Why is Mongolia in and not Korea

[awesome]

so, um, did the ottomans ever conquer the byzantine empire, considering a lot of their politicians, engineers and elite soldiers weren't turkish?
and the europeans/americans/etc didn't conquer the new world because there were several battles with the natives even after the countries claimed the land they happened on, and even rebellions within the last half century?

 

[lolno]

This gem here:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/The_British_Empire.png

The Mongols on the other hand are limited to Southern Siberia, rightfully so- no laughable Antarctic Empire claims.

awesome

so, um, did the ottomans ever conquer the byzantine empire, considering a lot of their politicians, engineers and elite soldiers weren't turkish?
and the europeans/americans/etc didn't conquer the new world because there were several battles with the natives even after the countries claimed the land they happened on, and even rebellions within the last half century?

There's a huge difference between having a contingent of foreigners working for you militarily, than having a whole other foreign power attacking you simultaneously. It's another thing to have two separate polities, erroneously thought of as a united country, attacking each other and contributing directly to the other's downfall. Give credit where credit is due. And I would hardly say Americans "conquered" the New World, they just moved in while the Natives withered and died to their diseases. The Spanish conquered the Aztecs, Incas, sure, but to say "Europeans conquered the New World" is a bit simplistic.

 

[Thormodr]

I like to be to the point- when you get huffy Europeans boasting about how wonderful their cities are, talking vacuously about how they "dwarf" China's cities in population (no, none of the three did at the time- Hangzhou was the largest by far), well it's amusing the first 100,000,000,000,000,000 times. After that, you get bored of political correctness and protecting their egos, and that's when we can have a discussion beyond regurgitating epithets and sound bites.

I have no problems in admitting that China was more advanced in many ways than Europe was at the time.

In fact, it was the Mongols that allowed many Chinese inventions to be brought over to the West such as gunpowder and the seed drill for starters. These inventions helped fuel the renaissance. Credit is dually given.

It is rather amusing that you'd bring up political correctness vis a vis China though. Now there's a country that censors and desanitizes everything to an extreme.

Just look at how China throws hissy fits when the Dalai Lama comes to visit Canada.

No one can talk about Tibet or Taiwan because it might offend China!

 

[lolno]

They will also throw you in jail if you post anti-minority(meaning the people, not the Dalai Lama) comments on the internet, afaik. How's that for political correctness?

 

[Thormodr]

No, he conquered Punjab, which if you recall is part of India. So I guess he "conquered India"

It'd be like saying the Mongols "conquered Europe" when in reality it was only Eastern Europe. The Mongols never "conquered China", both because 1) they relied on others to do it and 2) the definition of China is vague. Sorry you can't have your Altaric Golea Empire headline history.

Ok. Now I know you are not being serious so I won't bother discussing the topic with you anymore. If you feel like debating intelligently and put aside these snide insults then we can talk again.

 

[lolno]

Another point is it's not really China, because we know it was indeed part of the Great Golea Empire since 8,500 BC

But the basic point is this:

I would accept it if you said-

The Mongols unified China
The Mongols annihilated Western Xia
The Mongols conquered Jurchen Jin along with Song China
The Mongols conquered Southern Song (using the troops from North China the Song essentially provided for them, by helping them destroy Jin)

"Mongols conquered China" butchers history, in a way only Afrocentrists, Nordicists and Altaric Golean Imperials can butcher history.

 

[Thormodr]

It's probably best this way as you keep using derogatory names.

Are you sure you want to add lolno to your ignore list?
Y/N

*Clicks Y*

 

[lolno]

You can't ignore Great Golea Altaric Empire

 

[civ_king]

They will also throw you in jail if you post anti-minority(meaning the people, not the Dalai Lama) comments on the internet, afaik. How's that for political correctness?

Even Uyghur?

You can't ignore Great Golea Altaric Empire

Short answer: *facepalm*
Long answer: "That's what I said to your Mom last night"

Serious answer: Golea Empire is what exactly?

 

[usi]

Totally off topic, but I suddenly remembered somebody said, "China is great, though there is nothing great in PRC."

 

[Azale]

The Sioux were in Civ2, with their capital at Little Bighorn and Wounded Knee not far down the list. All other civ choices in civ games are minor compared to that traveshamockery.

You'll get Korea in the expansion.

