Why is Korea in the game?

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

Does it have a history as long as those of Egypt, India, Mesopotamia, Persia or China - of course not.

Korean history is as ancient as Chinese history. China existed as a unified power for half of its history since there were centuries of division and or civil war whereas Korean dynasties enjoyed more stability. That's not to belittle Chinese civilization, of course; one form of "Chinese" civilization or another had always existed.

Was it ever the center of civilization in the realms of philosophy and science as were the ancient Greeks, the Arabs of the Middle Ages, or the French of the Enlightenment - no.

No. However, Korean civilization did bring about the development of Japanese civilization.

Well, it does seem to have the longevity of more ancient cultures such as those of the Vietnamese or Thais, combined with the current power of newer nations such as Canada or Brazil. So, I guess, why not Korea.

Thailand was mostly under Burmese, Mon, and Khmer influence and control in early periods until the first real "Thai" kingdom in Thailand formed in 1238 CE in Sukhothai. Thai is an ancient culture, but Thai civilization is not ancient compared to the Viets or the Koreans. Viet culture and civilization does reach very far back, however.

Anyway, we already have China, Mongolia, and Japan as East, North, Northeast Asian civs - so while Korea is definately a legitimate second tier civ, I will have to go with the original poster and say a Southeast Asian civ should have come before Korea in the second expansion if they were only going to give one more civ to Asia.

The original poster basically denigrated Korean civilization and culture in a fairly ignorant manner without making any solid arguments except for "money talks," which is a fairly lame argument as Civilization IV is not even sold or advertised in Korea.

I do agree that Korea in Civ terms is a "second tier" civilization and should only be included in the second or third expansion; I just do not agree with the ignorant notions that Korea is an insignificant civilization, was merely a "vassal" for most of its history, or had no history at all.

 

[gettingfat]

To sum up my views on this issue

• From the perspective of filling in regional voids, A SE Asian civ is long overdue and if there is priority, it should be ahead of Korea
• That's said, Korea is a legitimate candidate, just does not belong to the first-tier, and it's definitely not a puppet of Chinese
• Civ 4 is already very Euro-American rich. Maybe people should honestly ask themselves why they feel it's fine seeing Celts gets two leaders, Ottoman gets two leaders, French gets 3 leaders, Russia gets three leaders, etc., and even "native Americans" have to be in the game, but are looking for every detail to get rid of Korea and Mongols.
• Not too many Koreans play Civs. The "money talks" premise is simply unfounded. It's like people think putting in Lucy Liu will make a movie automatically sell better in China, even no Chinese care about Lucy Liu to start with.

 

[Traitorfish]

Here's an interesting little nugget- as late as 1401, Shogun Ashikaga Yoshimitsu sent a letter to the Ming emperor in which he referred to himself as "Your subject, the King of Japan".
Found that by accident while browserising the webernets, thought it may be of interest to those who insist that Korea is but a pale shadow of Japan...

 

[cybrxkhan]

Here's an interesting little nugget- as late as 1401, Shogun Ashikaga Yoshimitsu sent a letter to the Ming emperor in which he referred to himself as "Your subject, the King of Japan".
Found that by accident while browserising the webernets, thought it may be of interest to those who insist that Korea is but a pale shadow of Japan...

a lot of vassals to China in the old time used to call themselves "inferior"... from Vietnam to Malacca to even some African states i have heard.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Korean history is as ancient as Chinese history. China existed as a unified power for half of its history since there were centuries of division and or civil war whereas Korean dynasties enjoyed more stability. That's not to belittle Chinese civilization, of course; one form of "Chinese" civilization or another had always existed.

although us Viets claim to have a long history as long as the Chinese, it is obviously false, or at least mostly ficticious. im not sure about the Koreans, but i have a suspection that us little siblings of China really want to look awesome like our big brother, so we make up tales.

Thailand was mostly under Burmese, Mon, and Khmer influence and control in early periods until the first real "Thai" kingdom in Thailand formed in 1238 CE in Sukhothai. Thai is an ancient culture, but Thai civilization is not ancient compared to the Viets or the Koreans. Viet culture and civilization does reach very far back, however.

heh. we Viets are very old. five thousand years old, according to ancient Propagan- i mean history.

 

[porto_alegre_xP]

Because of the same motive that America and all other civilizations are there. Firaxis want.

 

[Traitorfish]

a lot of vassals to China in the old time used to call themselves "inferior"... from Vietnam to Malacca to even some African states i have heard.

Of course-vassalage is in itself an acknowledgment of one party's percieved inferiority- but how many of these vassals are in the game, let alone as unquestioned as Japan?
I didn't intend it to be a particularly cutting blow to the anti-Korea faction (if there even is such a thing...) I just thought it showed an interesting point- that Japan, as well as Korea, was considered a Chinese vassal at certain points in it's history, yet the inclusion of Japan in the game is generally unquestioned.

 

[cybrxkhan]

^right! see? even the invincible killer Viets called China "big bro".

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

^right! see? even the invincible killer Viets called China "big bro".

Most empires and civilizations in the region did. That was how trade and foreign relations with China worked. Basically swallow your pride and get something possibly lucrative out of it.

It was also a way to show off back in those days; if you could afford to send lavish tribute to China, you were considered rich and significant. One of the kings of the Thai Ayutthaya kingdom zealously dispatched numerous tribute missions to China, so much that the Chinese emperor even asked the Ayutthaya king to send less tribute because Ayutthaya envoys kept showing up in the capital and taking up court time.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Most empires and civilizations in the region did. That was how trade and foreign relations with China worked. Basically swallow your pride and get something possibly lucrative out of it.

It was also a way to show off back in those days. One of the kings of the Thai Ayutthaya kingdom zealously dispatched numerous tribute missions to China, so much that the Chinese emperor even asked the Ayutthaya king to send less tribute because Ayutthaya envoys kept showing up in the capital and taking up court time.

i remember reading WHY they liked taking up court time - apparently, China had so many pretty women to leave around at the ambassadorial area. seriously, it said that in some book i read.

 

[porto_alegre_xP]

although us Viets claim to have a long history as long as the Chinese, it is obviously false, or at least mostly ficticious. im not sure about the Koreans, but i have a suspection that us little siblings of China really want to look awesome like our big brother, so we make up tales.




heh. we Viets are very old. five thousand years old, according to ancient Propagan- i mean history.

Hi Civ-Of-The-Week-Man. I finally saw you again.

 

[porto_alegre_xP]

the current power of newer nations such as Canada or Brazil

my god. everyone loves Brazil, we're in all posts!