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Why is Korea, of all civs, constantly portrayed as super science civ in civ series?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Krajzen, Feb 17, 2018.

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  1. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    I wouldn't say that alone quite qualifies Korea for GG bonuses. Certainly compared to other Civs in the game who don't have any, and yet consistently have had amazing military leadership. That'd just add a second topic to this thread ;)
     
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  2. Crezth

    Crezth 話說天下大勢分久必合合久必分

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    Koreans invented a printing press in the 16th century and did nothing else for basically all of history, but they're a science civ. Supposedly.
     
  3. ChocolateShake

    ChocolateShake Prince

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    It's probably time for them to take a fresh look at each civ's design to see if they should tweak them. As it is they sometimes end up "Flanderizing" the civs (exaggerating a single trait/action to the point where it consumes the entire character) to keep them consistent between iterations.

    I don't know much about Korean history, they do seem like they were innovative but clearly not to the extent that the series has represented them. That's kind of an issue with all early science bonuses though, having a late game bonus for the U.S. for example wouldn't really have as much of an impact. I guess this is the problem with unique flavors for each civ. This is an interesting discussion though :)
     
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  4. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    Yeah, a fresh look for Civ VII would be nice.

    Science bonuses have always been problematic for 4X games and not just for Civ.
     
  5. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    Wrong. Korea invented that in the 13th century, centuries before Gutenberg. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movable_type

    If you paid any attention to this thread you would also know about Korean innovation with gunpowder weapons, hwachas, turtle ships, and astronomy, especially during Seondeok and Sejong's time. Science bonuses for Korea while led by either are appropriate.

    Also worth noting is that Hangul is interestingly discussed by Jared Diamond in Guns, Germs and Steel, who noted the Hangul alphabet's uniqueness and innovation in the context of idea diffusion.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
  6. Crezth

    Crezth 話說天下大勢分久必合合久必分

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    Jared Diamond is a hack-fraud who has none of the knowledge or background necessary to analyze world history. He's a snake oil salesman who sells to people too dim to realize that human civilization isn't a 3-dof system of equations.

    As for the printing press, it was an impractical and mostly-useless boondoggle until Sejong's alphabet. That was 15th century in fairness but definitely not 13th century.

    Most of Korea's cultural, religious, and legalistic innovations came from China. Astronomy and gunpowder also came from China. Korea can lay claim to none of them.

    But I'll give you their cute engineering weapons like the turtle ships and the rocket launchers. However they were again mostly useless boondoggles that could impress foreign dignitaries and accomplish not much else, and indicate a talent for engineering, not science. Even when Korea's independence was threatened by Hideyoshi, at the end of the 16th century, they still required Ming intervention to save them. In other words they could not eve guarantee their own independence as the Chinese were responsible for it.

    The Korean meme that they're a science civ is amusing, but in the context of the game makes no sense at all. They are not movers or shakers and they're barely worth noting in the book of world history. Most of Korea that is relevant is that which was built by Park Chung Hee, and you notice he's not a leader in the game and all of Korea's special abilities come from its short-lived "golden age" which was actually piggybacked off of the Ming's success.

    Tl;dr Korea shouldn't even be in the game, much less be a science civ. But since people are Koreaboos and love them so much, you may as well have them, but make them a productivity and engineering civ, not this dumb science nonsense.
     
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  7. ChocolateShake

    ChocolateShake Prince

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    That's just a bunch of ad-hominems strung together. I don't know much about Jared Diamond, and I haven't read his books (yet), but I see he's a professor of geography at UCLA, and he's received numerous awards including a Pulitzer prize. Hardly a hack-fraud.

    Most of the world's inventions and scientific advances came from shared discoveries and people building on discoveries from other nations and people. China has certainly led the way quite a few times, probably due to a variety of factors. I'm sure there are plenty of interesting Korean innovations, even if they weren't typically the first or the best.

    Well, many nations were at risk of losing their independence (or lost it) at one time or another, and many indeed lost it during the colonial age. Not sure why you're bringing it up.

    It seems to me Korea has a very rich history. Having large science bonuses might not be very historically accurate, but they certainly appear to be innovative and it looks like they accomplished quite a lot despite their size. They may not have impacted the world the way other civs have, but they're certainly worthy of recognition.
     
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  8. Scaramanga

    Scaramanga Brickhead

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    Well everything's a boondoggle without the production and policies to leverage it, so solitary campuses that can't benefit from other districts makes sense.
     
  9. Olleus

    Olleus Deity

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    I think this thread has it backwards.

    Korea will be in the game because its a fan favourite and will sell well. Like all civs, it needs a bonus. What other bonus would you give them? Cultural over Science, maybe. But there's not very much else you could tie to them that chimes with popular culture.
     
