Why is Korea in the game?

[Bast]

I don't get it. There was never a Korean empire. For most, if not all of history, the Korean peninsula has always been a vassal of China or Japan. They've never been a superpower nor are they one now.

I'm raising this point because we've only NOW had a South East Asian civilization in the form of Khmer. The Khmer Empire was the longest continuous empire in South East Asia. If it takes that much for a South East Asian civ to be in the game, why is it so easy for Korea to be in the game?

I could easily see an argument for why a country like Burma or Siam should be in before Korea.

I don't know, I just think it's double standards. I just picked up on this now. Why is Korea in the game?

 

[realbebop]

For the market. CIV is just a commercial product, not a bible

 

[yewsef]

I've never heard of a Korean Civilization or Empire. I just know Korea being a modern country like Venzuella, Sudan, Pakistan. But then again I am ignorant about most of the far eastern civilizations.

I can recognize the Japanese and Chinese even Khmer. The civilization of Budhists in the south-eastern Asia is very well recognized and distinguished between them and China. I'm not saying Korea has no history, don't get me wrong, what I'm saying there are many other civilization who are more recognized than Korea.

Why Korea is in the game? The gaming market of Korea is HUGE!! VERY huge. If I was developing Civ4 I'd definitely add Korea to sell more copies.

 

[Rancid Sushi]

Because Korea pwns. I'm going to prove it on the Strategy & Tips board. ;-)

 

[Bast]

I'm not saying Korea has no history, don't get me wrong, what I'm saying there are many other civilization who are more recognized than Korea.

Same.

Why Korea is in the game? The gaming market of Korea is HUGE!! VERY huge. If I was developing Civ4 I'd definitely add Korea to sell more copies.

In other words, 'money talks'.

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

*sigh.* ANOTHER one of these posts.

First off, Korea is one of the oldest surviving civilizations; it's history goes far back by thousands of years. Ancient Korean civilization from the Gojoseon to later Samguk periods encompassed the Korean peninsula and a large swath of territory in present-day Manchuria. Although the Han Dynasty of China set up commanderies on the Korean peninsula, Chinese grasp of the region was not strong and were eventually driven out by the Goguryeo kingdom. The Shilla kingdom in the first Samguk Period allied with the Tang Dynasty but eventually drove out the Tang to establish the Unified Shilla kingdom, which encompassed the Korean peninsula and was in competition with the Balhae kingdom (which considered itself a successor to Goguryeo and consisted of Goguryeo remnants and Malgal peoples). Basically, Manchuria up to the end of the Tang Dynasty period was occupied by Korean states.

Korean civilization was a major part of the development of Japanese civilization. As the Yamato state was forming, many dignitaries from Korea visited the Japanese courts. Artisans, craftsmen, and scholars from Korea introduced various new technologies from the mainland. Also, the Japanese Emperor Kammu's mother was from the Korean Baekje kingdom.

That Korea was a "vassal" is a myth perpetuated by those lacking in knowledge of East Asian history or those that simply buy modern Chinese nationalist propaganda. Korea was at several times a "tributary" state to whatever Chinese dynasty was in power, but this is different from a "vassal" state in that Korean kingdoms were independent and acted on their own accord. Korea was colonized by Japan only in modern periods. In early periods, Korean kingdoms were in fierce competition with China and many Chinese attempts at invasions were successfully repulsed (one of the most embarassing being the Sui Dynasty's failed invasion of the Goguryeo kingdom.).

From a historical perspective, the stories of China and Japan can't simply be told without Korea. The Korean peninsula has always been involved.

This being said, please do some research before dismissing certain civilizations.

 

[yewsef]

*sigh.* ANOTHER one of these posts.

First off, Korea is one of the oldest surviving civilizations; it's history goes far back by thousands of years. Ancient Korean civilization from the Gojoseon to later Samguk periods encompassed the Korean peninsula and a large swath of territory in present-day Manchuria. Although the Han Dynasty of China set up commanderies on the Korean peninsula, Chinese grasp of the region was not strong and were eventually driven out by the Goguryeo kingdom. The Shilla kingdom in the first Samguk Period allied with the Tang Dynasty but eventually drove out the Tang to establish the Unified Shilla kingdom, which encompassed the Korean peninsula and was in competition with the Balhae kingdom (which considered itself a successor to Goguryeo and consisted of Goguryeo remnants and Malgal peoples). Basically, Manchuria up to the end of the Tang Dynasty period was occupied by Korean states.

Korean civilization was a major part of the development of Japanese civilization. As the Yamato state was forming, many dignitaries from Korea visited the Japanese courts. Artisans, craftsmen, and scholars from Korea introduced various new technologies from the mainland. Also, the Japanese Emperor Kammu's mother was from the Korean Baekje kingdom.

