Why is Korea in the game?

This is really ridiculous.

@Bast

Whats your purpose? Why do you keep posting this? Do you really want to know why or something else? Dont you really know why? Do you want an answer or want to insult KOREAN Civilizations? Do not be rude. If you really want to know why KOREA is in Civ4, just read replies and say "Thanks for your reply, I think I have to learn about KOREA." If you do not concur that Korea is on Civ4, just send a letter to Firaxis. They made it. Ask them why.
 
@Bast

Whats your purpose? Why do you keep posting this? Do you really want to know why or something else? Dont you really know why? Do you want an answer or want to insult KOREAN Civilizations? Do not be rude. If you really want to know why KOREA is in Civ4, just read replies and say "Thanks for your reply, I think I have to learn about KOREA." If you do not concur that Korea is on Civ4, just send a letter to Firaxis. They made it. Ask them why.

No, I already have my answer - MONEY TALKS.

It just wouldn't hurt if people admitted this instead of pretending like Korea actually deserves to be in it ABOVE other civs that aren't.
 
Korea has a great culture, and an amazing history. They deserve to be in the game. Admitadly, they didn't really have a great empire or an astounding history, but they have been culturally independent through all the vassalage, etc. They have thier own alphabet, used their own calander for a long time, and a relativley independent music style, although admitadly influenced. They also have a large number of UNESCO world heratige sites. And despite having been a Chinese/Japanese vassal for most of its history, it is now a center point on the world stage.
 
No, I already have my answer - MONEY TALKS.

It just wouldn't hurt if people admitted this instead of pretending like Korea actually deserves to be in it ABOVE other civs that aren't.

Why doesn't it deserve to be in? Because it doesn't live up to your imaginary standards?
 
No, I already have my answer - MONEY TALKS.

Now, you're talking. It isn't the true reason. IMO, Faraxis wanted Fin/Pro civ in Asia. Korea is one of Asian civs. Thats all. As a matter of the fact, Civ4 isn't popular in Korea. I think a lot of Koreans have enjoyed STARCRAFT, not Civ.

No, I already have my answer - MONEY TALKS.

So, do you want to denounce Firaxis? If it's true, whats wrong with you?

No, I already have my answer - MONEY TALKS.

In fact, I hope that Korea has two leaders. Someone was in North Korea. He was very agg/imp. His favorite civic was Slavery without the penanlty. It must be fun, not ridiculous. ONLY FUN, not money.

@Bast
Enjoy Civ4. Do not pay atttention to the dark side. BTW, do you know why Hitler isnt in Warlord? It's more ridiculous than your question.
 
Wait Wait backup - did the guy named ITALIAN CELTIC just say

I am not racist I only think that the Arabs, Mexicans and Chinese would do well staying in their countries

Wow - Does Irony know its Irony?
 
I am not racist I only think that the Arabs, Mexicans and Chinese would do well staying in their countries

Sure, but he forgets to mention a Chinese like me do equally well out of my home country.
 
ds61514 said:
Eh? There have been cases where Korea (more accurately kingdoms in the Korean peninsula) recognized Chinese authority over them. It wasn't just mere tribute but express acknowledgement of the Chinese Emperor's overlordship; notice that the for many dynasties, the term to denote the ruler of whatever political entity at the time was prominent was usually wang (King), while only in Goryeo did they use the term da wang (Emperor).

Your terminology is a bit off here. "Daewang" means "Great King"; "Hwangje" means "Emperor."

China was regarded in a similar manner to the way Europeans regarded Rome and the Pope. Not to say that the Emperor of China had the same status as the Pope, but he was representative of a civilization that people in that part of the world considered the bastion of civilization.

That the Koreans referred to their rulers as "King" also has to do with tradition; Korean tradition regards the first mythological rulers as the "Supreme King." Until the Korean Empire period, Koreans, unlike the Chinese, believed that the title of "Emperor" was reserved for Heaven itself. The Goryeo period rulers did use Imperial terminology, but still did not refer to their ruler as "Emperor" because of this tradition. The mythological founders of Korea were not considered "Emperors" becasue they were considered "representatives" of Heaven. On a side note, even after independence, Vietnamese kingdoms regarded China's supremacy, but locally refferred to their own rulers as "emperor"; basically, naming is merely political lip service.

