Why no espionage til ren?

[thadian]

I liked civ 4 having espionage available early on, and i despised having to wait until the end-game to use corporations.

It felt like i had to sandbag, and instead of winning when i could just to use that.

For me, the mid-renaissance is the "late-game" and i don't want to wait until the point where ive already won or lost to be able to use this feature.

Now, i understand that i can start at a later age to circumvent this, but without "advanced start" option i am unable to enjoy starting in later ages or eras.

I hate it when "features" or "content" is never present in my games because they are over before the content arrives, like corporations in civ4 - i really had to sandbag to "see the effects" of them instead of being able to use them.

 

[thadian]

The idea i had would allow espionage to start in the classical era - with only several spy options. As you progress different techs, different espionage feats become available, allowing this content to factor in almost every era, getting slightly better as you progress tech.

This would also allow some "lesser techs" to gain more appeal by sticking an espionage trick to it, and the espionage would become better and better as time moved on.

 

[Babri]

Maybe Firaxis were thinking that civers might get overwhlemed with the new content !

Well it actually depends on the feature & the designer's logic. Ed Beach tried to give ciV a more historical flavour to make things more interesting. Thats why he added Espionage at the right time when it started becoming more important.

Personally I think a better solution would be that more useful options start unlocking around renissance but basic spying should be available earlier. In past rulers used espionage to cause chaos & inflict fear on enemies, to gather information about the enemy etc even in Medieval era & before.
For example Timur, the founder of Timurid Empire used spies to spread fear among the cities of his enemies by making them think how mighty was Timur's army !

 

[ahte]

I believe the idea behind it is that espionage comes in just as the power of religion is starting to wane. You're moving from one system to another so that the tone of the game changes over time. Therefore, the early game has a strong religious flavour, the mid-game has an espionage flavour, and the late game is represented by the Autocracy/Order/Freedom ideological split.

We will have to wait and see exactly how flavourful this turns out to be, but I think the idea is pretty good. It's too easy for the Renaissance era to feel essentially the same as the previous eras, except with your units' attack strength dialled up a few notches.

 

[thadian]

yeah, Attilla wasn't killed by a spy (poison) and spies didn't run amok around ancient cultures. I would suggest formal espionage to have started in the first cultures. I could picture a group of seasoned hunters chasing all the animals out of an area so when a neighboring tribe came to hunt the lands were empty.

Ancient romans, greeks and heck all over the world used spies and espionage.

However, i accept not having the ability to train spies on turn 1. However, having to wait until THAT late just feels absurd. Especially without advance starts.

Seems like you and me are on the same page, on grounds of starting it early and having it "progress" through the ages and get better with newer tricks.

At the very least the medieval era is when things start getting spicy, with weaker civ's made irrelevant and the future superpowers aiming to the sky - but the weaker civ's STILL have a chance to change the situation.

 

[Gucumatz]

yeah, Attilla wasn't killed by a spy (poison) and spies didn't run amok around ancient cultures. I would suggest formal espionage to have started in the first cultures. I could picture a group of seasoned hunters chasing all the animals out of an area so when a neighboring tribe came to hunt the lands were empty.

Ancient romans, greeks and heck all over the world used spies and espionage.

However, i accept not having the ability to train spies on turn 1. However, having to wait until THAT late just feels absurd. Especially without advance starts.

Seems like you and me are on the same page, on grounds of starting it early and having it "progress" through the ages and get better with newer tricks.

At the very least the medieval era is when things start getting spicy, with weaker civ's made irrelevant and the future superpowers aiming to the sky - but the weaker civ's STILL have a chance to change the situation.

I have to agree, the Ren Era seems a little late. Medieval would be more interesting to see it mix at the height of religion before it starts waning and with espionage. Ren seems to be extended backwards apparently as well so could take longer to get to than previously

 

[KillingMeSoftly]

I dunno what kinda crazy games you guys are playing, but Renaissance is decidedly mid-game for me. If I do something like bum rush a civ or two with swords really early, yeah, Renaissance comes across as late game as you've essentially already won by the Classical era. That's not the kinda strategy I do most games, though. Late medieval and Renaissance is usually where my ball really gets rolling.

So it comes across to me as a solid spot to put Espionage. Obviously spies have been a thing throughout recorded history. But it's another system to play with as the Religion game starts to wind down, and the Ideology game (Freedom vs Autocracy vs Order) begins to pick up. It just adds variety to the second half of the game, where the first half is already dominated by Religion.

Also will maybe give some incentive not to do the swordsman rush to victory every game.

 

[That nerdy kid]

We all know that spies and forged documents never existed in Rome or Carthage or China.

 

[BobDole]

We all know that spies and forged documents never existed in Rome or Carthage or China.

It's a video game. Easier to have it come up after religion, and gives you something to look forward to after religion becomes less important.

Why no espionage til ren?
I liked civ 4 having espionage available early on, and i despised having to wait until the end-game to use corporations.

It felt like i had to sandbag, and instead of winning when i could just to use that.

For me, the mid-renaissance is the "late-game" and i don't want to wait until the point where ive already won or lost to be able to use this feature.

Now, i understand that i can start at a later age to circumvent this, but without "advanced start" option i am unable to enjoy starting in later ages or eras.

I hate it when "features" or "content" is never present in my games because they are over before the content arrives, like corporations in civ4 - i really had to sandbag to "see the effects" of them instead of being able to use them.

