Why put out an unfinished game?

[KahunaGod]

I dont know the relationship valve/steam has with the developers. Thats an area I am admitedly uneducated about, so I decided to keep my trap shut (a major undertaking btw).

I see your point about a very late call on cancelling release. But in the end it still really hurts the developer the most. I can promise you that the developers paid more for the physical media advertising. Its called co-op dollars and its how retailers can afford to advertise a 3rd parties product for purchase at their store.

I am not sure how the pre-orders through steam would work out, and who gets what dollar from the order. When you have a product that is totally digital, there is no physical media cost. While steam would give rebates back to customers who complained if a release date were puched back, steam would also get nack the royalties it paid to the developer. This is different from the hard copy retailers, because they havent received or sold the physical product yet, because it isnt released. They would lose some money on labor, maybe setting up displays in store and putting up other stuff, buts thats a drop in the bucket on top of the fact that they would be using labor allready paid for the time to do such work, not extra labor purchased just for that event (although a midnight release would change that, as certain logistics would have to be put into place by the retailers). Back on the valve/steam digital pre-order side, they would probably lose some fees paid to credit card companies on the purchases and maybe some other fees, but those costs WOULD most likely be covered in a contract with the developer.

Thinking about all this makes me again realise how hard it actually is to be a success. Quality wins out.

 

[EmpireOfCats]

Blizzard and Valve, by the way, are swimming in money. They have development budgets that allow software to remain in development "until they are finished."

This seems to be a chicken-and-egg question to me: Maybe they are swimming in money because they release finished, high-quality games that aren't so buggy you can hardly play them. What Civ 5 has taught me is not to buy a 2K game when it is released, but wait at least half a year (if at all).

In contrast, StarCraft 2 worked fantastically out of the box (both on PC and Mac, by the way), so I'm going to pre-order Diablo 3 ASAP. There are a whole lot of things I don't like about Left 4 Dead 2 (the characters, the daylight setting, the stupid AI bots) but technically, it worked just fine right from the beginning. I'll virtually be standing in line for Portal 2.

Frankly, I think it would have been in our interest if either Valve or Blizzard had bought Firaxis. 2K is obviously out of their depth with a game of this complexity and size.

 

[charon2112]

...StarCraft 2 worked fantastically out of the box (both on PC and Mac, by the way)

Personally, I'd rather play this "buggy, unfinished" Civ V, instead of a perfect Starcraft II any day.

 

[Vordeo]

This seems to be a chicken-and-egg question to me: Maybe they are swimming in money because they release finished, high-quality games that aren't so buggy you can hardly play them.

I don't have exact numbers on me, but I think they're swimming in cash because their franchises sell much, much more.

Let's be honest here, turn based strategy games just don't sell as much (and aren't as mainstream) as RTS games, shooters, and Diablo. That's not even mentioning the cash cows that are WoW and Steam. The closest franchise Take 2 has to those is probably Bioshock, and I seriously doubt that shifts anything near what Blizzard/Valve's stuff does.

On that note, would anyone happen to have a link to a site with video game sales data on hand?

 

[Jharii]

This seems to be a chicken-and-egg question to me: Maybe they are swimming in money because they release finished, high-quality games that aren't so buggy you can hardly play them. What Civ 5 has taught me is not to buy a 2K game when it is released, but wait at least half a year (if at all).

Blizzard's cash cow was WoW. WoW was released a complete and utter mess. It took at least two months to right that ship. They just happened to capitalize on a genre that the general population was willing to be patient with while they worked out all the bugs. WoW was a perfect storm, not a perfect game.

Valve now has Steam which allows their game production to be little more than a hobby for the company.

And Firaxis cannot conjure money out of thin air. If they run out of money, they run out of money. They have to fire employees and potentially close the doors.

So no, the chicken-egg argument does not really apply. It's a matter of whether your previous chicken was successful enough to hatch your next egg. WoW and Valve have consistent and (overly) abundant money coming in every single day. Their chickens have evolved into mammals, so they just give birth to more chickens when they are fully developed.

Frankly, I think it would have been in our interest if either Valve or Blizzard had bought Firaxis. 2K is obviously out of their depth with a game of this complexity and size.

No, they are just out of money. Curious... what was the last complex turn-based strategy game that Blizzard or Valve released? What is their track record in this genre?

