Why is Immortal so much harder than Emperor? How to win on Immortal?

[panama_joe]

This drives me crazy -- in fact, I'm almost at a point where I'm ready to give up Civ.

I never lose when I play on Emperor level -- I always win. But I have never won on Immortal. Why is that? Why is there such a huge jump in difficulty between Emperor and Immortal?

Whenever I play on Immortal, one of two things happen :
1. I get stuck next to one or more aggressive civilization(s) that want to attack me early on, forcing me to divert my production to the military, and subsequently I don't build my cities fast enough. The other civs overtake me and I never catch up.
2. The other civs around me develop so much faster than me, and I never have the chance to catch up. Either I attack them and don't get anywhere because they have 3 cities to my 1, or I don't attack them and they take up the continent and become more advanced than me and I never have the chance to catch up.

And I guess the next logical question is, how do I win on Immortal? I feel like my civ skill has plateaued. When someone is at the stage where they always win on Emperor but never win on Immortal, what are the kinds of strategies and tactics are they missing?

Here are my two most successful strategies so far :
1. Play Tomyris. Go hard military at the beginning of the game to secure a continent, and then pivot to hard science and develop universities in all cities, eventually winning a science victory. This used to be a little easier before they nerfed The Enlightenment (which became less powerful after Rise and Fall). I've also won a religious victory with Tomyris.
2. Play Saladin. Go hard science while developing religion simultaneously. Start lots of cities and convert them to my religion. Don't try too hard to convert other civs to my religion. Instead, choose Jesuit Education as a founding belief, and use the faith generated to buy science buildings. Win a science victory. (I've also won a religious victory with Saladin, but I usually don't try for a religious victory because I think it's kinda boring)

Anyways, I'd appreciate any suggestions for new tips/tactics/strategies. I'm at a point now where I've tried so hard to win on immortal so many times that it's become really unrewarding, and I'm thinking about finding a new game. I've heard Skylines is fun?

 

[Bibor]

The AI is hopelessly bad, especially at combat.

I've seen some youtubers beating deity no problem with skill levels comparable to those required winning in Civ4 on prince.

 

[comatosedragon]

I personally think the gap between King and Emperor is much wider.

Anyway, as someone who plays primarily Immortal games, my advice is this: culture.
It made a huge difference in my games once I started focusing on culture ASAP. I think it is slightly underrated -- but it is so important to hit those early milestones in the culture tree -- Agoge and Political Philosophy specifically. I always aim to have PP between turns 50-60. Any later than this, and I know I will be playing catch-up for a while.

I wish I could offer more 'concrete' advice, but trust me; try another game focusing hard on culture (maybe even play Greece or Rome); I have a feeling you will see your games improve.

Oh, and avoid religion like the plague. Seriously. Don't waste time or hammers on this (Arabia being the obvious exception). The first 'real' decision you have to make is God King or Urban Planning. Only pick god king if you know you can get some great benefits EARLY like culture from jungles or pastures, or hammers from fishing if you have a lot of resources. I probably go with urban Planning 70% of the time. Try to time your policy changes so as not to waste hammers.

Good Luck!

 

[Socrates99]

Emperor to immortal seems like the biggest jump. Once you have immortal down deity is just a little hop up.

Get your second city out asap. Sometimes I'll pause what I'm building as soon as I hit 2 pop just to get that settler built. This gets you a little more flexibility and will help you get the early empire inspiration quicker.

Focus on getting political philosophy fast. You need to unlock that first tier government quickly. It's a big boost. I'll usually build a scout first to try and find a new continent and meet 3 CSs then a builder as your second or third build to get the craftsmanship inspiration.

A slinger is usually my second or third build. Pair it with your warrior to het the archery eureka. Try to build 2 more at some point before completing archery. Then you'll have 3 to upgrade on completion. The warrior and archers can defend most rushes.

After that expand expand expand. Peacefully or through war.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I actually don't think it's a big difference. The gap between the two is the same from Prince to King. But the bonuses the AI gets means that you have get ahead a bit faster, and thus bad starts will feel more of a difference. I would say to pay attention to where you settle at the start. Pick places that have immediate food and production, and this is not always the best possible city. This includes moving your settler a few turns if the start looks bad. Settling in places that take forever to grow or do anything, is far worse.

