Why is Mongolia in and not Korea

[usi]

Don't you think it is an obvious lie?
Off-topic again, I'm sorry.

Well, I guess responses to the quote ("China is great, though there is nothing great in PRC") reveal people's actual views of China.

From there, one can infer that China is great enough to grow no matter who governs it (note that it says, "China is," not "China was").
On the other hand, some people with certain expectations might get angry or feel sarcastic.

---

Overall, I have been favorable toward Thormodr, not necessarily because I agree, but because s/he provided some sources, while most others never did.

And I think those people who don't provide sources are repeating the same history:
A: "Ii is this" (no source)
B: "No, it is that" (no source)
C: "Actually I agree with A" (no source)
D: "Someone who doesn't understand B is biased" (no source)

 

[Dachs]

No, he conquered Punjab, which if you recall is part of India. So I guess he "conquered India"

By the contemporary definition of India as "Indus Valley janx", yes, he "conquered India". Uh, what's the relevance to the Yuan?

 

[Roxlimn]

The estimated population of Constantinople at its peak in the 13th (or thereabouts) century is from 400000 to 500000 people. The estimated population of Zhongdu at about that time is one million people. Is there an alternative meaning to "dwarfed" that I'm not aware of? Was Venice or Cordoba considerably larger than Constantinople at this time?

 

[ds61514]

Wait are you saying the Mongols didn't conquer China? Cause when I google "mongol empire" I get these four pictures as the first links. You saying they are wrong? Could you provide your own map of what areas of the world the Mongols ruled?

Saying the "Mongols conquered China" can give the impression to many that the "Mongol nation-state" conquered the "Chinese nation-state," with a small number of uber horseman running wild over millions Central Plains inhabitants. That's a bit anachronistic. As lolno stated, the actual progression was:

1) Mongols conquered the (Tangut) Xi-Xia
2) Mongols conquered (Jurchen) Jin, with help from Xi-Xia
3) Mongols conquered Southern Song, with help from former conquests, Jin and Southern Song troops.

The statement "Manchu conquest of China" makes even less sense, since it wasn't even them that killed the last Ming emperor.

 

[Dachs]

Uh, since when does one have to kill the last Ming emperor to have conquered China? Are we defining geopolitics and history in terms of a Regicide game of Civ?

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Saying the "Mongols conquered China" can give the impression to many that the "Mongol nation-state" conquered the "Chinese nation-state," with a small number of uber horseman running wild over millions Central Plains inhabitants. That's a bit anachronistic. As lolno stated, the actual progression was:

1) Mongols conquered the (Tangut) Xi-Xia
2) Mongols conquered (Jurchen) Jin, with help from Xi-Xia
3) Mongols conquered Southern Song, with help from former conquests, Jin and Southern Song troops.

The statement "Manchu conquest of China" makes even less sense, since it wasn't even them that killed the last Ming emperor.

The Mongols conquered China. And beyond. Enough said.

The genius of the Mongol war machine was in its ability to terrorize its conquered and 'allied' components into sending whatever forces and specialists they had, to 'assist' the Mongols, and the Mongol commanders' willingness to adopt whatever warfare methods to achieve their strategic goal.

The fact that the Mongols mainly used North Chinese infantry and naval marines (as well as Arab siege engineers and probably others) to conquer the Southern Song made it no less of a fact that they did conquer the Southern Song.

The Southern Song Chinese didn't go down easy. The Mongols took an entire generation to reduce the Southern Song - including 10 years besieging Xiangyang, as they advanced downwards fr Sichuan towards the coast. But they still lost, for many reasons.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Oh, and the Mongols didn't conquer the Jurchens with 'help' from Xi-Xia. The campaigns against the Khwarzm (sp?) Turks and the Jurchens were in full swing, when the Tanguts (Xi-Xia) broke away from their nominal alliance with the Mongols. In reprisal, Genghis Khan himself led a large Mongol army to destroy the Tangut state and people, as an example. Destroy, as in totally massacring the Tangut people, in all their cities and villages. Reason why the Tanguts more or less vanished from history at this point.

Genghis Khan himself died in the extinguish Xi-Xia campaign, but his commanders finished off the job.

As I vaguely recall anyways...

 

[ds61514]

Uh, since when does one have to kill the last Ming emperor to have conquered China? Are we defining geopolitics and history in terms of a Regicide game of Civ?