 

[Wuzetian]

Can you give me the url? I'm curious about that thread now, sounds like funny to read.
I hope we don't get locked but honestly, I'm tempted more and more to jump into the fray and start cracking jokes myself (or at least attempt to with my bad sense of humor)

Sure thing, check it out.
Why am I not surprised to find that it was started by tifa9292 too.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=358330&page=2

 

[Wuzetian]

We had upper classman who told us "horror" tale of their final the year before. It's not until later that I learned one of the final problem for a 2nd year college course and took an entire blackboard to solve, was Eistein's thesis paper.... I was encouraged to do a research paper in one of the upper division class. I picked a topic out of interest but as I dove into it, it was getting more and more complicated and my math simply cannot handle the necessary modeling need. My professor encouraged me to work on it. I turned it in, "unfinished" in a sense that my modeling did not quite work. I got one of the few A in the class and it's not until after I turned it in, my professor told me I picked something nobody solved before and if I did solve it, I might have a chance at Nobel prize.

Then again, you've amazed me. You are truly incredible man.

I would attribute it to Mongol if Mongol was the one who "controlled" the "projects". However, I believe Chinese seem to treat Yuan dynasty as "Chinese" while keeping Mongols separately, it's an interesting dichotomy.

I wonder if you have noticed my quotation, the "cultrue achievements" it mentioned were dramas and ink paintings.

I certainly understand your point and I would agree with you if such "projects" are something like building a palace, a monument or even compiling an encyclopedia such as "Yong Le Da Dian"(you've probably heard of that one).

But as to dramas and ink paintings, I don't think so.
Dramas are more of personal creations IMO, and especially the content of which was "a depiction of corruption and social illness under Mongolian rules". I think it can hardly be called a "Mongolian controlled project", can it?
And those ink paintings which I quoted are almost no difference from any in Song or Ming Dynasty AFAIK. That is exactly why I raised that question of "Who should it be attributed to".

I once asked you whether Yuan Dynasty should be considered a Chinese Dynasty or not if you'd remembered. I'm trying to use some "independent thinking" on this period of history, because I seriously doubted what I was taught in history classes.

 

[Wuzetian]

Saying that China is composed of a mess of 56 nation states is very disingenuous. Especially when China has one of the strongest central governments of any sizable country in the world.

I believe the term "enthic groups" is more suitable than "nation states".
Just like there are Spanish,Italian, Mexican and so on in America.

 

[Wuzetian]

The Middle East and Eastern Europe dropped like a cheap prostitute, and the West of Europe would have fared no better- had there been anything worth pillaging there in the first place.

I understand a lot of your ideas and agree with quite some of them, but please avoid using words like these. They won't help strengthen your arguement.
I assume it's part of the reason that this thread lies in world history subforum now.

 

[Wuzetian]

I also remember a story of the black bear in Japan that mauled someone and the Japanese press saying that it must have been a Russian bear that swam over to Japan because Japanese bears would never do that.

That is true genius.
God job free press.

 

[eoc]

lolno, I admire your knowledge and your English.
But someone won't try to understand you or try to listen what you have said at all. They just understand what they can, and accept what they will. And they will be so urgent to mark those who has different views with "Nationalist".
I don't blame them, because it is their philosophic thinking.
The divergence between Chinese and Westerners mainly lies on the method of classifying ethnic, nation, country, race.
I found that, Westerners don't really know "Chinese" means. And they split Chinese into pieces by their classified method. They think, Han is the only real original Chinese, which explained most of Euro countries composed of single nation(or ethnic). While they don't know Han also keep turning into other nations.
Due to my poor English, I don't try to post any explaintions, just focus on the Topic.

 

[eoc]

Totally off topic, but I suddenly remembered somebody said, "China is great, though there is nothing great in PRC."

Don't you think it is an obvious lie?
Off-topic again, I'm sorry.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Moderator Action: Not sure why this is here (fr the Civ forums?), and I don't want to read thru the whole thread...

After this post, the usual moderation standards for Colosseum will be applied. And discussion will focus on history. And no more present-day political topics - pls start one in Off-topic, if you want to continue discussing it from that angle.

Be warned...
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[superisis]

No, he conquered Punjab, which if you recall is part of India. So I guess he "conquered India"

It'd be like saying the Mongols "conquered Europe" when in reality it was only Eastern Europe. The Mongols never "conquered China", both because 1) they relied on others to do it and 2) the definition of China is vague. Sorry you can't have your Altaric Golea Empire headline history.

Wait are you saying the Mongols didn't conquer China? Cause when I google "mongol empire" I get these four pictures as the first links. You saying they are wrong? Could you provide your own map of what areas of the world the Mongols ruled?

http://www.artsmia.org/art-of-asia/history/images/maps/mongol-empire-large.gif
http://jambudveep.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/mongol_empire_history.jpg
http://chinggiskhanfound.com/images/Mongol Empire Map.jpg
http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/imperialism/maps/mongol.gif

Oh and historically the Mongols had a much greater impact on the world than Korea. One of the things they did was bring over asian art to the middle east, drastically changing the way paintings of people and landscape in the Muslim world. Though I guess we're beyond the original discussion.