The use of "Hwangje" (Emperor) was established in the Korean Empire period where the last Joseon rulers were regarded as "Emperors" and various historical kings were elevated to the status of Emperor as a way to indicate the end of the kingdoms tributary (note, not "vassal") status to the Chinese empire.

The relationship between Korean kingdoms and the Chinese dynasties were close, yes, but not always. From the Gojoseon period (approximately 2000 BCE) to the Samguk period (668 CE), Korean tribes, kingdoms, and chiefdoms were in conflict with the Chinese dynasties so much so that they were referred to collectively as part of the Dongyi, the so-called "Eastern Barbarians." Shilla recognized the superiority of the Tang dynasty in order to gain an alliance to defeat its rival and gain supremacy over the region; however, shortly after succeeding, the Shilla kingdom (57 BCE - 935 CE) turned against Tang and drove them out. Manchuria became the Balhae kingdom which was also waged war with the Tang dynasty until a compromise was reached.

That some members here consider Korea as merely a "vassal" of China indicates that people seem only to remember Korea for the ultra-conservative Joseon period and the Japanese colonial period. Believe it or not - Korea has a MUCH longer history than what short-term memories can recall. ;)

On the note of the Japanese tenno: The Japanese unlike the Chinese regarded their tenno as a virtual divinity, descending from the Goddess of the Sun, Amaterasu. Japan for the most part kept to itself so whether or not the Japanese regarded their emperor as an equal or divine didn't really matter all that much to the mainland. From the Asuka Period onwards, they were considered equal in title, but the Japanese did not use the Chinese "Son of Heaven" title since that was reserved for the Chinese monarch. Also, Japanese emperors were typically puppets of their own subject; the regents in the Heian Period and later the Shoguns of the Kamakura, Muromachi, Azuchi-Momoyama, and Tokugawa Periods held the real power.

BTW, Civilization IV likely *isn't* that popular in Korea; none of my 422 students have the vaguest idea of what it is.

And (before anyone makes such an accusation as a weak means of discrediting anything I say here), no, I am not Korean; I am part Vietnamese and part Chinese with Min and Yue heritage. I am a pho lover and damn proud of it. :p
 
And (before anyone makes such an accusation as a weak means of discrediting anything I say here), no, I am not Korean; I am part Vietnamese and part Chinese with Min and Yue heritage. I am a pho lover and damn proud of it. :p

Just curious, how come you don't love Korean food as much as Pho?

And do you communicate with them in English? Some years ago I had a few exchange students coming from Korea living in my dorm, and I had absolutely no idea what they were talking.
 
There are 10 civs from what is generally considered "the West", whereas there are only 6 from Asia (not including the Middle East). Take away Korea and that falls to five. Therefore, as a sheer issue of balance, I'd say Korea should be in.
 
gettingfat said:
Just curious, how come you don't love Korean food as much as Pho?

And do you communicate with them in English? Some years ago I had a few exchange students coming from Korea living in my dorm, and I had absolutely no idea what they were talking.

I love Korean food. It's just that I was pretty much raised on pho. ;) My co-workers speak English competently so they translate things for me and also, I've picked up a bit of Korean. I'm terrible at speaking, but I can sometimes understand the gist of what is said (though what I've been listening to is dialectical Korean and probably isn't common among mainstream Korean).
 
I was simply trying to say it is ridiculous to support Khmer and oppose Korea as someone mentioned that Khmer deserves representation before Korea. Canada is irrelevant to the discussion.

This is really ridiculous. Then, why is Canada a G8 country not in civ? It's more successful than Korea in every way.
 