Given the fact that there were three competing power centres at the time of the last Ming Emperor's death (Qing, Ming Loyalists and Li Zicheng's Shun dynasty, whose actions caused the last Ming Emperor to hang himself), and political instability lasted until the Revolt of the Three Feudatories, it is at least arguable that the Qing didn't conquer, but instead re-united, China.

The fact that the Mongols mainly used North Chinese infantry and naval marines (as well as Arab siege engineers and probably others) to conquer the Southern Song made it no less of a fact that they did conquer the Southern Song.

The Southern Song Chinese didn't go down easy. The Mongols took an entire generation to reduce the Southern Song - including 10 years besieging Xiangyang, as they advanced downwards fr Sichuan towards the coast. But they still lost, for many reasons.

Oh I'm not disputing this. I just wanted to clear up the impression that the Mongols were unstoppable before Ain Jalut .

Oh, and the Mongols didn't conquer the Jurchens with 'help' from Xi-Xia. The campaigns against the Khwarzm (sp?) Turks and the Jurchens were in full swing, when the Tanguts (Xi-Xia) broke away from their nominal alliance with the Mongols. In reprisal, Genghis Khan himself led a large Mongol army to destroy the Tangut state and people, as an example. Destroy, as in totally massacring the Tangut people, in all their cities and villages. Reason why the Tanguts more or less vanished from history at this point.

I stand corrected. My initial understanding was that Genghis' initial attacks during the early 1200s caused Xi-Xia to submit to Genghis. It is not disputed that Xi-Xia started attacked Jin around 1211, but maybe that was because Xi-Xia wanted to curry favor with Genghis.. Bad move for them

 

[Dachs]

Given the fact that there were three competing power centres at the time of the last Ming Emperor's death (Qing, Ming Loyalists and Li Zicheng's Shun dynasty, whose actions caused the last Ming Emperor to hang himself), and political instability lasted until the Revolt of the Three Feudatories, it is at least arguable that the Qing didn't conquer, but instead re-united, China.

Ah, that old chestnut. Funny, I just read Wakeman a month ago. I don't see why they're mutually exclusive.

 

[teluya]

I find it odd that no one has addressed the tifa9292's original argument, that BoA, Rain, and Ban Ki Moon have had a greater influence on the development of the world than Genghis Khan and the Mongols.
______________________________________

BoA: Virtually everyone has heard of BoA. Virtually everyone knows BoA stands for Beat of Angel. I am sure almost all Americans have heard of her, because of her tremendous flop "I'll Eat You Up". Many Americans were subject to this atrocious Korean cultural invasion, and had to listen to it on their radios before they universally rejected BoA. Just the chorus alone should be enough to convince anyone of Korea's greatness, which probably grossed BoA about $14 in sales in the USA:

I'll eat you up, Your love, your love
I'll eat you up, Your love, your love
I'll eat you up
So yum yum
Can't get enough
I think I'm in love

(see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLnr2u_nj10 if you have a strong stomach; I memorized the dance~!~!).

RAIN: everyone knows Rain, famous for such brilliant wordplay hits like "It's Raining". Also, I know many of us have spent countless hours practicing his dance moves available in the many tutorials on youtube. At least, all patent lawyers know of him because he is busy trademarking the word for "Rain" in every language out there. He is also well known in the USA because he was robbed of the Academy Award for his brilliant portrayal of Taejo Togokahn in the Speed Racer movie. Apparently, Korea is such an influential country in this world that their biggest cultural icon can only get a gig out of the country by playing a Japanese person?

Ban Ki Moon: ?

Genghis Khan: never heard of him.

To me, it sounds like Korea should be an original civilization in the game, after other great historical civilizations (such as Singapore and Pitcairn Island) have been included.

 

[tifa9292]

I find it odd that no one has addressed the tifa9292's original argument, that BoA, Rain, and Ban Ki Moon have had a greater influence on the development of the world than Genghis Khan and the Mongols.
______________________________________

BoA: Virtually everyone has heard of BoA. Virtually everyone knows BoA stands for Beat of Angel. I am sure almost all Americans have heard of her, because of her tremendous flop "I'll Eat You Up". Many Americans were subject to this atrocious Korean cultural invasion, and had to listen to it on their radios before they universally rejected BoA. Just the chorus alone should be enough to convince anyone of Korea's greatness, which probably grossed BoA about $14 in sales in the USA:

I'll eat you up, Your love, your love
I'll eat you up, Your love, your love
I'll eat you up
So yum yum
Can't get enough
I think I'm in love

(see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLnr2u_nj10 if you have a strong stomach; I memorized the dance~!~!).

