Why so few beliefs?

[JamesNinelives]

I love God of Storms, and I like the reworked Mendicancy and Iconography. Liturgical language is interesting!

I liked Syncretism a lot though, and while I have never heard of Devshirme before looking it up I can't say I'm keen on replacing an enhancer about cultural diversity with one that involves child soldiers :|. I get that other people aren't keen on it, but why not just make Devshirme something seperate, seeing as the themes and the benefits seem to be so different?

Thanks for your work on this!

 

[pineappledan]

I liked Syncretism a lot though, and while I have never heard of Devshirme before looking it up I can't say I'm keen on replacing an enhancer about cultural diversity with one that involves child soldiers :|. I get that other people aren't keen on it, but why not just make Devshirme something seperate, seeing as the themes and the benefits seem to be so different?

Janissaries are already in the game, so civ has already incorporated child soldiers explicitly into the game. Devshirme was just the word for the policy that recruited Dhimmis into the Janissary corp. If a less overt name is preferred, then Jizya is an alternative.

 

[Stalker0]

I've put together my short list of the beliefs that between Bite and PAD I like the most (with a few small tweaks by me).

Sacral Monuments:
+3 towards Great Writer/Artist/Musician in your Holy City
National and World Wonders gain +1

Godly Inspiration:
+3 towards Great Engineer/Merchant/Scientist in your Holy City
+5 in Capital

Prophecy (changed)
Prophets are 25% cheaper
GPTI and landmarks get +11
Holy sites get additional +444

Orthodoxy (changed)
Religion spreads 20% faster and to cities 20% further away
Pressure to friendly CS doubled
Gain 1 and 1 for every 8 Followers of this Religion in Foreign Cities.

Proselytismus:
Cities which are target by an own spy or trade route receive +40 religious pressure
Gain +1 trade route
+10 from the East India Company

(Follower) - Reincarnation

When you expend a Great Person, gain 25GPPs of the same type in your Capital, scaling with era.​

(Follower) - Mendicancy (rework)
Internal Trade Routes generate +2 of their respective yield, scaling with Era.
+2 Production if City has a Specialist.

(Enhancer) - Liturgical Language

+1% Tourism modifier towards a target civilization for every Follower in the Target Civilization's cities (max of 34%).
Tourism from Theming bonuses Doubled in cities following this Religion​

 

[BiteInTheMark]

(Pantheon) - God of Storms
+2 in City.
1 and 1 for every 2 ocean tiles worked by a City.
Pillaging a tile provides an additional 10HP

It will be really hard or even impossible to found with this pantheon. There was a reason, why God of the Sea got faith added to each city, cause faith for each sea ressource wasn't even enough. Here you will gain not even half the faith, cause working sea tiles without resources is early a real waste.

(Founder) - Divine Revelation
Unlocks Holy Archives wonder (333, +5 science to holy sites, 3 slots for Great Works of Literature (+8/2 when themed))
When you discover a new Technology, gain 1// for each Follower of your Religion (max of 250 Followers).

I would really like to see this Founder, even I find it a little bit weaker than Holy Law or Way of Transcendence. Maybe a little unique adjustment?
When you discover a new Technology, gain 1// for each Follower of your Religion (max of 250 Followers) and each technology you already have researched. Not necessary, but maybe interesting.

(Follower) - Reincarnation
When you expend a Great Person, gain 25GPPs of the same type in your Capital, scaling with era.

This is not a follower belief, cause using a GP didnt have anything to do with a city. Every follower belief adds yields or buildings to its own city but this is locked with the capital. This would be an interesting secondary effect for Iconography instead of the +15% modifier.

(Follower) - Mendicancy (rework)
Internal Trade Routes generate +2 of their respective yield, scaling with Era.
+2 Production if City has a Specialist.

Not really sure if this makes sense. Mendicancy is a solid enhancer, theres no need to remove it from the enhancer list.
I know you define enhancer to be faith sinks or helpers for spreading, but this is your definition, but not set in stone. Enhancer without faith sink or spreading power have a right to be there, if balanced against the other enhancers.

