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Why so few beliefs?

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by pineappledan, Jan 9, 2020.

  1. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives King

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    You seem to have given a very detailed response a relatively small part of what I said. I never mentioned Christianity. Only one line of my discussion refers to monotheism vs. polytheism and pantheism, and to be frank I added it as an afterthough.

    I did discuss concepts that appeal to me and others that do not. And I did say that some of the qualities I mentioned negatively have precedent of existing within religions historically. I don't really think that's debatable. I did not say that either the qualities I like or the ones I dislike are exclusive to Christianity, monotheistic religions, or any other particular group. Obviously religions IRL have more than one or two beliefs, and many of them are common across different faiths.

    My main point, however, is that certain themes and concepts seem notably absent in the choices available in the game, specifically when enhancing and reforming your religion. I gave examples of where those themes are are present in the game (e.g pantheons and beliefs), religions they are central in IRL, and what they might look like as enhancers or reformations. If you have feedback in that regard it is welcome. Our objective was to improve the number and diversity of choices available to the player, and that is what I am suggesting.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2020
  2. Heinz_Guderian

    Heinz_Guderian Chieftain

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    Yeah? Well, that's just like... your opinion man
     
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  3. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Bad faith argument - a how-to guide:
    • Step 1: Declare your desire for less "prejudice, discrimination, and intolerance or an ethic of control and dominance", and more "non-violence, helping others, or diversity".
    • Step 2: Name-drop a bunch of religions, but no Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and Baha'i) as things that need more representation. Bookend step 2 inside step 1 in a single paragraph, so that they are conflated.
    • Step 3: Accuse reader of conflation. Cite the detection of your glaring omissions as misrepresentation. If the reader interprets an insinuation that Abrahamic religions are uniquely oppressive and intolerant then they just don't get you, man.
    This is funny to me because I have also been angling for inclusion of beliefs that typify other religions, and sometimes pushing them quite hard. Despite what @CrazyG has said, I have killed many darlings in this process.

    For summary:
    Trickster God (most prominent in African & Native American religions) -- dismissed as unworkable
    Caste System/Varna (Hinduism) -- dismissed as unbalanced and unfun
    Holy War (Islam) -- dismissed as overcomplicated and unbalanced
    Filial Piety (Confucianism) -- dismissed as an unnecessary rebrand of cooperation
    Devshirme/Jizya (Islam) -- dismissed as not being syncretism
    Aniconism (Islam) -- dismissed because it involves inquisitors

    So I am left defending this list:
    Divine Revelation (Abrahamic/Buddhist/Zoroastrian)
    Reincarnation (Hinduism)
    Mendicancy (Hinduism/Buddhism)
    Sweat Lodges (Plains Indian)
    Dar-e Mehr (Zoroastrian)
    Ecumenism (Christianity)
    Emirates (Islam)
    Jizya/syncretism (Islam)**
    Liturgical Language (universal concept dating back to Akkadian use of ancient Sumerian in religious rites)
    Orthodoxy (universal concept for any organized religion with founding texts)

    In summary, the Enhancer list I have been gunning for is:
    Belief -- Primary Associated Religion -- Concept
    Dioceses -- Christian -- Administration and governance of church property
    Ecumenism -- Christianity -- inter-denominational collaboration and consensus-building, specifically on doctrinal matters
    Emirates -- Islam -- Monarchical system subsumed into a larger empire, preoccupied with spreading its culture and religion through trade
    Iconography -- Catholic/Hindu -- Religious art, often targeted towards the religious instruction of illiterate people
    Inquisition -- Christian/Shinto -- stamping out dangerous, heretical thought
    Jizya -- Islam -- A tax on non-believers living in lands ruled by another faith
    Liturgical Language -- universal -- Religious writings and rites are preserved in their original language, even by people who do not speak that language in everyday life
    Prophecy -- Monotheism -- God giving divine revelation to be communicated to the masses
    Universalism -- Baha'i -- Religious Truth spans cultural, linguistic, and even religious divides, affirming the worth of other belief systems
    Zealotry -- Judaism -- Violent ethno-religious ultra-nationalism

    2/10 that are overtly violent. (Inquisition, zealotry)
    3/10 that are, while not violent, enshrines a governing structure, maybe even an oppressive one. (Emirates, Jizya, Dioceses)
    3/10 that are not distinctly violent or non-violent (prophecy, liturgical language, iconography)
    2/10 that are actively about building bridges (ecumenism, universalism)

    EDIT - **I'm not even opposed to just reworking syncretism and leaving it called 'syncretism'. I just figured if it were to be changed to gold for non-followers, that sounds like a jizya. Then the defense for syncretism wasn't about how it was an appropriate name, or that they liked their non-specificity for the name, it's because syncretism is somehow super nice and kumbaya? Syncretism is, by any definition, cultural appropriation. It's at best value-neutral. To make that conceptual argument when there are beliefs like universalism that meaningfully celebrate and promote diversity on the table is laughable.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2020
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  4. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    You all forgot the Pastafarianism. I dont want to play the game anymore, if aspects of the Pastafarianism are not added after the religious rework.