As for proper defense early on, basically you need 2-3 warriors and can't just rely on slingers. Ideally you garrison a warrior in a city to increase its base strength. Also try to settle cities on hills and across rivers, even if the placement isn't optimal.

Basically Immortal is a less fun version of Emperor; where you stop going for the best looking things and focus on more practical things, though doing so at lower levels will also make you faster.

 

[kb27787]

How about you learn to befriend the AI rather than going to war all the time?
Imo that is the easiest way to play (on immortal not sure how negative the first impressions are, but it shouldn't be as severe as deity... A delegation and a gift of some horses or the lux you settled on goes a long way towards avoiding scary situations)

 

[MarigoldRan]

Just pick Inca or Canada or Nubia or Gorgo or Aztecs and win.

 

[BarbarianHunter]

Settle on a luxury resource, preferably one that requires irrigation to extract. Build a builder first and research animal husbandry and mining, grab more lux and/or strategic resources. Sell it/them to the AI. Never build units, buy them with the AI's gold and build settlers instead. Beeline early empire for +50% settlers.

Edit: The thing with buying units is you may not even need them, and can perhaps use the gold later for other matters.

 

[Weraptor]

I'd rather buy Settlers with AI gold and or faith purchase them with Monumentality and produce units.

 

[Victoria]

If on a small map, swap to a standard size, it gives a little more room.

I agree this is the largest jump and you now have to focus more an what works game wise to make up for that jump. In essence you have to play more gamey to have a better chance.
Using chop
Using discount cards
Using district pre-placement
Play in 3 phases concentrating fully on your victory.
Playing to the strengths of your civs
Playing to the value of the city states
Concentrating on culture at the start
Building only the wonders you need
Going for the inspirations and eurekas you know are worthy
It’s way too much to write all of it in one go but emperor is the relaxed do anything game once you know how to use the rules above well. Immortal and deity you have to adapt a bit more. Every single one of the above is important. They are not the only ones
Building archers when your enemy is in rough terrain is likely a fail, archers are for fast open spaces. I do not know if you are still at the phase of winning with archer armies but spread to 2-3 cities and getting knights ASAP is a winning gamestyle on high levels to start.
The best advice is play the same game a few times with some good starting area. Using something like Gorgo is quite good for knights as you’ll get extra culture boost regardless and the early GG through a wildcard slot and the +2 GG points gives your knights that touch extra.

 

[BarbarianHunter]

I'd rather buy Settlers with AI gold and or faith purchase them with Monumentality and produce units.

For the way I play I find the cost of a settler escalates too quickly for my taste while units remain a constant price. I also know 100% that I will need settlers, so hard building them is never a waste. Sometimes I just don't need any units and can save quite a gold horde for granaries, watermills, builders, etc...If I need units, I can buy them when and where they are required.

 

[Kwami]

Yeah, but Settlers are a lot cheaper with a Monumentality golden age. Combat units don't get that discount. And, you can buy civilian units with Faith, too.

 

[BarbarianHunter]

Wait a minute here. The OP was vexed by the immortal difficulty setting and now we're in a monumentality golden age?

 

[NukeAJS]

If on a small map, swap to a standard size, it gives a little more room.

I agree this is the largest jump and you now have to focus more an what works game wise to make up for that jump. In essence you have to play more gamey to have a better chance.
Using chop
Using discount cards
Using district pre-placement
Play in 3 phases concentrating fully on your victory.
Playing to the strengths of your civs
Playing to the value of the city states
Concentrating on culture at the start
Building only the wonders you need
Going for the inspirations and eurekas you know are worthy
It’s way too much to write all of it in one go but emperor is the relaxed do anything game once you know how to use the rules above well. Immortal and deity you have to adapt a bit more. Every single one of the above is important. They are not the only ones
Building archers when your enemy is in rough terrain is likely a fail, archers are for fast open spaces. I do not know if you are still at the phase of winning with archer armies but spread to 2-3 cities and getting knights ASAP is a winning gamestyle on high levels to start.
The best advice is play the same game a few times with some good starting area. Using something like Gorgo is quite good for knights as you’ll get extra culture boost regardless and the early GG through a wildcard slot and the +2 GG points gives your knights that touch extra.

