with terrain improvements. There's a whole lotta people out there who seem to think their personal favourite Civ is the only one where Worker choices (or Settler choices for the OGs) are deep and meaningful. In every other Civ game, they're so shallow you just mindlessly spam one or two improvements.

 

[TheOtherOne]

For me its the advciv mod that keeps me coming back. Challenging enough to make me have to think but where diplomacy and peaceful approaches still work, at least for some leaders, that there's a diverty of play styles. If it wasn't for advciv I wouldn't keep on playing. It'd be great to see more mods use advciv as a component. I don't think any other civ experience is challenging enough to keep them entertaining.

 

[JDCP]

For me its the advciv mod that keeps me coming back. Challenging enough to make me have to think but where diplomacy and peaceful approaches still work, at least for some leaders, that there's a diverty of play styles. If it wasn't for advciv I'd wouldn't keep on playing. It'd be great to see more mods use advciv as a component. I don't think any other civ experience is challenging enough to keep them entertaining.

Yep, if something CIV4 has over any other game in the genre it's plenty of mods for anything you want, given the apparent versatility with which it was programmed and the ease to modify. You want lots of content that completely changes the game into a new setting based around fantasy, overly futuristic a la space opera, scifi like SMAC, primitive or some of the greatest wars in time (such as the crusades, to give an example) represented through carefully crafted mods with lots creative design choices put into them? We got it, you just want a simple and lightweight mod that updates graphics, interface and makes the game feel more refreshing and varied without changing much into the base of the original game? hell yeah we go that too! What? You want better AI that's insanely difficult to beat and requires complex strategy? SAY NO MORE!!! Even historical mods that try to keep things into the boundaries to assure some fun. We have everything here, literal infinite replayability. The GOAT of the 4X genre

I'd still be playing this if it was simply BTS, but the mods add so much to its value that you just can't praise this game without mentioning it.

 

[TheOtherOne]

Can anyone make any suggestions on good mods that are cohesive (not full of random, half completed ideas} and where the AI is able to function and so there is meaningful challenge. I've tried a few mods and while there are many interesting ideas most become quickly boring as the AI can barely function or the components just don't work with each other.

I've tried SMAC (What I would give for a proper remake of the original, but this mod is pretty good but it does fall apart towards the end game) and all the included mods. Advciv is what keeps me coming back. I wish more mods would use it.

 

[JDCP]

Can anyone make any suggestions on good mods that are cohesive (not full of random, half completed ideas} and where the AI is able to function and so there is meaningful challenge.

well I know K-mod, for what I remember the main difference between that one and advciv is that the later makes new balance changes. You could try that if you just want the basics or maybe CIV4 reimagined which is basically the same premise as advciv in the sense they're built upon K-mod. I've had fun with those two I mention buuuut I haven't played them in ages. Alternatively, if you like scenarios there's Sword of Islam, very enjoyable for me and managed to be challenging. It's very pleasant to play considering it's a finely crafted piece, really, that's a good example of what I call cohesive. Along it you can put any other mods based on RFC though I haven't played many, and some I did get to play were either left in progress or continue on it.

There is a mod I can speak well of considering it's all I've been playing recently, Realism Invictus (yes I know It's been mentioned a lot but I can't let the opportunity pass ), AI there has never been mindblowingly smart for me (not like it's meant to be anyway) but in my last game it's been giving me a handful of surprises. Maybe I just suck in high difficulties but the AI over here seems to be learning how to pull an assault. In my last game the damn thing split it's doomstack and positioned itself in various corners of the map literally ambushing my units that were on the way to defend the road between two of my cities, it can also be a pain in the ass when it's about naval combat. Yeah I'm definitely bad at this but hey give it a try, maybe you will be surprised like me.

Don't think I've mentioned anything that you already don't know... so, have you played advciv+? It's the same advciv but with more content, still a WIP, in fact probably forever a WIP, but maybe you'll find it enjoyable.

(What I would give for a proper remake of the original, but this mod is pretty good but it does fall apart towards the end game)

Amazing mod based on a legendary game, not a proper remake certainly but it's good enough for me to enjoy it.