    Joke aside. Its good to do some effort to use political correct and world open, diverse aspects from religions and place them in the game, but.... its still a game.
    Played mostly by people with a higher education and intelligance than the average man on the street (very likely cause of the necessary intelligence to play such a complex game).
    I think nobody would feel offended, if the game use brutal but true and historic correct descriptions or game components which reflect it.
    I dont like to play Germany in the game cause I want to invade Poland and raze every city with jewish followers, I play Germany, cause I love my country and like to see it as a glorious empire and think it has strong UAs.

    You should either collect all religious concepts you would like to see in the game, diverse and positve, and then think, which parts of the game they could touch,
    OR create beliefs with an interesting gameplay aspect and name it with a concept, which fits the best, even it isnt 100% representive.
    I dont think there is a need for more philosophical, historical and political correctness in the game, cause everything we see here are abstractions anyway, and everyone knows this.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2020
  5. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives King

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    You have just written paragraphs about what you think I said, after I told you that is not what I meant. And then claim I am the one arguing in bad faith?

    I looked for things that are currently not in the game. You don't have to like that, but telling me that I need to somehow pay homage to Abrahamic religions while I do it is just silly. Jainism or Zoroastroism is fine, but no, if I prefer something from Shinto or Taoism instead (both from Civs already in the game), suddenly it's a big deal?
    You might not have noticed, but I support many of the things that you proposed. I have some ideas too though. At least be willing to consider what I've put forth.
    If you like my ideas, use them. If you don't like my ideas, don't use them! Don't just pretend they don't exist because I didn't go about it in exactly the way that you wanted me to.
    And how are any of my suggestions ahistorical? Did you even read them? I specifically made a point of doing research on the subject before I submitted anything.
    I'm proud of my country too! That's why I want to see it represented in the game, as per the enhancer I suggested, 'Dreamtime'. Uluru is already in the game, so it's not like this is something totally new.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2020
  6. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Just wanted to say, there are two ways to approach the goal, depending which focus you prefer.
    Didn't said that, but some of the currently active beliefs but also some suggested are not really 100% correct. Not specifically yours.
     
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  7. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives King

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    Would love to hear your feedback on my suggestions then. Or anyone's really. (Thanks CrazyG for yours.)
     
  8. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Too weak. Happiness is something I don't have to care anymore starting from renaissance in almost all games I play. Would be only interesting for warmongers, if there were an unhappiness reduction, even for puppets. But it's a bit hard to imagine brutal warmongers meditating peacefully.
    This is an enhancer I could imagine to pick. Maybe less culture but for both trade route types?
    Not a friend from instant yields and there are already a pantheon and a follower doing exactly the same, but with different yields. Could be interesting if you focus entirely on growth with all 3 beliefs, but think its probably too powerful.
    Pushing this to its extend with India or China is very likely overpowerd, while others may state, its too weak, cause they nearly completly stop growth in the late game in favor to work specialists.....
    Hard to tell from my point of view, cause I have nearly no experience with yield by birth pantheons or follower beliefs.
    Compare this with the Founder belief Ceremonial burial. The maximum the founder belief can give is 280:c5faith:+:c5culture:, only after doing some effort to convert 20 cities.
    Your suggestion would give up to 700:c5faith: without any done effort, of course only for 3 types of specialists, but I think its still to powerful.
    How would be this:
    Dreamtime
    If a Great Person is naturally born, gain 3 times the used :c5greatperson: as :c5faith:
    +15% :c5greatperson: in :c5goldenage: golden ages
    (It should be possible to check how many GP are naturally born and how many points they have cost, so adjusting the number afterwards shouldnt be a problem)
    Too weird.... But I see potential in creating an enhancer, which focuses on nature and terrain.
    Animism
    Gain +1 :c5food::c5culture::c5gold::c5faith: in the city, for each different type of terrain feature is worked:
    Forest / Jungle / Marsh / Oasis / Flood Plains / Atoll
    Animism 2
    Gain +2% to :c5culture: and +4% to :c5faith: for each different terrain type the city is working:
    Grassland / Plains / Desert / Tundra / Coast
    Again, this is too much and too weird. The part that I like is the specialist/non-specialist thing. -1:c5food: for specialists is too powerful and :c5science: for 2 non-specialist too. So, my suggestion would be this:
    +1:c5food: for every 2 specialists and +1:c5gold: for every 5 non-specialists
    +2:c5greatperson: for Artists and +2:c5greatperson: for Engineers in the capital
     