This reminds me of the Poland Flames a few weeks back, some ignorant fool allows himself to be vunerably raped by his own words
 
I AM A PHO LOVER TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND I INTEND FOR EVERYONE TO EAT IT OR ELSE!!! :mwaha:

they shold have more Asian civs in general. i suppose Firaxis also wants to put Korea in because Korea was in a many other Strategy games, so Firaxis was like "what the heck, maybe some of our customers will recognize them".
 
So? The whole of Middle Eastern and arguably European history cannot be told without Israel (or the Hebrew civilization) but do we see them in the game? They have the history, they had the military conquests and they had cultural, linguistic and other influences on all surrounding areas. Where are they?
But Israel isn't, relatively speaking, all that important- in a region home to the Sumerians, Babylonians and Egyptians, not to mention the Assyrians, Hittites and Phonecians, Israel doesn't rank all that highly. Korea, on the other hand, is in a region in which the only other two nations of importance are China and Japan. In short, Israel is in a region that many consider over-represented as it is, while there's quite a lot of room in East Asia.
Not that I'm adding my support to either side of the argument, I'm just trying to suggest that it's possible that Firaxis had a motivation other than just money.
 
For reference, Europeans were tributaries of the Chinese empire. It was trade with China worked.

There should be a tier criteria of civilizations.
Power
One is, have you ever dominated the world (loosely speaking), or weaker, your region/continent? So US, Britain, Mongols, Alexander, Rome, Spain, Portugal
By region, China, France, Ottomans, Incan, one of Aztec or Mayan, Germany and Japan for a short period...
Weaker, were you ever a great power? Russia, Japan and Germany if you don't believe they qualified for the above, maybe Canada and Australia, Dutch, Italy, Sweden
Culture
Do you have a distinct culture? Most do, so this is more of a restrictive criteria. Like Canada might be out. Minus points if you're a derivative culture, plus if you create new culture that spreads through the world (like hollywood, for better or worse).
Did you make historical contributions? Sumerians
Were you uniquely interesting? Vikings
History
Were you important? This is linked with great power, only you don't have to be so great. Fit in Austria, Korea, Hebrew, and so on.
Were you important throughout history, and bonus points if you survived. Getting tired of examples

So Korea never dominated in the world or in the region, it was not a great power but it was historically important. The culture is distinct, but not amazingly unique. They survived a long time, so bonus points. So it's a 2nd or 3rd tier civilization.
With these criteria, I might rank it above Austria-Hungary. I would rank the Khmer higher, because they were a regional power.
 
Bast, I don't understand why you started this thread. I'm not saying that Korean(or other Civ's in the game) should be immune to any criticism or eligibility concerns. When you claim something publicly, you must present it with your own thoughts and grounds. What was yours? Nothing. You just keep saying that Korea has no significant history but you either ignored or couldn't argue against several good accounts on Korean history and standpoints.

Now I joined this thread a little late, and already looking at a few righteous posts by the likes of Ogedei_the_Mad(thanks ;)) I will not go further into history. Particularly unless someone counter-argues well to support Bast.

I find it interesting people consider both Mongols and Koreans don't deserve to be legitimate "civilizations". And it takes Firaxis forever to grant the SE Asia a shot. It looks like the whole East Asia had only Chinese and Japanese being civilized enough and everybody just fed off from these two. Does it make sense?
(...)
From the perspective of an Asian, I equally can't tell much difference between different European civ. People here claim Mongols are just a bunch of barbaric pillagers with not much culture and they just feed on the civs they conquer, but to me this also applies to the Vikings, but since I know Mongol more I see the uniqueness in Mongols and feel they deserve more than Viking.
(...)