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  10. Crezth

    Crezth 話說天下大勢分久必合合久必分

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    :lol: point

    Engineering/productivity bonuses. Maybe some K-Pop stuff in the late game. It's certainly far, far more relevant than the extremely minimal philosophy and science they actually conducted.
     
  11. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    Wrong and offensive in almost every aspect. What a fun post to counter!

    As others have pointed out, Jared Diamond is an academic of high repute, and Guns, Germs and Steel is a rather famous and comprehensive work of his which won a Pulitzer Prize in 1998, and the Aventis Prize for Best Science Book. The bile-filled ad hominems you utilize aren't backed by anything other than your conclusory allegations and thus have little credit. If any.

    Korea's metal movable type came from the 13th century (1230s) and preceded Gutenberg's movable metal type by hundreds of years. The oldest complete book printed with Korea's metal type dates to 1377. http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/world/world-record.html

    Korea can easily lay claim to innovation. For example, gunpowder may have originated in China, but the hwacha was a uniquely Korean innovation that resulted from weaponizing gunpowder. Similarly, Chinese charts may have influenced Korea, but Silla astronomers made their own astronomical observations and cultivated a unique relationship from within the Silla government. As earlier pointed out, all science is borne on the backs of earlier discoveries. Are modern discoveries in biotech all copied from Darwin? Or all modern astronomical discoveries copied from China or Babylon?

    The hwacha and turtle ship literally saved Korea in the 16th century when the samurai invaded, and you have cited zero evidence they were primarily to show off for foreign dignitaries. The hwacha allowed the leader of Korea's guerilla resistance, Gwon Ryul, to beat a horde of 30,000 samurai (against 2,300 Koreans) despite being holed up in a fortress. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Haengju

    Similarly, the turtle ship was instrumental in ramming and breaking apart Japanese ships. Of course, Admiral Yi Sunshin, Korea's national hero, was a brilliant commander and that helped too. But the turtle ships' spiked hull repelled Japanese boarders, which was important given the turtle ship's primary function as a ramming ship, and also given that the Japanese navy relied heavily on melee combat to win. See Stephen Turnbull's Fighting Ships of the Far East (2): Japan and Korea AD 612-1639.

    The Koreans won almost all their naval battles in the Imjin Wars without Ming assistance, and in no battle was Ming assistance instrumental in saving the Koreans. This entire list of naval battles shows only two where Ming China appeared. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lis...ing_the_Japanese_invasions_of_Korea_(1592–98) And in fact, in the Battle of Jang Island, the Koreans rescued captured Ming sailors. So the reverse of what you claim is true--Korea saved the Ming Chinese in the Imjin Wars; let us not forget that Hideyoshi invaded Korea only because the Koreans refused to allow Hideyoshi passage through Korea to attack China.
    https://books.google.ch/books?id=RMBdoimD2kIC&pg=PA187&lpg=PA187&dq=hideyoshi+ambassadors+to+korea&source=bl&ots=VeVI427XwE&sig=_JfxI1p1Imu26qYRYEfi9CIWe_c&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjO74C0ybfZAhUHbxQKHVUWC7YQ6AEwAXoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=hideyoshi ambassadors to korea&f=false

    As for engineering vs science, when I told comes to gunpowder, both are involved. But given that Sejong and Seondeok lead Korea in Civ V and VI, science bonuses are more appropriate.

    Korea is definitely worth noting in world history, but not just because World War III might break out in that theater, but rather because their rise to modern cultural, commercial and scientific success is truly phoenix-like (K-pop/Hallyu Wave from K-dramas, 11th or 12th in the top GDPs, R and D investment, patent applications, digital and biotech advancements).

    Earlier in history, Korea conquered large parts of what's now China (see their empire geography in 476 AD). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goguryeo The Koreans also defied Chinese invasion and won. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goguryeo–Sui_War And of course, Admiral Yi Sunshin crushed the Japanese in the Imjin Wars and was later worshipped by Japanese Admiral Togo for his prowess. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_Sun-sin

    Beyond that, you have the Three Kingdoms period and the Choson Dynasty, with leaders like Gwanggaeto and Sejong with important victories of their own.

    I don't know what Golden Age you are referring to, but the Silla Golden Age had nothing to do with the Ming, nor were Sejong's innovations in everything from agriculture to military tech due to the Ming Chinese.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
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  12. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    I can see that opinion (I'm pretty indifferent). But why so angry about it?
     
  13. Crezth

    Crezth 話說天下大勢分久必合合久必分

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    Jared Diamond is an academic of high repute who is not a historian. He's a biologist who thinks he's solved human civilization and is pretending to be a historian. The very fact you cite him as a legitimate source in a historical debate demonstrates you don't know anything at all about the study of history.