(Follower) - Sweat Lodges
Allows you to purchase Sweat Lodges with Faith Spoiler Sweat Lodge : Sweat Lodge
(Follower) - Dar-e Mehr
Allows you to purchase Dar-e Mehr with Faith Spoiler Dar-e Mehr :

The first one is in my eyes a weird mixture different small advantages, making not really sense to me.
I really would have supported a building with a converter ability, based on more stable yields like food or faith (no giant increase like culture). But I dont like to see another source with instant yields poping up.

(Enhancer) - Iconography (rework)
+3Great Engineer Points in your Capital
+1Point towards Great Writer/Artist/Musician in your Holy City for every Civilization sharing your Majority Religion
+15%Great Person rate during a Golden Age.

Under unlucky circumstances you end with +6 in total, if you are not able to spread your religion, making this enhancer kinda useless. Spending a lot of faith to convert enough cities to your religion to get a number of worth may be less efficiant than saving this faith and buy a GP with it. A compromise could be this:
+2Point towards Great Writer/Artist/Musician/Engineer in your Holy City and additional +1 for Great Writer/Artist/Musician, if atleast one foreign civilization follows your major religion (denies the possibility of imbalance on huge maps / 43civ games)
When you expend a Great Person, gain 25GPPs of the same type in your Capital

(Enhancer) - Devshirme (replaces Syncretism)
11 for each non-follower in cities with your majority Religion
1XP for new military units for each follower of your religion in cities not following your religion.
-2unhappiness from Religious Unrest in all cities

Is there a need to rescue the Syncretism enhancer at all cost? Maybe throwing the concept away is the best solution.

(Enhancer) - Ecumenism (replaces Orthodoxy)
Religion Spreads 20% faster (40% with Printing Press)
Religion Spreads 20% further Away
1 Happiness for every 10 followers in Unowned Cities

I support this.

(Enhancer) - Emirates (replaces Mendicancy)
Religion spreads to friendly City-States at double rate
Religious pressure via Trade Routes doubled
2 for Trade Routes to Cities following your religion and 2 for Trade Routes to Cities not following your religion, scaling with Era

Gaining a more sparse yield for NOT putting effort in converting a city, even the other half of the enhancer is there to convert cities dont make that much sense. In the last era, thats up to 200, when most civs generate not more than 400-500 , a little bit broken, even more, if you play Venice. Its no bad idea, but in total I like my concept with spies/trade routes generating religious pressure and +1 trade route more.

 

[pineappledan]

It will be really hard or even impossible to found with this pantheon. There was a reason, why God of the Sea got faith added to each city, cause faith for each sea ressource wasn't even enough. Here you will gain not even half the faith, cause working sea tiles without resources is early a real waste.

I think your assessment here is misleading.

• You can gain faith immediately on founding with no tech or boat investments, so it gets going faster.
• At the early stages, coast is the same as a grasslands tile; as good a tile as any other naked tile before you improve anything.
• Working a fish or atoll also counts towards 1 per 2.
• If It's slightly harder to found with than God of the Sea then that is acceptable; God of the Sea only gives bonuses to yields, while God of Storms also has the pillaging bonus.

This is not a follower belief, cause using a GP didnt have anything to do with a city. Every follower belief adds yields or buildings to its own city but this is locked with the capital.

Typo. The GPPs should go back to the GP's origin city.

I know you define enhancer to be faith sinks or helpers for spreading, but this is your definition, but not set in stone. Enhancer without faith sink or spreading power have a right to be there, if balanced against the other enhancers.

As long as they are my proposals I would want them to follow an internal logic. If you don't think Enhancers following a consistent theme is good, as evidenced by your own Enhancer proposals, then that's your opinion.

The first one is in my eyes a weird mixture different small advantages, making not really sense to me.

All the bonuses are the same bonuses given by any other religious building except the heal per turn and the science for plantations/camps. If you know about sweat lodges, you understand why healing/plantations/animals is be thematic and appropriate.

Seems less random than Stupa's or Mandir's bonuses

Under unlucky circumstances you end with +6 in total, if you are not able to spread your religion, making this enhancer kinda useless. Spending a lot of faith to convert enough cities to your religion to get a number of worth may be less efficiant than saving this faith and buy a GP with it. A compromise could be this:

Under unlucky circumstances you would be wise to pick a different belief. You could say the exact same thing about Dioceses or Universalism.