The above post is excellent to illustrate how ignorant a part of world is of the other. I can almost distinguish Korean/Chinese/Japanese faces but not even Vietnamese/Thai. However this does not mean that Vietnamese has no characteristic look over Thai or vice versa. Likewise, I don't know extremely well of difference between history of Sweden/Norway or culture of Portugal/Spain, etc. but certainly there seems to be more ignorance towards Asia than the other way.(Africa should be noted too)

I know from my own experience and other facts that in other parts of the world Asian history education is mostly centered around China and Japan(+ India?). China has been well known for their longstanding Sinocentrism. They saw everything except themselves as "fringe" and "barbarians". Japan has occupied and colonized in the last century and they intentionally looked down Korean history and achievements. Thus it is not surprising to see that non-Asians or those who are not into Asian history don't care about Korea. Well, I can understand that. Do you know that Japan has done just as bad crimes as Nazi(heard of Nanjing massacre, Unit 731, comfort women?), and they still are denying apologies on or acknowledging their past wrongdoings. I'm not going into off topic.. What I'm saying is that commonly known Asian history is China/Japan-centered and other significant regions are underrepresented. I don't blame ignorance. It is a little research and interest that is needed. :)

Spoiler :
*sigh.* ANOTHER one of these posts. :crazyeye:

First off, Korea is one of the oldest surviving civilizations; it's history goes far back by thousands of years. Ancient Korean civilization from the Gojoseon to later Samguk periods encompassed the Korean peninsula and a large swath of territory in present-day Manchuria. Although the Han Dynasty of China set up commanderies on the Korean peninsula, Chinese grasp of the region was not strong and were eventually driven out by the Goguryeo kingdom. The Shilla kingdom in the first Samguk Period allied with the Tang Dynasty but eventually drove out the Tang to establish the Unified Shilla kingdom, which encompassed the Korean peninsula and was in competition with the Balhae kingdom (which considered itself a successor to Goguryeo and consisted of Goguryeo remnants and Malgal peoples). Basically, Manchuria up to the end of the Tang Dynasty period was occupied by Korean states.

Korean civilization was a major part of the development of Japanese civilization. As the Yamato state was forming, many dignitaries from Korea visited the Japanese courts. Artisans, craftsmen, and scholars from Korea introduced various new technologies from the mainland. Also, the Japanese Emperor Kammu's mother was from the Korean Baekje kingdom.

That Korea was a "vassal" is a myth perpetuated by those lacking in knowledge of East Asian history or those that simply buy modern Chinese nationalist propaganda. Korea was at several times a "tributary" state to whatever Chinese dynasty was in power, but this is different from a "vassal" state in that Korean kingdoms were independent and acted on their own accord. Korea was colonized by Japan only in modern periods. In early periods, Korean kingdoms were in fierce competition with China and many Chinese attempts at invasions were successfully repulsed (one of the most embarassing being the Sui Dynasty's failed invasion of the Goguryeo kingdom.).

From a historical perspective, the stories of China and Japan can't simply be told without Korea. The Korean peninsula has always been involved.

This being said, please do some research before dismissing certain civilizations. :crazyeye:

Your terminology is a bit off here. "Daewang" means "Great King"; "Hwangje" means "Emperor."

China was regarded in a similar manner to the way Europeans regarded Rome and the Pope. Not to say that the Emperor of China had the same status as the Pope, but he was representative of a civilization that people in that part of the world considered the bastion of civilization.

That the Koreans referred to their rulers as "King" also has to do with tradition; Korean tradition regards the first mythological rulers as the "Supreme King." Until the Korean Empire period, Koreans, unlike the Chinese, believed that the title of "Emperor" was reserved for Heaven itself. The Goryeo period rulers did use Imperial terminology, but still did not refer to their ruler as "Emperor" because of this tradition. The mythological founders of Korea were not considered "Emperors" becasue they were considered "representatives" of Heaven. On a side note, even after independence, Vietnamese kingdoms regarded China's supremacy, but locally refferred to their own rulers as "emperor"; basically, naming is merely political lip service.

The use of "Hwangje" (Emperor) was established in the Korean Empire period where the last Joseon rulers were regarded as "Emperors" and various historical kings were elevated to the status of Emperor as a way to indicate the end of the kingdoms tributary (note, not "vassal") status to the Chinese empire.