    So the rest of your post is nonsense but easily capitulated to sheer logic and reason. I am being "offensive" just for being honest. That's cute.

    The hwacha did not "allow the Koreans to win at haengju." This is a ridiculously reductive analysis of military history. Battles are won at challenging odds all the time with our without technology and the rockets at haengju were not even effective in the actual battle. Disease and exhaustion forced the samurai at bay. The Greeks did not need hwacha to defeat the Persians, did they? Checkmate.

    Furthermore, the Korean innovations on Chinese inventions had no later developments and were, in and of themselves, overdesigned pieces of garbage that were not suitable for mass adoption. A clever innovation, an engineering feat? Sure, why not. Da Vinci was a great engineer despite building nothing. But a great technological innovation? Now you're reaching. In the time Koreans made two or three discoveries, real scientific and philosophical powers like China and the Ottoman Turks were making hundreds upon thousands of new discoveries. To call Korea a great innovator is to call a child in art school a great artist.

    Korea is nowadays relevant as you say. I'd give Korea modern leaders before I gave them ancient leaders just to acknowledge the Kingdom of Joseon may as well not have existed. But, we are talking about their legacy from medieval times, a legacy as scientists and philosophers which is eminently unsuited to the Korean civilization.

    Sejong's "innovations" are matched in their complexity by those of Oda Nobunaga. Nobody calls Oda Nobunaga a scientific leader.

    Koreaboos like you just want to give a pleasurable motion of the lips and tongue to Korea. I understand that, but don't expect people to buy into your nonsense. And Jared Diamond is a hack and a fraud and racist beyond belief. So, thank you for demonstrating that you think a racist hack-fraud who writes nonsense biological tracts about how humans are inevitably guided by circumstance down incontrovertible pathways is "legitimate history." It's anti-history.

    Moderator Action: Please do not troll. leif
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
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  14. Crezth

    Crezth 話說天下大勢分久必合合久必分

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    Modern day Korean nationalists love to rewrite history and pretend the past involved a Korea that was in any way significant. It wasn't ever significant except in the imaginations of addled Korean nationalists. Korea might as well be a city-state for all the influence they had on history. Infact, including Korea as a city state makes so much sense in terms of Korea's actual contributions to history that I find it annoying when Korean nationalists screaming HWAN! HWAN! demand it be included as a civilization.

    It's about as stupid as including Georgia or Mapuche, to be fair.

    He's a scientist of geography who writes books about history. If Steven Hawking wrote lengthy diatribes about how physics can tell us all about political science, I'd call him a hack-fraud, too. Just because someone has a medal doesn't mean they are an expert authority on EVERY subject.

    Because if we included every miniscule civilization that was ever conquered and achieved nothing, like Korea, we'd be at it all century.

    What exactly have the Koreans accomplished in their history? They're not particularly known for great works of history, art, poetry, literature, philosophy. During Sejong's reign he micromanaged a few bureaucratic embellishments but nothing that survived him. It's honestly such an underdeveloped civilization they don't even know their own history all that well. This leads Korean nationalists to come up with insane theories. Some distillation of these theories represents Koreabooism as it is today.
     
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  15. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    Guns, Germs and Steel is innately historical and ergo Diamond is a historian, however influenced he may be by views of biology (but this is not exceptional). If you want to simply slur his name, you would do better to have evidence against his claims. You cite none. Merely ad hominems.

    You cite no evidence that the hwacha were ineffective at Haengju (once again, you make conclusory statements not backed by a shred of evidence and citing not a single source). The Koreans had 40 hwacha at Haengju and relied almost entirely on ranged artillery to stop the samurai climbing the fort walls.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Haengju Without the hwacha, of course the outnumbered Korean guerillas would have lost. Koreans were terrible in melee combat against trained katana-wielding samurai (many of them veterans of the Japanese unification wars). So your vague and generalistic statement about battles is both unhelpful and improperly applied.

    And far from being "an overdesigned piece of garbage not suited for mass production", hundreds of hwacha were deployed in Korea both before (1451) and during the Imjin Wars (1592, 1598) where they appeared on panokson and were used by guerillas to defeat samurai. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwacha

    As I pointed out, Korea was relevant long before the modern era--I specifically named the Goguryeo and the Choson dynasty under Sejong. Oda Nobunaga did not make the Japanese language, did not host scholars and engineers who made agricultural, astronomical, mathematical and military innovations. Oda adopted firearms and employed unique tactics. Hence Sejong is given science bonuses and Oda military ones in Civ V.