 

[Core Imposter]

I wish Civ IV itself were a WIP, just not by anyone still at Firaxis.

 

[MilesBeyond]

We are all WIPs on this blessed day

 

[Core Imposter]

We are all WIPs on this blessed day

Amen.

 

[Core Imposter]

I have a blast just changing some rules for my games. Doesn't even require modding. No unjustified wars, limited war gains, avoidance of the exploits that normally result in the player steamroll. And you end up with entirely unpredictable gameplay. For even more fun invent your own events (though that is better within a mod). The game design is flexible enough to do this. I just have no need to play these lesser games they have released. And, wow, aren't the graphics of Civ 7 a cluttered mess?

 

[TheOtherOne]

well I know K-mod, for what I remember the main difference between that one and advciv is that the later makes new balance changes. You could try that if you just want the basics or maybe CIV4 reimagined which is basically the same premise as advciv in the sense they're built upon K-mod. I've had fun with those two I mention buuuut I haven't played them in ages. Alternatively, if you like scenarios there's Sword of Islam, very enjoyable for me and managed to be challenging. It's very pleasant to play considering it's a finely crafted piece, really, that's a good example of what I call cohesive. Along it you can put any other mods based on RFC though I haven't played many, and some I did get to play were either left in progress or continue on it.

There is a mod I can speak well of considering it's all I've been playing recently, Realism Invictus (yes I know It's been mentioned a lot but I can't let the opportunity pass ), AI there has never been mindblowingly smart for me (not like it's meant to be anyway) but in my last game it's been giving me a handful of surprises. Maybe I just suck in high difficulties but the AI over here seems to be learning how to pull an assault. In my last game the damn thing split it's doomstack and positioned itself in various corners of the map literally ambushing my units that were on the way to defend the road between two of my cities, it can also be a pain in the ass when it's about naval combat. Yeah I'm definitely bad at this but hey give it a try, maybe you will be surprised like me.

Don't think I've mentioned anything that you already don't know... so, have you played advciv+? It's the same advciv but with more content, still a WIP, in fact probably forever a WIP, but maybe you'll find it enjoyable.

Amazing mod based on a legendary game, not a proper remake certainly but it's good enough for me to enjoy it.

I tried a couple of the advciv mod-mods. Unfortunately while some have very interesting features they are mostly just content that doesn't really feel integrated. When I start finding things like African zebra knights as a unique unit I deleted the mod-mod and moved on. Simply adding new civilizations and unique UU/UBs just doesn't interest me, even if well made and integrated. I want an attempt to at least mimic historical trends with cohesive mechanics. Not a kitchen sink approach of whatever pops into their mind.

The description of Reimagined interests me. One of my biggest issues with civ4 is the combat. Too easy to spam units, collatoral units are too powerful, and ranged units are not mechanically different. I'll look at giving it a go but while the description of the AI makes it seem more effective I hope they also improved its ability to develop in a non-warlike manner for appropriate civilizations. I really enjoy how Advciv leaders will all declare war if they see an easy target, but many of them would rather develop in their own ways instead.

 

[Core Imposter]

I am skeptical about mods improving AI. I still play BTS unmodded but with rules imposed on myself to change the play experience. There are a plethora of improvements that can be made to Civ 4 but absent a pledge to adhere to a vision of Civ that would deliver a dynamic, strategic, and global pseudo-historic experience I would just as soon that it be left alone. All we hear from designers is less. Maps that are made smaller with cities sprawling all over the map. No global scaling. Less units. Less micromanaging which really means less to build and less to experience. The only thing they want to give you more of is gimmicks. Build six of this and explore over there and you'll get a thingamajig!

The other side of the coin would be another title where the best way to play is the momentum conquest mode, with everybody playing every civ as if it were the Mongols, which might be okay if you renamed the game Barbarian rather than Civilization. I want conflict and combat end to end but not a game where the uncivilized always wins.