In a standard game, 5 religions are founded, leaving 3 civs to be converted. Converting 1 to your major religion gives a total of 9GPPs. 1-2 early conquests or Vassals can make this belief fairly easy to capitalize on, since a civ with 1-2 cities still contributes.

Gaining a more sparse yield for NOT putting effort in converting a city, even the other half of the enhancer is there to convert cities dont make that much sense.

I think Faith and Science are roughly equal in value for much of the post-founding game. What yields would you think are more appropriate? Perhaps /?

In the last era, thats up to 200, when most civs generate not more than 400-500 , a little bit broken, even more, if you play Venice. Its no bad idea, but in total I like my concept with spies/trade routes generating religious pressure and +1 trade route more.

In my game, I am in Modern with Fealty and modest boosts to Faith generation from my civ's UB. I currently have 750per turn.

I adopted Prophecy as my enhancer in this game and have 10 Holy Sites.

• I have 2 holy site I wouldn't otherwise have (25% cheaper GPs)
• In total, my holy sites give me 512116 with the boost from Prophecy (or 5983 base)
• I am getting an extra 10*(333) + 2*(5983)
• In total, I am getting 10484636 per turn from Prophecy, ignoring the Historical Event yields and the resistance bonuses Prophecy also gives.

I have 9 TRs (I got both Colossus and Petra), so if each were sent to a non-follower city, I would be getting 90 per turn. In comparison to Prophecy's yields, it looks to me like my Emirates proposal is weak, if anything.

I oppose adding more free TRs into the game. Between wonders and policies, there are 9 potentially free TRs up for grabs. That's quite enough without beliefs adding more.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

At the early stages, coast is the same as a grasslands tile; as good a tile as any other naked tile before you improve anything.

When do you work pure grasslands?
My capital started with 5 ocean ressources, 2 close wheats and a deer forest. Ive never worked any tile with less than 3 yields.
God of the Sea would give me immidiatly 21, and its very likely that I will have atleast one boat online, if Iam able to pick a pantheon, so thats already 2 . Your pantheon would need to work atleast 4 ocean tiles, no matter if there is a ressource or not, forcing me to ignore any land tile with a bonus or luxury ressource. Even working every good tile, I would end with only 2 versus 6 by God of the Sea. That pantheon is terrible for founding.
Even I play Carthage and my cities have a huge affinity towards sea tiles cause of instant light house, not one of my cities would gain more than 3 . I see some mid-late game potential by an Imperialism+Centaur Extractor play through, but thats really to niche to make this pantheon.

Typo. The GPPs should go back to the GP's origin city.

Now its even more terrible. I would never pick that.

In a standard game, 5 religions are founded, leaving 3 civs to be converted. Converting 1 to your major religion gives a total of 9GPPs. 1-2 early conquests or Vassals can make this belief fairly easy to capitalize on, since a civ with 1-2 cities still contributes.

I think guys which are running around and create vassals will not be the target of this Enhancer, or? Why do you even consists for that engineer points? Wouldnt it be better to give that to a second Enhancer for Engineer/Scientist/Merchant?

I think Faith and Science are roughly equal in value for much of the post-founding game. What yields would you think are more appropriate? Perhaps /?

In my game, I am in Modern with Fealty and modest boosts to Faith generation from my civ's UB. I currently have 750per turn.

Whats your science output? Usually I have several thousands of science per turn while the faith shiver around 400-600 (assuming I am not on a killing spree).

I adopted Prophecy as my enhancer in this game and have 10 Holy Sites.

• I have 2 holy site I wouldn't otherwise have (25% cheaper GPs)
• In total, my holy sites give me 512116 with the boost from Prophecy (or 5983 base)
• I am getting an extra 10*(333) + 2*(5983)
• In total, I am getting 10484636 per turn from Prophecy, ignoring the Historical Event yields and the resistance bonuses Prophecy also gives.