    So far the only person who hasn't "bought into my nonsense" is you. Far from saying history is determined by "incontrovertible pathways" (your vague grandiloquent phrase), Jared Diamond points out how geography makes a difference in development, and raises numerous salient points. Again, I have yet to see you actually use evidence to combat anything he says, especially regarding the Hangul alphabet, which was why I raised his book in the first place.

    He dislikes Korea, obviously. His insults to me in his recent post are evidence enough, even if his angry attacks on Jared Diamond don't make that clear enough.
     
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  16. the343danny

    the343danny Emperor

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    All countries that have survived the centuries have had decisive victories against invaders. In general though, I think the consensus is that Korean leadership was quite poor, resulting in situations like the Imjin war where smaller numbers of Japanese completely dominated on land. I don't think a great general bonus is warranted.
     
  17. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    But I could see a big Loyalty bonus of some sort, considering that was the new mechanic in the expansion anyhow.
     
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  18. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    While there are plenty of hyper nationalist nutcases in the Koreas and abroad with delusions of grandeur, I would say that the posters that are Korean on this website are fairly levelheaded and polite. So, there’s no need to be so scathing or bombastic.

    I think Korea has a place in the Civilization series as they do have an interesting culture that has endured for about 2,000 years. I don’t agree with this super, super scientific powerhouse portrayal, to be sure, but more a cultural, diplomatic one. Hopefully in Civ VII, they’ll change that.

    Nothing wrong with Georgia and Mapuche, either. I find them a breath of fresh air. :)

    The Imjin Wars were a debacle for all three countries involved. It bankrupted Ming China, Korea and Japan. Ming China was already declining and this hastened the process leading to them being conquered by the Manchu less than ninety years later. Korea was devastated and further devastated by a Manchu invasion in 1636. Japan, like Korea, embarked on a voyage of isolationism which was disastrous.

    In general, Joseon Dynasty Korea suffered from bad government and leadership with a few notable exceptions such as Sejong.
     
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  19. ChocolateShake

    ChocolateShake Prince

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    Having a different perspective on history can be refreshing, and it can help historians consider new angles that they might not have thought of before. If he's claiming to be the ultimate authority on history that's one thing, but I don't think he's doing that? It seems to me that his "Guns, Germs and Steel" book received compliments as well as well as being subject to criticism from historians. I wouldn't consider him an expert but I'm sure the book is interesting and probably contains at least a few valid observations. There will be flaws I'm sure, but it's still better to have a new perspective I think.

    If we remove civs that didn't manage to conquer other civs, and didn't have a major impact on a worldwide scale, we'd be stuck with a very limited roster. There are some theories that say humanity might've been better off had they stuck to their pre-agricultural societies. I don't fully agree with that, but it's certainly a valid viewpoint and I'm glad it's presented and discussed. Similarly, I like to learn things from other civs that might get dismissed otherwise because they didn't conquer enough or invent enough stuff. Take Poundmaker's story for example. He'd never be included in a civ game if we followed those rules, even though his sacrifices in the name of peace are certainly worthy of receiving the same attention that other leaders get.

    Nationalism is certainly something that should be countered using history and logic. But we shouldn't consider Korea unworthy of being in a civ game just because some Koreans have some wild "theories". I'm sure if I studied Korean history I'd learn a lot of interesting things. I was reading about Admiral Yi Sun-sin and his naval battles with the Japanese, and even a brief overview shows that there's a rich story there. @Thormodr has mentioned about Korea being the "shrimp between two whales", and that looks like it'll be very interesting to learn about too :D I'd actually really like to see an interpretation of Korea in civ that takes that into account.
     
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  20. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    I think as long as Korea is led by Sejong or Seondeok science bonuses seem fine. And as I pointed out in this thread, it would be historically accurate for them to have science bonuses.

    Wouldn't mind a cultural/religious/commercial/defensive take though, and my original idea for a Seondeok-led Korea in the Design-a-Civ forum had culture bonuses for Seondeok and her hwarang unique unit.

    Re: the Imjin Wars, they did devastate Korea but did nevertheless demonstrate Korea was able to go toe-to-toe with Japan military, on sea if not by land. And Haengju demonstrates Korean military tech (40 hwachas being fired down at samurai trying to scale a wall) came in really handy when Korean melee fighters were notably inferior to samurai. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Haengju

    Korea has always had to be on the defensive due to Chinese/Mongolian/Japanese neighbors, and while not always successful, they had numerous successes against northern barbarians, Japanese wokou pirates, and fended off the Sui Dynasty invasion as wel l. (For which purpose a wall the Koreans had constructed on the border came in handy). So I expect a future Korea design in Civ to have some defensive bonuses beyond hwacha and turtle ships. There's much historicity for that even if most of Korea's ancient great generals were either Goguryeo or Silla.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
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