RAIN: everyone knows Rain, famous for such brilliant wordplay hits like "It's Raining". Also, I know many of us have spent countless hours practicing his dance moves available in the many tutorials on youtube. At least, all patent lawyers know of him because he is busy trademarking the word for "Rain" in every language out there. He is also well known in the USA because he was robbed of the Academy Award for his brilliant portrayal of Taejo Togokahn in the Speed Racer movie. Apparently, Korea is such an influential country in this world that their biggest cultural icon can only get a gig out of the country by playing a Japanese person?

Ban Ki Moon: ?

Genghis Khan: never heard of him.

To me, it sounds like Korea should be an original civilization in the game, after other great historical civilizations (such as Singapore and Pitcairn Island) have been included.

singapore's not that great

 

[teluya]

Well, based on certain objective standards it looks pretty good. For instance:

Singapore median income in 2008 $52,000

South Korea median income in 2008 $26,000

North Korea median income in 2008 $1,700.

Also, from a personal point of view in favor of Singapore, not forcing me to listen to BoA = priceless~!

 

[Roxlimn]

I actually don't know BoA or Rain. I don't watch Korean dramas, and kimchi doesn't enjoy mass worldwide demand.

No offense, OP, but I think you're really overestimating Korea's impact on the modern world. I mean, my mp3 player of choice is Creative, and I'm pretty sure that's a Singaporean company.

 

[teluya]

I agree with Roxlimn. not everyone is a Rainboy or a BoAboy.

 

[lolno]

eoc

lolno, I admire your knowledge and your English.
But someone won't try to understand you or try to listen what you have said at all. They just understand what they can, and accept what they will. And they will be so urgent to mark those who has different views with "Nationalist".
I don't blame them, because it is their philosophic thinking.
The divergence between Chinese and Westerners mainly lies on the method of classifying ethnic, nation, country, race.
I found that, Westerners don't really know "Chinese" means. And they split Chinese into pieces by their classified method. They think, Han is the only real original Chinese, which explained most of Euro countries composed of single nation(or ethnic). While they don't know Han also keep turning into other nations.
Due to my poor English, I don't try to post any explaintions, just focus on the Topic.

True. I can accept and debate with people who are willing to, but many are not- some posters are simply trying to push an agenda.

superisis

Wait are you saying the Mongols didn't conquer China? Cause when I google "mongol empire" I get these four pictures as the first links. You saying they are wrong? Could you provide your own map of what areas of the world the Mongols ruled?

I don't know, Victoria held sway over a huge swathe of the globe, I suppose Germany conquered India? There was no one "Mongol conquest" of any "China" back then, China was split into Dali, Xixia, Jin and Nansong. Jin was attacked simultaneously by the Mongols and the Song, and the Mongols used Western Xia to launch their invasions into North China. Credit should be given where credit is due: the Song and Mongols toppled Jin. To say otherwise would be like saying "America won World War 2" or something equally asinine.

Dachs

By the contemporary definition of India as "Indus Valley janx", yes, he "conquered India". Uh, what's the relevance to the Yuan?

Alexander did not conquer India. He conquered Punjab, there is a huge difference. The first statement is exaggeration, to get a "wow" effect.

Knight-Dragon

The Mongols conquered China. And beyond. Enough said.

A similar argument would say Germans conquered Britain because Victoria's mother was German and :gasp: so was her husband.

The fact that the Mongols mainly used North Chinese infantry and naval marines (as well as Arab siege engineers and probably others) to conquer the Southern Song made it no less of a fact that they did conquer the Southern Song.

Ignoring that the Song waged all-out war against the Jin, which directly led to Jin and thus Song's downfall. Headline history completely distorts the picture; China was pretty much conquered by itself with Mongols at the helm (just another dynasty). It doesn't matter what ethnic group that dynasty was, really. This is why China structurally remained Chinese from its culture to its government to its genetic make-up. There was no "total conquest" so to speak.

ds61514

I stand corrected. My initial understanding was that Genghis' initial attacks during the early 1200s caused Xi-Xia to submit to Genghis. It is not disputed that Xi-Xia started attacked Jin around 1211, but maybe that was because Xi-Xia wanted to curry favor with Genghis.. Bad move for them

Yes. However they did use Xixia as a springboard into Northern Jin territories.