The extraordinary thing is a civ that has to fight to survive but somehow manages to do it and still build wonderous things. It should be hard. Oh, let me shut up.

 

[JDCP]

One of my biggest issues with civ4 is the combat. Too easy to spam units, collatoral units are too powerful, and ranged units are not mechanically different.

I agree with the idea of AI being able to develop without the use of war, yet I think we should accept that the most efficient, if even sometimes the only way to advance in CIV4 is war. Still, the mod RI has some features that might interest you in the matter of peace, quite in fact, it reworks the civic Pacifism itself by adding some interesting effects besides lower unit production. Also, by adding units that can be produced without resources (there are some, not many, but they do work) or with the resource and not the tech, it gives some opportunity for weak AIs to somehow develop and stay afloat in a world where everyone wants a piece of them.

You might like some of the combat features RI adds, for example artillery no longer does collateral damage by attacking, that task is reserved to heavy cavalry or tanks, now you use cannons to bombard enemy units without engaging in combat which is VERY NICE TO HAVE considering how terrible collateral damage was in BTS. RI does that and many more marvelous appliances of logic to the many systems of the game that I really recommend it to anyone, no exceptions. If you haven't played that mod yet... then you MUST

That said, if you're looking for some big improvement where the AI plays like a real person, It's sad to say that I really don't know of something capable of that. Even then I do enjoy the AI that can be seen in some mods, so I don't complain much about it. I personally see this game more of a building/storymaking game rather than just conquering around.

I tried a couple of the advciv mod-mods. Unfortunately while some have very interesting features they are mostly just content that doesn't really feel integrated. When I start finding things like African zebra knights as a unique unit I deleted the mod-mod and moved on. Simply adding new civilizations and unique UU/UBs just doesn't interest me, even if well made and integrated. I want an attempt to at least mimic historical trends with cohesive mechanics. Not a kitchen sink approach of whatever pops into their mind.

Yeah I get what you mean, sometimes less can be more. I personally am a big fan of mods that add a **** ton of content, but I might not enjoy it if it's too over the top or unbalanced. I like what you said, games need cohesion, a good structure, without that they're just a bunch of assets thrown together, thankfully we have several examples here of mods so well done you'd think they were a different game, and to a certain extent, they are.

Give a try to Reimagined, you might like it and let me know your opinion of it.

I am skeptical about mods improving AI. I still play BTS unmodded but with rules imposed on myself to change the play experience. There are a plethora of improvements that can be made to Civ 4 but absent a pledge to adhere to a vision of Civ that would deliver a dynamic, strategic, and global pseudo-historic experience I would just as soon that it be left alone. All we hear from designers is less. Maps that are made smaller with cities sprawling all over the map. No global scaling. Less units. Less micromanaging which really means less to build and less to experience. The only thing they want to give you more of is gimmicks. Build six of this and explore over there and you'll get a thingamajig!

The other side of the coin would be another title where the best way to play is the momentum conquest mode, with everybody playing every civ as if it were the Mongols, which might be okay if you renamed the game Barbarian rather than Civilization. I want conflict and combat end to end but not a game where the uncivilized always wins.

The extraordinary thing is a civ that has to fight to survive but somehow manages to do it and still build wonderous things. It should be hard. Oh, let me shut up.

Don't you like mods? some in my opinion are even better than vanilla BTS was, and that's saying a lot. Yes I do think modern 4X games have gone a bit too away from the right scope of what we want, we want freedom and versatility yet they give us limitations and stubborn systems. I don't like when people complain much about micromanaging, for me that's the juice of these games, being able to tinker with everything and having to put attention to all details, because COME ON I'M THE LEADER OF A NATION!!!! I'm supposed to be in charge of all that stuff. Long gone are the days of breaking your back for something nice I guess, like you said it's all gimmicks now.

Personally I'd like a game where your only way to win was by achieving world peace, not by having 20 vassals that vote for you in the UN lol , but by somehow staying clear and convincing others to join you. Sure fighting wars would be more fun and rewarding, but that's the point.

IDK, that sounds impossible to make, but it does sound cute