Basically what Victoria said, the only things I'd add:

There's a mental discipline that can be applied to real life, not only strategy games. Simply ask yourself, before you do any action: "Why am I doing this?". If you can justify your answer -- you've taken a big step towards getting rid of waste/inefficiency. A second question after that would be: "Can I do this better?". This is where exploiting your advantages come into play (and, inversely, avoiding your disadvantages). The third question is simply: "What's my purpose/goal?". This is the hardest part to implement, but obviously the most important part of the game. Well, at least if you care about playing optimally.

The first question is by far the most important. It kind of gets at the soul of people, generally, in many ways -- people make choices everyday but, when asked, they've no idea why they made that choice. While that is probably a necessary mechanism while choosing a sandwich, it's not acceptable when there's a strategic goal in-mind (any sandwich will fulfill you, no sandwich is "better" than another in regards to that goal [ie- question 3]).

The second question basically involves moving from inefficiency to efficiency. It's moving from pointless (bad) decision to meaningful decisions. Exploiting the rules is where this really shines. This is very obvious in the beginning of the game when you have fewer cities and fewer government policies. If you want to build a lot of units, is it better to have the +50% card or the -1 gold per unit card? While it might seem obvious in this sense, you'd be surprised how many people **** this up. If you really want to make the most of this, when you slot that +50% card, switch all your cities to build units that are affected or wait a turn of turn for vital things to finish (such as buildings that trigger vital eurekas or help the 3rd question).

The third question is basically -- how am I going to win? That's not always obvious from the start because you have to play the map, play your rivals, and play your own biases. Essentially, all of the first two questions serve the third -- winning. It's a simple question you must ask yourself: "How am I going to win?". You must ask yourself this question fairly often beginning at the end of the ancient era, perhaps later if you get targeted by a serious defensive war. But you must ask it often. When you finally answer it -- begin to go all in. I saw begin because things can change. For example, you don't know everyone on the map -- particularly if you're playing a continents map. Because of this, you might have to reevaluate the third question -- and that's fine. If you did things properly, you're probably setup for whatever the "unknown" has to throw at you. You can't be afraid to take the initiative and cause a lot of trouble for rivals. This doesn't necessarily have to be violent (though it often it). You can get on the good side of one of your rivals neighbors and then declare joint war. Maybe you don't participate much (or at all) in that war, but the goal isn't to capture the cities of your opponent -- it's to slow them down.

So, I think Victoria's bullet list is a good run-down and my three basic tactics are how to implement them.

 

[Kwami]

Wait a minute here. The OP was vexed by the immortal difficulty setting and now we're in a monumentality golden age?

Sure, why not?

 

[BarbarianHunter]

Sure, why not?

I guess because allot of people who don't have any issues what-so-ever with the immortal level have trouble with achieving golden ages. I mean, sure there are great strategies that can be built around monumentality golden ages but you have to have sufficient faith, allot of experience @ immortal, and a fair amount of luck. The OP was having trouble actually winning a game. I figure monumentality golden age strategies may be something of a stretch goal here.

 

[Kwami]

I guess because allot of people who don't have any issues what-so-ever with the immortal level have trouble with achieving golden ages. I mean, sure there are great strategies that can be built around monumentality golden ages but you have to have sufficient faith, allot of experience @ immortal, and a fair amount of luck. The OP was having trouble actually winning a game. I figure monumentality golden age strategies may be something of a stretch goal here.

Eh, not really. Unless you get a grumpy neighbor, you'll do pretty much the same kinds of things for the first era of turns on any difficulty level. Scout for players, city states, natural wonders, and tribal villages, take out barbarian camps, found cities near volcanoes and flood plains, maybe get a lucky suzerain. You can't always guarantee a golden age, of course, but if you play decently, you'll get one most of the time. And that Classical golden age is just the best! But if you miss it, you should have a good chance at getting the next one. Build a boat, build your unique units and infrastructure (if they're early), get a government, etc. All the good stuff that you'd do on any difficulty.

Unless you get a grumpy neighbor that ruins everything! But honestly, those games are rarely worth grinding through, anyway.

 

[Archon_Wing]

You can get +100% production to settlers though.