 

[awesome]

i first heard of rain on the colbert report and i never heard of boa (or half of the other stuff in the original post, for that matter) until this thread

 

[Thormodr]

K Pop is truly awful.

Expect for Harisu of course.

 

[Dachs]

I don't know, Victoria held sway over a huge swathe of the globe, I suppose Germany conquered India? There was no one "Mongol conquest" of any "China" back then, China was split into Dali, Xixia, Jin and Nansong. Jin was attacked simultaneously by the Mongols and the Song, and the Mongols used Western Xia to launch their invasions into North China. Credit should be given where credit is due: the Song and Mongols toppled Jin. To say otherwise would be like saying "America won World War 2" or something equally asinine.

This is silly. At the end of the day, the Yuan were left standing with full possession of basically all of mainland China. What more do you want as far as "they conquered China" goes? This is like saying the Romans didn't conquer Greece because there were several bazillion independent Greek states at the time, and so they had to conquer each one individually, and played them off against each other so you can't give credit to the Romans, you have to give it to the Romans, Achaians, Pontos, Makedonia, the Dardanians, the Thraikians, and so forth...

Alexander did not conquer India. He conquered Punjab, there is a huge difference. The first statement is exaggeration, to get a "wow" effect.

Oh, sure, as far as the original statement goes, it was for rhetorical purposes and dramatic effect. But Alexander would have said that he conquered India, because the Indus Valley was in his hands, and that's what India meant to the Greeks at the time. You don't get real exploration of the interior of the Subcontinent until Megasthenes' embassy to the Maurya courts during the Seleukid era. So you can say that Alexander didn't conquer the territory that we now associate with the Indian republic, but you can't really say that he didn't conquer 'India', any more than the Teutonic Order didn't conquer 'Prussia' because they never took over Berlin, Pomerania, or the other stuff that was later associated with the Hohenzollern Prussian kingdom.

 

[lolno]

He never conquered India, regardless of what they thought at the time. Alexander conquered what he thought was India works, I suppose. Punjab wasn't equivalent to India back then.

and played them off against each other

The Mongols didn't play anyone off against each other. The Song and Jin were in open warfare long before they invaded- Mongols and Song were allied against Jin.

the Yuan were left standing with full possession of basically all of mainland China.

And the Yuan weren't "the Mongols" any more than Queen Victoria was "the Germans". It was dynastic change- not "ethnic conquest" that Altaric Golea Nationalists like to dream about.

 

[Wuzetian]

I find it odd that no one has addressed the tifa9292's original argument, that BoA, Rain, and Ban Ki Moon have had a greater influence on the development of the world than Genghis Khan and the Mongols.
______________________________________

BoA: Virtually everyone has heard of BoA. Virtually everyone knows BoA stands for Beat of Angel. I am sure almost all Americans have heard of her, because of her tremendous flop "I'll Eat You Up". Many Americans were subject to this atrocious Korean cultural invasion, and had to listen to it on their radios before they universally rejected BoA. Just the chorus alone should be enough to convince anyone of Korea's greatness, which probably grossed BoA about $14 in sales in the USA:

I'll eat you up, Your love, your love
I'll eat you up, Your love, your love
I'll eat you up
So yum yum
Can't get enough
I think I'm in love

(see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLnr2u_nj10 if you have a strong stomach; I memorized the dance~!~!).

RAIN: everyone knows Rain, famous for such brilliant wordplay hits like "It's Raining". Also, I know many of us have spent countless hours practicing his dance moves available in the many tutorials on youtube. At least, all patent lawyers know of him because he is busy trademarking the word for "Rain" in every language out there. He is also well known in the USA because he was robbed of the Academy Award for his brilliant portrayal of Taejo Togokahn in the Speed Racer movie. Apparently, Korea is such an influential country in this world that their biggest cultural icon can only get a gig out of the country by playing a Japanese person?

Ban Ki Moon: ?

Genghis Khan: never heard of him.

To me, it sounds like Korea should be an original civilization in the game, after other great historical civilizations (such as Singapore and Pitcairn Island) have been included.

Dude, you're awesome! I have to read it twice and then burst into a serious laughter.