Not to mention they made their fortune from providing one of the most dumbed down games ever to be resoundingly successful. Diablo, SC, and Warcraft weren't exactly geared for the super-genius, either.

 

[Brawndo]

2K/Firaxis handled this perfectly:

1. Have community managers on sites like this one to generate hype
2. Start selling preorders months before the game is even ready for release
3. 2K gives PC Gamer an exclusive review, which pretty much guaranteed at least an 8.5/10 score
4. Don't release the demo until launch day
5. Use Steam and a clever EULA, so it is impossible to return the game
6. Release a "deluxe version" with an additional civ and some maps (not worth $10 at all) that hardcore fans would surely buy, then a month or so after launch day, release the same DLC for $5 for other customers who were initial holdouts because now the price is reduced and it is a "deal"


Steps 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 = MAD MONEY SON, $$$ BIG FACED HUNDREDS $$$

I found this top secret photo of an 2K exec on September 22nd:

Spoiler :

Here's a protip: Don't ever preorder a 2K Games or Firaxis product ever again. CFC is partly to blame for all of this.

 

[Jharii]

Wow, that's pretty cool. You have described just about every major release over the last 5 years, with some adjustments or the outright elimination of step 5.

 

[PieceOfMind]

2K/Firaxis handled this perfectly:

1. Have community managers on sites like this one to generate hype
2. Start selling preorders months before the game is even ready for release
3. 2K gives PC Gamer an exclusive review, which pretty much guaranteed at least an 8.5/10 score
4. Don't release the demo until launch day
5. Use Steam and a clever EULA, so it is impossible to return the game
6. Release a "deluxe version" with an additional civ and some maps (not worth $10 at all) that hardcore fans would surely buy, then a month or so after launch day, release the same DLC for $5 for other customers who were initial holdouts because now the price is reduced and it is a "deal"


Steps 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 = MAD MONEY SON, $$$ BIG FACED HUNDREDS $$$

I found this top secret photo of an 2K exec on September 22nd:

Spoiler :

Here's a protip: Don't ever preorder a 2K Games or Firaxis product ever again. CFC is partly to blame for all of this.

Totally shopped. That's not much money at all.

 

[JLoZeppeli]

A lot of people are getting tired of the same post being made that the game is "unfinished." When random poster 107 posts this, expect the same answers. You should be complaining about the same old topic just as much as you complain about the same old answers.

FYI, when Civ4 released, there was an issue with ATI cards and players with those cards could not play the game for weeks. I would hardly call this a "small" number of people. Here's a little refresher.

tech issues are something i don 't care, because some times are understandable... Game flaws, exploit, gamebreaking issues are something they had to test before release... Civ IV, to be fair and honest, had very few of these problems... Civ V is a whole mess, like the Four Horsemen of Apocalypse, as i named the conquest victory by 4 hosemen.....

 

[vandyr]

Maybe they are swimming in money because they release finished, high-quality games that aren't so buggy you can hardly play them.

No, they're swimming in money because of the success of their products, most notably, World of Warcraft, which, when it launched, was a bug infested mess that was barely playable for almost a month. People falling through the world, servers crashing left and right, constant rubber banding, quests that wouldn't complete, magical disappearing loot, etc.

Selective memory runs rampant here, kind of like everyone remembering the Civ IV release as some kind of launch day golden child.

 

[KahunaGod]

2K/Firaxis handled this perfectly:

1. Have community managers on sites like this one to generate hype
2. Start selling preorders months before the game is even ready for release
3. 2K gives PC Gamer an exclusive review, which pretty much guaranteed at least an 8.5/10 score
4. Don't release the demo until launch day
5. Use Steam and a clever EULA, so it is impossible to return the game
6. Release a "deluxe version" with an additional civ and some maps (not worth $10 at all) that hardcore fans would surely buy, then a month or so after launch day, release the same DLC for $5 for other customers who were initial holdouts because now the price is reduced and it is a "deal"


Steps 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 = MAD MONEY SON, $$$ BIG FACED HUNDREDS $$$

I found this top secret photo of an 2K exec on September 22nd:

Spoiler :

Here's a protip: Don't ever preorder a 2K Games or Firaxis product ever again. CFC is partly to blame for all of this.

Caveat Emptor. Free Market Society. I didnt have to buy this game. I have a part in my own unhappiness.