That Korea was a "vassal" is a myth perpetuated by those lacking in knowledge of East Asian history or those that simply buy modern Chinese nationalist propaganda. Korea was at several times a "tributary" state to whatever Chinese dynasty was in power, but this is different from a "vassal" state in that Korean kingdoms were independent and acted on their own accord. Korea was colonized by Japan only in modern periods. In early periods, Korean kingdoms were in fierce competition with China and many Chinese attempts at invasions were successfully repulsed (one of the most embarassing being the Sui Dynasty's failed invasion of the Goguryeo kingdom.).

From a historical perspective, the stories of China and Japan can't simply be told without Korea. The Korean peninsula has always been involved.

This being said, please do some research before dismissing certain civilizations.

Hello my friend Ogedei

Thanks for elaborating on the history of Korea. It is indeed a great civilization that survived, but there are many civilization that survived and I mean many. There are greater civilizations in the history that hasn't been included, which is what this topic talks about. It is not about Korea lacking a civilization but rather it is the missing of important civilizations like Byzantium civilization, Babylonian, Assyrian, Hittites, and others. These civilizations not only survived but they conquered the areas around them and contributed in many things like distinguished culture, art, science, engineering and agriculture.

 

[ParkCungHee]

*sigh.* ANOTHER one of these posts.

First off, Korea is one of the oldest surviving civilizations; it's history goes far back by thousands of years. Ancient Korean civilization from the Gojoseon to later Samguk periods encompassed the Korean peninsula and a large swath of territory in present-day Manchuria. Although the Han Dynasty of China set up commanderies on the Korean peninsula, Chinese grasp of the region was not strong and were eventually driven out by the Goguryeo kingdom. The Shilla kingdom in the first Samguk Period allied with the Tang Dynasty but eventually drove out the Tang to establish the Unified Shilla kingdom, which encompassed the Korean peninsula and was in competition with the Balhae kingdom (which considered itself a successor to Goguryeo and consisted of Goguryeo remnants and Malgal peoples). Basically, Manchuria up to the end of the Tang Dynasty period was occupied by Korean states.

Korean civilization was a major part of the development of Japanese civilization. As the Yamato state was forming, many dignitaries from Korea visited the Japanese courts. Artisans, craftsmen, and scholars from Korea introduced various new technologies from the mainland. Also, the Japanese Emperor Kammu's mother was from the Korean Baekje kingdom.

That Korea was a "vassal" is a myth perpetuated by those lacking in knowledge of East Asian history or those that simply buy modern Chinese nationalist propaganda. Korea was at several times a "tributary" state to whatever Chinese dynasty was in power, but this is different from a "vassal" state in that Korean kingdoms were independent and acted on their own accord. Korea was colonized by Japan only in modern periods. In early periods, Korean kingdoms were in fierce competition with China and many Chinese attempts at invasions were successfully repulsed (one of the most embarassing being the Sui Dynasty's failed invasion of the Goguryeo kingdom.).

From a historical perspective, the stories of China and Japan can't simply be told without Korea. The Korean peninsula has always been involved.

This being said, please do some research before dismissing certain civilizations.

PWNT. Thank you for the much needed post.

 

[Parmenion]

In my opinion, a 'civilization' as defined by it's inclusion into the game, should fulfill two categories as follows :

1) They should have at some point established a city or polis - this is arguably one of the most defining traits that historians use to describe civilization.
2) They should have contributed to the world in some way, by a scientific discovery, great work or other long-standing project that is universally recognised.

Thus, to take a few classic examples, the Romans would qualify (lots of cities, invention of concrete/underfloor heating, the arch etc...) whilst the Iroquois would not - although they had a very rich culture, they didn't build permanent cities. Some would argue that the Mongols also wouldn't qualify due to the lack of great-works, but I would say that carving out the biggest empire the world has ever seen is fairly impressive.

Now we come to the case in question, that of Korea. They definitely built cities, but what great works or scientific accomplishments are they credited with?
Well, they are well known to be the first culture to build armour-plated ships as well as other weapons such as the Bikeokjinchonlae and the hwacha. They also developed the world's first metal movable type printing press - well before Johann Gutenberg. They also built an observatory called Cheomseongdae, which is considered one of the world's oldest surviving astronomical observatories.
An iventor named Jang Yeong-sil is also widely credited for inventing automated water-clocks, a water gauge and a rain gauge.

I could continue, as could someone a bit more familiar with Korea and it's history (any Koreans on these boards care to comment?) but there's no need.

I think, therefore, that Korea is justified in it's inclusion into the game.

(You also have a point with the other SE Asian civs. I would agree that the Khmer nation should have been in the game, but then again so should the Babylonians, Hittites, Sumerians, Mayans and countless others. Where do we draw the line?)