 

[kb27787]

I guess because allot of people who don't have any issues what-so-ever with the immortal level have trouble with achieving golden ages. I mean, sure there are great strategies that can be built around monumentality golden ages but you have to have sufficient faith, allot of experience @ immortal, and a fair amount of luck. The OP was having trouble actually winning a game. I figure monumentality golden age strategies may be something of a stretch goal here.

Agreed... How on earth do ppl get classical golden age so consistently on higher difficulties? Scout first? (that is, if you don't mind running into a whole bunch of AI too early and cannot afford delegations for them, leading to war) also I cannot imagine getting that many huts when AI get bonus scouts. For me it is one in 20+ games or so that I could get 24 pts in the first era...

Secondly all the talk of monumentality is useless unless you have harvest pantheon or some insane source of faith generation. Unless you play one of the bonus early faith civs this is hardly every game.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I can reliably get a dark age. Oh, that's not what you want.

Monumentality also affects gold purchases cost too. Thus it's always good honestly.


I also posted this overly long thing on Reddit recently: While it's geared towards a Culture Victory, because that was the topic and probably not the most optimal thing because it's just the way I play; this is also going to win every game on Immortal eventually..

Spoiler :

Most of my games since Rise and Fall have been cultural victories on Emperor on Normal Speed, though I've done some on Immortal as well and it's basically the same thing. I have not won a cultural game on Deity since Vanilla, and haven't won at all on that since R&F so I can't speak for that.

First off, remember that early wonders like Hanging Gardens come with a big opportunity cost when you could expand. Sometimes if you lack the production you're better off just building other things. Wonders don't generate much tourism on their own-- unless they have slots for work.

The second thing is that early game culture is especially important, so build/buy those monuments. You really want that t1 government to boost yourself, but more importantly you also need Drama and Poetry to build that first theater district. The timing of these two things is essentially the #1 metric of how good your win is going to be.

Finally, you want to meet people to get tourism from the. Send them trade routes and open borders. You may have to research ships faster to get this done fast. Try not to get denounced because that denies open borders. If they start to dislike you, get their open borders because denouncement does not cancel it!

Of course, some maps are going to be faster than others, but you really need to aim for those inspirations. So here's my typical game plan.

• Builder for 3 improvements to boost Craftsmanship
  
  
• 2 cities, ideally with fresh water, and some water/food to grow to a total of 6 to boost Early Empire. Both should have monuments. Do not wait forever to build the most optimal city. Just functional cities are fine.
  
  
• Before Craftsmanship finishes, try to squeeze in a scout and a monument in. This isn't always possible.
  
  
• Enough troops to at least hold off an invasion and ideally pillage a neighbor. Usually this a minimum of 2 warriors and 1 ranged unit per city-- you want to garrison the city center with a warrior so it goes to 20 strength. Try to save up some gold so you can buy a warrior immediately.
  
  
• @ Early Empire, install Magnus, use the +50% settler card to build a settler or two. I usually only manage one. This city also builds a monument. One of these cities should have a lot of choppable objects and should be in a spot where Colosseum will work.
  
  
• Sometimes you cannot settle a 3rd city because someone is too close. In this case you may want to consider using archers and warriors to take or pillage out their cities. You can just forget about settlers for now in this case.
  
  
• @ Settler Completion, try to build a campus in the capital to boost State Workforce. I usually can't finish this inspiration on time, so not the end of the world. Also try building a trader in the meantime.
  
  
• @ State Workforce, put in the +15% wonder card and build the Oracle-- chop this out. The Oracle helps you get those Great Person points, though don't fret if you can't build it. I usually take Liang here for the chops and improvements, but if you're already setup, then starting on Pingala is fine too.
  
  
• One of your other cities should start on a government plaza and then a campus. If your city is struggling with growth, then I'd take the government plaza. Do not be picky about plaza placement-- it doesn't matter if it improves zero districts. You want the promotions.
  
  
• Normally, you would get Political Philosophy here, but if your production is good; let's say Oracle is already done and you got lucky with a culture CS, you can go Drama and Poetry first and immediately build a theater square.
  
  
• For your first government, usually I would pick Autocracy to build the next wonders faster. If you don't need the wonder boost, then Classical Republic will be fine. If you have iron, then pick Oligarchy and beat someone up if you aren't already. America in particular should usually pick Oligarchy to take advantage of their same continent combat bonus and diplomatic --> wildcard slot.
  