 

[Jharii]

tech issues are something i don 't care, because some times are understandable... Game flaws, exploit, gamebreaking issues are something they had to test before release... Civ IV, to be fair and honest, had very few of these problems... Civ V is a whole mess, like the Four Horsemen of Apocalypse, as i named the conquest victory by 4 hosemen.....

So your love is conditional. Gotcha.

 

[Pulseczar]

Because you may be surprised to know it costs money to keep a game in development for an extended period of time, and Take Two is not exactly swimming in it. Yeah, I know, how selfish of them to not go bankrupt so you can play a game with less bugs that will be fixed anyway.

Civ IV should have taught you that, or did everyone conveniently forget a sizable number of people couldn't even play the game at release?

If it's a problem with them running out of money, then they should just say so. A lot of us would support them and their decision to release an unfinished game, in order to keep their head above water and give us a great game in the end. But to just release a horribly unfinished game without any explanation why, just leaves us questioning all kinds of things, especially their integrity.

 

[SuperJay]

Wow, this is new and exciting. I've never read a thread like this before.

There are some interesting points here that have not been discussed previously.

 

[Jharii]

If it's a problem with them running out of money, then they should just say so. A lot of us would support them and their decision to release an unfinished game, in order to keep their head above water and give us a great game in the end. But to just release a horribly unfinished game without any explanation why, just leaves us questioning all kinds of things, especially their integrity.

Your opinion of the state of the game differs with others, however. They are working to patch the game. Sometimes silence is louder than words, and embarassment may be a factor in that silence. They know they have issues to take care of and they do have a little egg on their face. They are trying to take care of them. Whether they succeed or not remains to be seen.

I'm not making excuses for them, just simply putting some things into perspective.

 

[vandyr]

If it's a problem with them running out of money, then they should just say so. A lot of us would support them and their decision to release an unfinished game, in order to keep their head above water and give us a great game in the end. But to just release a horribly unfinished game without any explanation why, just leaves us questioning all kinds of things, especially their integrity.

Get used to it. Unless you're playing a one time title, and this is really nothing new, its generally going to happen. This same complaint comes up everytime a new mmo hits the shelves, and its never been any different, not even with Blizzard. Generally, games that expect to release a few expacs and rely on future development are going to release unfinished.

The only funny thing is that, since this practice has been going on for years, some of you act like its never happened before. While I don't necessarily condone it, if we waited for every game to be a completely finished product, they'd never see the light of day.

 

[Palfouri]

This seems to be a chicken-and-egg question to me: Maybe they are swimming in money because they release finished, high-quality games that aren't so buggy you can hardly play them. What Civ 5 has taught me is not to buy a 2K game when it is released, but wait at least half a year (if at all).

In contrast, StarCraft 2 worked fantastically out of the box (both on PC and Mac, by the way), so I'm going to pre-order Diablo 3 ASAP. There are a whole lot of things I don't like about Left 4 Dead 2 (the characters, the daylight setting, the stupid AI bots) but technically, it worked just fine right from the beginning. I'll virtually be standing in line for Portal 2.

Frankly, I think it would have been in our interest if either Valve or Blizzard had bought Firaxis. 2K is obviously out of their depth with a game of this complexity and size.

I assume you say this because SC2 is just StarCraft 2010 Championship Edition, and you would rather have Blizzard give you Civ IV 2010 Championship Edition then have them try anything new with Civ V.

Valve would just use it to advertise more TF2 hats.

 

[Jharii]

I assume you say this because SC2 is just StarCraft 2010 Championship Edition, and you would rather have Blizzard give you Civ IV 2010 Championship Edition then have them try anything new with Civ V.

Valve would just use it to advertise more TF2 hats.

Awwwww. Have you picking away at that shiny new paint job to see what's underneath???

Yeah, I keep waiting for Austin Kutcher to show up, snapping his Nikon at me, screaming "You got punk'd!"

 

[testdummy653]

Wow, this is new and exciting. I've never read a thread like this before.

There are some interesting points here that have not been discussed previously.

I feel like there are so many experts on game design in this forum, that we can make our own great game.

 

[PieceOfMind]

EmpireOfCats, I can't help but feel a big part of your admiration of Valve and Blizzard is their attitude towards Mac users.