 

[Italian Celtic]

It's only a money question

 

[ParkCungHee]

Thus, to take a few classic examples, the Romans would qualify (lots of cities, invention of concrete/underfloor heating, the arch etc...) whilst the Iroquois would not - although they had a very rich culture, they didn't build permanent cities.

Er...yes they did.

 

[yewsef]

Er...yes they did.

I believe a village doesn't qualify as a city even if you construct a stockade around it. City is a megalopolis or something of that size.

 

[Parmenion]

That's an interesting picture, but I think I have to agree with yewsef.
It's no more a city than the Alamo was a city, despite it's historical significance.

Which brings up another interesting point;
Where the oppida of the celtic peoples considered to be cities or where they just fortified villages? (See Alesia and Bibracte)

Would this fact possibly exclude them from Civ given that my previous hypothesis is true?

 

[nameless_one]

Does it really matter?

 

[Parmenion]

It obviously matters to Bast who started this thread.
If you feel that it doesn't then why reply in such a way? In fact why read the post in the first place? The clue was in the title.

 

[Mango]

It has nothing to do with the Korean civilization and everything to do with the fact that South Korea is probably one of the 2-3 biggest markets for Firaxis after the US.

 

[Bast]

2) They should have contributed to the world in some way, by a scientific discovery, great work or other long-standing project that is universally recognised.

Sorry but scientific discoveries and great works are individual works. You can't credit a civilization for what a person or persons did.

We don't have the English Civilization because of Shakespeare nor the Germans because of Albert Einstein. What is it that makes the civilization great?

What you proceeded to give me were individual discoveries and works. So no I can't buy it.

A long-standing project, ok I'll give you that like a wonder or another national achievement like conquest.

A few brilliant citizens do not make a brilliant civilization.

 

[Bast]

*sigh.* ANOTHER one of these posts.

First off, Korea is one of the oldest surviving civilizations; it's history goes far back by thousands of years. Ancient Korean civilization from the Gojoseon to later Samguk periods encompassed the Korean peninsula and a large swath of territory in present-day Manchuria. Although the Han Dynasty of China set up commanderies on the Korean peninsula, Chinese grasp of the region was not strong and were eventually driven out by the Goguryeo kingdom. The Shilla kingdom in the first Samguk Period allied with the Tang Dynasty but eventually drove out the Tang to establish the Unified Shilla kingdom, which encompassed the Korean peninsula and was in competition with the Balhae kingdom (which considered itself a successor to Goguryeo and consisted of Goguryeo remnants and Malgal peoples). Basically, Manchuria up to the end of the Tang Dynasty period was occupied by Korean states.

Korean civilization was a major part of the development of Japanese civilization. As the Yamato state was forming, many dignitaries from Korea visited the Japanese courts. Artisans, craftsmen, and scholars from Korea introduced various new technologies from the mainland. Also, the Japanese Emperor Kammu's mother was from the Korean Baekje kingdom.

That Korea was a "vassal" is a myth perpetuated by those lacking in knowledge of East Asian history or those that simply buy modern Chinese nationalist propaganda. Korea was at several times a "tributary" state to whatever Chinese dynasty was in power, but this is different from a "vassal" state in that Korean kingdoms were independent and acted on their own accord. Korea was colonized by Japan only in modern periods. In early periods, Korean kingdoms were in fierce competition with China and many Chinese attempts at invasions were successfully repulsed (one of the most embarassing being the Sui Dynasty's failed invasion of the Goguryeo kingdom.).

From a historical perspective, the stories of China and Japan can't simply be told without Korea. The Korean peninsula has always been involved.

This being said, please do some research before dismissing certain civilizations.

So? The whole of Middle Eastern and arguably European history cannot be told without Israel (or the Hebrew civilization) but do we see them in the game? They have the history, they had the military conquests and they had cultural, linguistic and other influences on all surrounding areas. Where are they?

Could it be that Israeli gaming industry is non-existent compared to the Korean gaming industry?

It's not a bad thing to admit, that 'money talks'.

 

[Bast]

Hello my friend Ogedei

Thanks for elaborating on the history of Korea. It is indeed a great civilization that survived, but there are many civilization that survived and I mean many. There are greater civilizations in the history that hasn't been included, which is what this topic talks about. It is not about Korea lacking a civilization but rather it is the missing of important civilizations like Byzantium civilization, Babylonian, Assyrian, Hittites, and others. These civilizations not only survived but they conquered the areas around them and contributed in many things like distinguished culture, art, science, engineering and agriculture.

Exactly!! Even from an Asian perspective, I think civilizations like Burma and Siam deserve to be in it before Korea. At least they built empires and in the case of Burma actually has a wonder in the game too.

 

[Bast]

It has nothing to do with the Korean civilization and everything to do with the fact that South Korea is probably one of the 2-3 biggest markets for Firaxis after the US.

Yep. Japan is probably second right? I'm actually surprised they didn't get 2nd and 3rd leaders etc...