  
• @ Drama and Poetry, place a theater square down. Before you build an amphitheater you may want to consider some wonders...
  
  
• Apadana is a good wonder, but you need to build it quick. If you took a while to get a government, I'd skip it entirely. Same with the Great Library. It often goes too fast to be built.
  
  
• When you're done with all that, build a commercial hub in your Oracle City. If you're lucky, you'll get the Merchant that puts great work slots in the hub. If not, you get some gold which isn't bad either.
  
  
• At this point you should be getting your government plaza building; this really depends on what you need. Ancestral Hall is good since you'll need more cities, but Warlord's Throne is good if you are expanding via army.
  
  
• By now, Pingala should be in your capital, and you should get all the promotions besides the space one. Usually I choose the culture and grants promotions first, but if your science is poor, I'd actually choose that.
  
  
• You should be aiming to get Apprenticeship for the production boost, and then machinery for Crossbows to defend and to unlock Printing. Printing will double tourism for writing so that really needs to come fast. Of course, it may be necessary to detour to Knights if you really need to fight.
  
  
• You could build a Industrial Zone in your Oracle City to get Great Engineers, but see if the good ones are available and if there is competition.

After this, it really starts to depend and this is getting long enough so. You of course want to stick theater squares in every city you can. The t2 buildings are rather give and take, if you can build them, that's nice, if you can't, it's not the end of the world. Artifacts are better; artists can be ignored and you can do whatever you want with them.

The rest of the game... well honestly I don't think it's that important. The above is like 90% of what it takes to win while the below is just going to improve your win speed. So focus on the above

• Kilwa and Forbidden City are great wonders, but I'd say Kilwa is better if you have some CS's. It's not really a big deal if either is lost, so don't toss everything on it.
  
  
• You really want Industrialization because it is a further production boost and gives you access to coal plants. Don't build Ruhr Valley right away; you're better off building other critical wonders like Oxford (more writing) and Big Ben (more gold) first; if you build Ruhr first, you'll often lose these wonders.
  
  
• Getting alliances can help a lot; not only do you get more tourism if you send them a trade route, but also extra bonuses too. Ideally all your trade routes at this point are allied trade routes.
  
  
• If you have an improvement that gives culture, you'll want flight earlier.
  
  
• Around Nationalism, you want to start to save up faith to get Rock Bands, so put down some Holy Sites in good production cities and try to ask someone for a Religious Alliance. Even if you don't have a religion. You just want faith so run some faith projects.
  
  
• Beeline Rock bands. Yes, no t3 government yet as that reduces your tourism anyways. When you reach Cold War, switch to Theocracy and buy as many Rock Bands as you can. If you're saved around 5-6k faith, congrats, you're already going to win the game just from these Rock Bands. But if you haven't, you'll have to play it out. (The horror!)
  
  
• Target your Rock Bands at the civ with the highest amount of domestic tourists. Try to settle a city near them (any random Island will do) so you can train your Rock Bands from there.
  
  
• When your Rock Bands are playing, grab Cultural Heritage if you haven't already. Also take the time to build Bolshoi Theatre and Broadway so you may get a chance at boosting yourself through the civics tree.
  
  
• When you've exhausted all your faith, ideally you'll want to switch to Democracy especially if you have allies. Buy Archeological Museums and Archeologists in any city that hasn't done them yet and you can afford it. You also want to look at plopping Resorts wherever you can too, but this is again give or take.
  
  
• On the Science side of things, you'll want to drop all your research and go for Computers for an additional +25% tourism boost. You may want Steel if you feel unsafe; and you'll want it eventually to build the Effel Tower but I find the game's over by then.
  
  
• Head straight for Social Media (Tourism from trade routes) and Environmentalism. (additional tourism).
  
  
• Build the Maracana (ideally chop) for a bit of extra yields.
  
  
• Opera House and Hermitage are almost never worth unless you are Sweden or if you're Eleanor and really bored.

This should more or less end the game here. Sometimes the person with the highest tourists will grow out of control, and that will require more Rock Band spam, but it may also require you to kill them off, especially if you've passed everyone else's domestic tourists. You definitely cannot allow anyone to launch the moon landing as that gives them a lot of culture (It's also apparently bugged to give more too)