The relationship between Korean kingdoms and the Chinese dynasties were close, yes, but not always. From the Gojoseon period (approximately 2000 BCE) to the Samguk period (668 CE), Korean tribes, kingdoms, and chiefdoms were in conflict with the Chinese dynasties so much so that they were referred to collectively as part of the Dongyi, the so-called "Eastern Barbarians." Shilla recognized the superiority of the Tang dynasty in order to gain an alliance to defeat its rival and gain supremacy over the region; however, shortly after succeeding, the Shilla kingdom (57 BCE - 935 CE) turned against Tang and drove them out. Manchuria became the Balhae kingdom which was also waged war with the Tang dynasty until a compromise was reached.

That some members here consider Korea as merely a "vassal" of China indicates that people seem only to remember Korea for the ultra-conservative Joseon period and the Japanese colonial period. Believe it or not - Korea has a MUCH longer history than what short-term memories can recall. ;)

On the note of the Japanese tenno: The Japanese unlike the Chinese regarded their tenno as a virtual divinity, descending from the Goddess of the Sun, Amaterasu. Japan for the most part kept to itself so whether or not the Japanese regarded their emperor as an equal or divine didn't really matter all that much to the mainland. From the Asuka Period onwards, they were considered equal in title, but the Japanese did not use the Chinese "Son of Heaven" title since that was reserved for the Chinese monarch. Also, Japanese emperors were typically puppets of their own subject; the regents in the Heian Period and later the Shoguns of the Kamakura, Muromachi, Azuchi-Momoyama, and Tokugawa Periods held the real power.

BTW, Civilization IV likely *isn't* that popular in Korea; none of my 422 students have the vaguest idea of what it is.

And (before anyone makes such an accusation as a weak means of discrediting anything I say here), no, I am not Korean; I am part Vietnamese and part Chinese with Min and Yue heritage. I am a pho lover and damn proud of it. :p


I cannot but remark these very good posts by Ogedei_the_Mad(..quoted above with spoiler tags due to length) It is an interesting read. I definitely believed he is a Korean until the last lines.

And one more thing is that Civilization 4 is not sold in Korea. The franchise series 2 and up to 3-PTW were commercial in the country but not anymore. Probably that could explain not many Koreans are around here too.

You are repeatedly grumbling "MONEY TALKS" but in reality Firaxis makes no money at all out of Korea. So stop making up your own reasons just because you cannot convince yourself.
 
For reference, Europeans were tributaries of the Chinese empire. It was trade with China worked.

There should be a tier criteria of civilizations.
Power
One is, have you ever dominated the world (loosely speaking), or weaker, your region/continent? So US, Britain, Mongols, Alexander, Rome, Spain, Portugal
By region, China, France, Ottomans, Incan, one of Aztec or Mayan, Germany and Japan for a short period...
Weaker, were you ever a great power? Russia, Japan and Germany if you don't believe they qualified for the above, maybe Canada and Australia, Dutch, Italy, Sweden
Culture
Do you have a distinct culture? Most do, so this is more of a restrictive criteria. Like Canada might be out. Minus points if you're a derivative culture, plus if you create new culture that spreads through the world (like hollywood, for better or worse).
Did you make historical contributions? Sumerians
Were you uniquely interesting? Vikings
History
Were you important? This is linked with great power, only you don't have to be so great. Fit in Austria, Korea, Hebrew, and so on.
Were you important throughout history, and bonus points if you survived. Getting tired of examples

So Korea never dominated in the world or in the region, it was not a great power but it was historically important. The culture is distinct, but not amazingly unique. They survived a long time, so bonus points. So it's a 2nd or 3rd tier civilization.
With these criteria, I might rank it above Austria-Hungary. I would rank the Khmer higher, because they were a regional power.

that would mean Vietnam is a likely candidate. :D

we've survived a long time, we were *sort of* a regional power (or at least we could share the crap out of anybody that tried to invade us)... and we gave the world awesome food...

but i can also see why Korea was included. at least its better than the HRE, wouldn't you agree, Korea-bashers?
 
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