The yields you have calculated are right, but your assumption is still wrong.
Cause.... How much faith do you have spend to get that 10 holy sites? Each prophet is 1,46 times more expansive than the previous one, so with the discount, you have effectivly spend around
1280+1870+2720+3980+5800+8480+12380+18070.... Lets asume you have gotten 2 of the prophets by other options..... thats still an amount of 54580.... Now.... lets assume its turn 400 and you have played now 250 turns with already 10 holy sites running, the resulting yields from going that path is +104836 and -218.
So... lets take a look at your suggested Enhancer...how much faith would you have invested to be now able to get +90..... lets see...... ZERO...
Now assume you have taken Emirates and not Prophecy, now take that amount of faith you havnt invested (54580) and give it on top of an average value for that Enhancer of +45 for the 250 turns, the result is:
104836 versus +263 (both per turn for 250 turns)

Instead planting 10 holy sites to get some yields, you also could simply have taken Emirates with ZERO investment necessary and get now not only double as much faith, but also can spend over 50000 for GP which were other wise used for holy sites. (this not only shows how strong this Enhancer would be, but also how weak Prophecy is, outside of a Holy Land combination)

 

[pineappledan]

Whats your science output? Usually I have several thousands of science per turn while the faith shiver around 400-600 (assuming I am not on a killing spree).

Don't have it open anymore; maybe I'll edit this with the amount later.

Now its even more terrible. I would never pick that.

Then don't. I never pick Asceticism or Thrift. 4/5 of the time it would be born in your capital anyways.

I think guys which are running around and create vassals will not be the target of this Enhancer, or? Why do you even consists for that engineer points?

Maybe. If it scaled off number of major civs sharing your religion then that would be a unique method of spreader scaling, and it is most easily exploited by reducing a civ to a few cities. It would be a great pickup for a Domination/cultural civ like France or Japan.
The GEngineer point is there because it's iconography, and that relates a lot to architecture. GEng are also very important for a cultural victory, so it is also fitting.

Wouldnt it be better to give that to a second Enhancer for Engineer/Scientist/Merchant?

I don't much care for the idea of having 2 identical enhancers that only differ by what GPs they give points to. I think that idea is, at best, unimaginative.

So... lets take a look at your suggested Enhancer...how much faith would you have invested to be now able to get +90..... lets see...... ZERO...
Now assume you have taken Emirates and not Prophecy, now take that amount of faith you havnt invested (54580) and give it on top of an average value for that Enhancer of +45 for the 250 turns, the result is:
104836 versus +263 (both per turn for 250 turns)

Yeah that's a fair point. I was doing the Holy Land thingy.

How about this?
(Enhancer) - Emirates (replaces Mendicancy)

Religion spreads to friendly City-States at double rate
Religious pressure via Trade Routes Tripled
1 for Trade Routes to Cities following your religion and 1 for Trade Routes to Cities not following your religion, scaling with Era and Cultural Influence​

 

[CrazyG]

That God of Storms is really, really bad if you don't have sea resources. If you do have sea resource its much worse than God of the Sea. No one should work 2 food tiles in the early game. Adding half a faith and half a science doesn't change that.

(Enhancer) - Liturgical Language
+1% Tourism modifier towards a target civilization for every Follower in the Target Civilization's cities (max of 34%).
Tourism from Theming bonuses Doubled in cities following this Religion

I like the design of this, but I need to say that I'm never taking it unless the current enhancers get weakened (not just iconography).

I know I've said this before, but you really need to pay attention to what date you found or enhance religions. I typically enhance very early (sometimes before turn 100), around turn 140 at the latest. Rushing enhancing is currently one of the smartest things a player can do to improve their game. Tourism isn't really relevant till turn 200+ at the earliest. I just can't get myself to pass up so many yields now for the tourism later.

I'd really support making all the enhancers a little bit slower, it opens up more design space. For example, making Dioceses buff your grand temple, instead of just giving 20 yields instantly.

 

[JamesNinelives]

Janissaries are already in the game, so civ has already incorporated child soldiers explicitly into the game. Devshirme was just the word for the policy that recruited Dhimmis into the Janissary corp. If a less overt name is preferred, then Jizya is an alternative.

That's not what I'm objecting to, it's the removal of Syncretism. That's why I suggeted having it as it's own thing rather than a rework of an existing belief.

 

[JamesNinelives]

That God of Storms is really, really bad if you don't have sea resources. If you do have sea resource its much worse than God of the Sea. No one should work 2 food tiles in the early game. Adding half a faith and half a science doesn't change that.