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  9. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    I will preface this by saying that I think beliefs of a single type need to have commonalities, and feel consistent within their type.
    • Pantheons give faith and help you found while giving small buffs throughout the game
    • Founders give on-empire effects, augmenting empire-wide yields or giving additional bonuses on religious actions
      • This is why I don’t think theocratic rule is a particularly great founder. Its effect is localized to cities, and is not an on-empire effect
    • Followers need to be confined to on-city effects because they can be spread to cities outside your empire. Anything is possible as long as it is localized city-centric
    • Enhancers Exist to augment your religious game. This can be done in several ways.
      • They can improve your ability to spread by boosting pressure from various sources
      • They can provide additional rewards for spreading, giving you more incentive to use religion to push a particular victory condition
      • They can provide side-goals for follower management, like managing non-believers in owned cities or improving your ability to resist foreign conversion
      • They can provide a faith sink and alternative rewards for spending faith, rather than simply hoarding it for GP buying in industrial.
      • This is why I have been so down on mendicancy and iconography. They don’t reward or improve spread; you can practically ignore religion beyond your borders and have the full potential of the enhancer unlocked. They do not augment your religion, they just augment your empire. Mendicancy is also net faith positive, so you just funnel that into GPs I guess...
    • Reformations are, ideally, gated off by tech or policies so that they get their full impact in late game.
      • As an example, faith buying buildings, WC-related bonuses, or faith-buying GPs.
      • This is why I don’t much care for crusader spirit; the belief’s full power is available regardless of your current tech era.
    I think there is room for a belief that augments TRs as an enhancer. This belief is sort of a hodgepodge, 5 different bonuses?? None of them actually help you spread or manage your religion, only the 1:c5faith: Per 2 owned cities rewards you for spreading, but only your owned cities?? 1:c5faith: for 2 cities is so weak I don’t know why I would bother. I suppose it’s there because dualism = 2?
    While not specific to GWAMs, we already have Jesuit education and Ceremonial Burial that give :c5faith:faith on GP expends.

    this enhancer doesn’t augment your religion game in any way, so there’s no additional reward keeping spreading relevant into the late game. I guess I just use the :c5faith:from GWAM expends to buy more GWAMs and expend then for more faith? I want to remind you, I’m the guy who got Sainthood torpedoed in the first place by demonstrating how you could use To the Glory if God, Sainthood, and Ceremonial burial to refund 1/3 of the faith cost of GPS. I have already killed this belief once before.
    This is just 3 pantheons smooshed together.
    We already have syncretism giving :c5culture:culture on :c5citizen:births. And goddess of love, and Cooperation
    Only problem is this doesn’t in any way enhance your religion. It’s just another mendicancy/iconography, with no intrinsic reward for managing your religious play.

    I have tried for years with Canada to incorporate bonuses for major civ diplomatic actions. I have received more complaints for even trying than I can count. Rewarding you for friendship with the AI puts all the power into the AI’s hands and f- that guy. Everyone has a better time if you just don’t choose to put your happiness into the hands of a temperamental machine player. I can tell you from personal experience that the general population of players will hate this bonus.
    This is a follower belief, and a weak one at that.
     
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  10. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives King

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    That's interesting. I've always valued happiness pretty highly, and I'm not much of a warmonger. I guess it's most useful if you follow the Artistry tree, or build wonders (or have a UA) that enhance golden ages.
    I got the impression that people felt growth was too weak in the late-game, which is why I wanted to see if it would be more interesting if it had more benefits. If it's not needed I'll just put it aside.
    That could work. I'm a big fan of yields on tiles myself, because it simplifies decision-making - you can see everything in front of you at the same time, so it's easier to optimise what tiles you are working. Whereas benefits you get from working tiles which aren't on the tiles are kind of hidden in a sense.
    OK. I feel like enforcing this too strictly can really limit the choices available in the game though. Specifically:
    Sometimes I go for reformation before enhancing. If I wait until my religion is enhanced before I try to convert one of my nieghbours (in order to reform my religion), it's often a struggle because I'm competing against other civs who got there first. I'd really love for there to be more options when reforming, but it's difficult to come up with things in that area that haven't already been covered in some way.

    Hmm. Too variable? Pity. Seems like a good idea to me. We already have mechanics that work off DoFs in the form of the International Finance Centre, I don't remember anyone starting a riot over that.
    Well, that's something! Let's see if I can rework some my ideas.

    Founder


    Dualism
    Unlocks Bridge of Balance (+4 production, +4 faith, +4 food, +4 science, holy sites gain +5 culture)
    When you complete a world wonder, gain 60 golden age points scaling with the population of your holy city.
    When you enter a golden age, gain 60 production in your holy city for each city you own.

    Follower


    Meditation
    +1 happiness in city
    Happy cities gain +2 faith, +2 food, +2 production

    Dreaming Time

    +1 faith, +1 culture, +1 golden age point in city
    +25% great writer, artist, and musician rate

    Enhancer

    Animism

    Oases, lakes and atolls gain +2 faith
    Forest, jungle, and marshes gain +1 faith
    Religious units can move through forest, jungle and marshes without penalty

    Zen

    Gardens gain +2 faith, +2 culture
    +1 happiness in city
    Happy cities generate +25% religious pressure, and recieve -25% religious pressure

    Karma

    External trade routes gain +2 culture, +2 science
    Internal trade routes gain +4 food, +4 production
    Doubles religious pressure from trade routes
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2020
  11. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Just a bump for this thread, as I think there are still some good ideas to consider. Some of G's recent changes eliminate I think the need for some of the ideas posted before, but there are some ones above that I still think are cool and worth a look.
     
  12. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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