I have a hard time you're winning/basically locking up victory in EVERY game you play before the Renaissance Era. Corporations in Civ IV? Yeah, they came late.....really late. Espionage doesn't. Can't really compare the two in terms of amount of time it takes to utilize them.

 

[thadian]

if i haven't won by rifleman, i will likely lose, this is the late game for me either way.

my comp isn't able to handle the turn lag well, i posted a dxdiag in the tech support section.

then again, the "pace" of things might change to fix the "rush or die" spectrum.

 

[Drill IV]

Perhaps a confused German person was involved in the design process. In German, the same word stands for "enlightenment" and "reconnaissance"


EDIT: Could have been worse, come to think of it. The same term also means "sex education"

 

[Kabloosh]

if i haven't won by rifleman, i will likely lose, this is the late game for me either way.

my comp isn't able to handle the turn lag well, i posted a dxdiag in the tech support section.

then again, the "pace" of things might change to fix the "rush or die" spectrum.

That sucks. I like the military aspect the best in the late industrial/modern era since it has the most diverse unit types. Renaissance sucks since all your crossbowmen upgrade into melee units along with everything else except cannons.
Plus, the naval game doesn't really start until you get destroyers/subs/battleships. I really hope they add more naval ships for the older eras. I figure since they are going with a melee ship type they need 1 ranged and 1 melee for each era.

My last game I literally waited to win until I had 6 nuclear missiles and like 8 atomic bombs along with 2 massive armies. One to invade from the borders and another to just gun for China's capital to end it along with a massive navy and air force to support it all. I nuked all his massive cities just to destroy his production capabilities and make the invasion easy which is was since I had 900k troops according to the demographics. I had an empire spanning 30 cities on a large terra map so fielding a stupid massive military was easy. It just takes 10 minutes to give out all the orders and think of how I want to engage things.

One thing I would like to see is siege units being able to destroy unguarded tile improvements. This would mean you could use a fighter/bomber/artillery/battleship/cruise missile to take out strategic resources. This would definitely make it important to guard those locations especially when you start entering the industrial era with planes and all. Tile improvements would obviously have HP with only the cruise missile and pillaging it normally would do enough damage to destroy it in 1 attack. Part of war is hitting the supply lines and outside of nukes and taking over cities and bringing your units close to pillaging(which seems pointless IMO since you'll most likely have that city in the next few turns).
Plus, the cruise missile has got to be the most useless unit in the game save for it being "fun" to use.

 

[smallfish]

Plus, the cruise missile has got to be the most useless unit in the game save for it being "fun" to use.

They are alright. Cheap and easy to produce, and when you just want to produce something instant to rack up military power, they help a lot. They do come way too late though.

 

[Maktaka]

It's a gameplay decision.

Consider how you can resolve an early or mid-game military stalemate between yourself and another civ. You can out-tech them. You can call in one of the other civs as an ally. You can sue for peace and conquer a different player, then use the new resources to try again. These are all opportunities to grow, whether in territory, tech, or diplomacy. In the early and mid game you grow out of problems, and religion is heavily slanted towards enabling this.

In the late game however, the tech tree is complete (or almost complete) so out-teching isn't as viable. Civilizations have been getting conquered or have fallen behind to the point of uselessness, so diplomacy is less viable. There are fewer areas to grow into through settling or conquest. You need a new tool in your arsenal that doesn't rely on expansion, and espionage fills that role.

I can certainly see this as something which will change in the future, with one extra spy showing up in the Medieval area (and I can guarantee we'll see a mod within a week of release which grants extra spies early and often), but I agree with their current stance of starting with espionage relegated to the era where it's needed most and seeing how things play out after release before pushing it into eras where its effects are less necessary.

 

[nokmirt]

Spies go back to the earliest times. Perhaps they will expand espionage at a later time. With new ideas it is better to get them worked out and balanced first.

 

[AlpsStranger]

Obviously they didn't do their homework. I can't believe they would overlook something so silly in what is obviously meant to be a completely and utterly realistic history simulator.

 

[rastak]

I saw an interview that somewhat explained. The sense of progression across history has always been well represented by military units. The designers were trying to give that same sense of diplomatic progression as the years went by (per the interview I saw on youtube). Essentially, religion driving diplomatic interaction for the first half of the game with Government philosophy driving the late game diplomacy. Perhaps espionage fueling the transition (my take)?

 

[Txurce]

There is a difference between individual emissaries and spies existing pre-Renaissance and the expansion of diplomacy (and therefore espionage) in the Renaissance. Just as Civ doesn't have individual units like (for example) snipers, so individual spies (with names) aren't in G&K. Think of it as a bureaucracy of sorts, and it's easier to accept why it starts in the Renaissance, aside from better gameplay.

 

[cuso210]

I thin I've seen a mod that allows you to use spies since medieval era, so you could use that. Also, I think they want us to use spies in some sort of "Cold War", so ren is a good start in that context.

 

[RealHuhn]

I thin I've seen a mod that allows you to use spies since medieval era, so you could use that. Also, I think they want us to use spies in some sort of "Cold War", so ren is a good start in that context.

Renaissance begins with astronomy, gunpowder, banking etc. I hardly call that cold war and it's early enough to have a huge impact on the outcome of the game.
I honestly don't know what the problem is here. ^^