I think it's intended for civs with maratime luxuries, in which case you would very much be wanting to work those tiles.

I agree the faith might be a bit low, but I like it as a concept. Making ocean tiles more appealing, particularly in the early game, is cool because I would pretty much never work them otherwise.

 

[pineappledan]

That God of Storms is really, really bad if you don't have sea resources. If you do have sea resource its much worse than God of the Sea. No one should work 2 food tiles in the early game. Adding half a faith and half a science doesn't change that.

So maybe just add 1 to cities (21 in all cities)
I'm specifically trying to make this pantheon sea focused, but still give some bonuses to all cities.

That's not what I'm objecting to, it's the removal of Syncretism. That's why I suggeted having it as it's own thing rather than a rework of an existing belief.

Bare minimum, if syncretism is going to survive in some form it needs to "hedge" itself by giving bonuses for both foreign followers in a minority and your own followers in a minority. A human player can use syncretism in ways an AI can't, and can actively annihilate their own religion for massive yields in the capital.

If you take divine inheritance or hero worship as a founder and take any faith buildings as followers, you can retain the full power of your religion with just your capital. Then you can capture another religion and spread THEIR religion into your own cities. I don't think this is intended, but Syncretism gives players a very awkward incentive to wipe their own religion out, especially if it is going to concentrate that much production into a single place.

 

[CrazyG]

So maybe just add 1 to cities (21 in all cities)
I'm specifically trying to make this pantheon sea focused, but still give some bonuses to all cities.

I think the 2 hammers 1 faith is the pantheon's primary effect at that point, and it isn't enough. 2 hammers per city doesn't change my mind about working non-production tiles. The 1 per 2 effect is just not good, it is so bad in the early game (your city won't expand to coast without resources, you'll have to buy the tiles). It doesn't actually scale well over time either, it is a very small reward to work very weak tiles. There is already a really good sea focused pantheon that does the job really well, you are trying to fill an niche that's already full.

The 1 culture per 2 grassland/plains pantheon is overall pretty bad, but you can improve the garbage tiles, and they can have resources on top, and the effect it gives to pasture is amazing. It is still overall a weak, niche pantheon that only a few civs can really use well and generally seems to unpopular or dislike by most of this forum.

 

[pineappledan]

Sounds a lot like goddess of festivals, ie. founding requires a large up-front investment so that you can use the belief for the remainder of the game. I was trying to make a pillaging pantheon, but you can’t give faith to pillaging because there aren’t enough improvements early to make that viable.

obviously, the target civs here are Carthage and Denmark. Civs with general boosts to sea tiles. 4UC Indonesia is another one. As bite mentioned, there’s a good synergy for civs with imperialism and snaky continents/island chains. The yields would far exceed the potential of god of the sea, so maybe it’s a matter of surviving?

 

[CrazyG]

Sounds a lot like goddess of festivals, ie. founding requires a large up-front investment so that you can use the belief for the remainder of the game. I was trying to make a pillaging pantheon, but you can’t give faith to pillaging because there aren’t enough improvements early to make that viable.

What do you think Goddess of Festivals does?

The better comparison is Wisdom, Sea, or Commerce. You get good yields when you settle a city. Commerce and Wisdom get a scaling effect.

Storm has a great effect in every city. It has a terrible scaling effect. It has a reasonable combat bonus (better compared to Goddess of Protection, but this has way less faith and no culture). I think overall its terrible, 2 hammers is nice but hammers are a common yield. THe rare yields like culture and science are more valuable.

 

[pineappledan]

321 on unique luxuries is really hard to found with, but can be worth trying to protect because the later yields are quite decent. I played a recent Indonesia game to test it, and you will have to pay 9+ gold to civs to get their only copy of a luxury you need. I traded a guy 14 gold for his pearls, but I managed to found at turn 104, and the deals get more fair as the map opens up and other civs improve more copies of their stuff

you really are underselling the yields on sea tiles, especially for someone going imperialism. I’ve had plenty of games with small island empires where that would have been handy. It shouldn’t be too difficult to get between 2-3 per city early, and 2 on city means faster shrines on new cities. Maybe you have to buy some early sea tiles and sacrifice some yields by locking pop ti sea tiles until you found, but lots of pantheons demand sacrifices like prioritizing techs, investing on certain buildings, or buy tiles for quick access to resources, including god of the sea.

increasing the city yield to 22 would all but guarantee founding, but if I am wrong then I think I would start there. I wouldn’t want to increase the sea yields to something like 1 per 2 tiles; I think that would scale too much in mid game, especially for people like Denmark or 4UC Indonesia

 

[CrazyG]

increasing the city yield to 22 would all but guarantee founding, but if I am wrong then I think I would start there.

I want to state clearly that I oppose adding any pantheon that gives 22 to all cities without conditions. Compare to god of commerce (which is a great pantheon), its not remotely fair.

I don't think I'm underselling the coast thing. I think your ideas are your babies and you just can't see when they have flaws. It isn't even the pantheons primary effect at this point, that instant production is much more important.

 

[Gazebo]

I think this is a great discussion, but I think it would make the most sense to add new beliefs as a modmod for a time. It will allow them to be workshopped without utterly wrecking the delicate balance of the current beliefs.

G

 

[BiteInTheMark]

321 on unique luxuries is really hard to found with, but can be worth trying to protect because the later yields are quite decent. I played a recent Indonesia game to test it, and you will have to pay 9+ gold to civs to get their only copy of a luxury you need. I traded a guy 14 gold for his pearls, but I managed to found at turn 104, and the deals get more fair as the map opens up and other civs improve more copies of their stuff

you really are underselling the yields on sea tiles, especially for someone going imperialism. I’ve had plenty of games with small island empires where that would have been handy. It shouldn’t be too difficult to get between 2-3 per city early, and 2 on city means faster shrines on new cities. Maybe you have to buy some early sea tiles and sacrifice some yields by locking pop ti sea tiles until you found, but lots of pantheons demand sacrifices like prioritizing techs, investing on certain buildings, or buy tiles for quick access to resources, including god of the sea.

increasing the city yield to 22 would all but guarantee founding, but if I am wrong then I think I would start there. I wouldn’t want to increase the sea yields to something like 1 per 2 tiles; I think that would scale too much in mid game, especially for people like Denmark or 4UC Indonesia

Festivals is a fairly weak pantheon. Makes in my eyes only sense by playing tall with Netherlands (pay gold to get luxury to get gold), Portugal (Additional luxuries by plenty of admirals) or Indonesia (3 more luxuries). With God of the open Sky you can generate similar amounts of yields and dont need any trade. Do we really need at all cost a pantheon which is only attractive to 2 or 3 civs and only after picking the Imperialism tree in the industrial age?

I think this is a great discussion, but I think it would make the most sense to add new beliefs as a modmod for a time. It will allow them to be workshopped without utterly wrecking the delicate balance of the current beliefs.

G

A little problem.... the most people see Iconography as overpowered and want this belief nerfed or split into 2 beliefs. Only adding other beliefs would let Iconography stay strong as it is now, while all other "new" beliefs would have to be adjusted to be only mediocre like others.
Have you seen here beliefs which could made it into the game into another beta version? A modmod isnt that what I would really like.

 

[Gazebo]

Festivals is a fairly weak pantheon. Makes in my eyes only sense by playing tall with Netherlands (pay gold to get luxury to get gold), Portugal (Additional luxuries by plenty of admirals) or Indonesia (3 more luxuries). With God of the open Sky you can generate similar amounts of yields and dont need any trade. Do we really need at all cost a pantheon which is only attractive to 2 or 3 civs and only after picking the Imperialism tree in the industrial age?

A little problem.... the most people see Iconography as overpowered and want this belief nerfed or split into 2 beliefs. Only adding other beliefs would let Iconography stay strong as it is now, while all other "new" beliefs would have to be adjusted to be only mediocre like others.
Have you seen here beliefs which could made it into the game into another beta version? A modmod isnt that what I would really like.

Modmod can easily edit existing beliefs.

G

 

[Stalker0]

I'm fine with the modmod for alternate beliefs, but I do think we should look at Iconography as a main balance discussion. It needs some reduction, even if we don't split it.

Festivals has its place, in fact in my current Morocco game I happened to find 6 different luxuries in close proximity (just luck of the draw), so I got a massive bonus from festivals. So it has its time and its place.