Why so few beliefs?

[Omen of Peace]

Sacral Monuments:
+3 towards Great Writer/Artist/Musician in your Holy City
National and World Wonders gain +1

Godly Inspiration:
+3 towards Great Engineer/Merchant/Scientist in your Holy City
+5 in Capital

I like these, perhaps with a +2 GPP base, and +1 per two other civ that follow your religion, up to 4.
That rewards scaling, which is a good point that PAD made.
It makes the Enhancer not give its full power right away (unless you enhance really late, you won't have converted 4 civ before), which is a good point that CrazyG made.

Prophecy (changed)
Prophets are 25% cheaper
GPTI and landmarks get +11
Holy sites get additional +444

GPTI other than Holy Sites, I assume, for line 2.

Orthodoxy (changed)
Religion spreads 20% faster and to cities 20% further away
Pressure to friendly CS doubled
Gain 1 and 1 for every 8 Followers of this Religion in Foreign Cities.

OK

Proselytismus:
Cities which are target by an own spy or trade route receive +40 religious pressure
Gain +1 trade route
+10 from the East India Company

The 1st part is great (putting together spies and TR). Not sure about the rest, but it's worth a try.

(Follower) - Reincarnation
When you expend a Great Person, gain 25GPPs of the same type in [strike]your Capital[/strike] the city, scaling with era.

I love the flavour, but the numbers will be hard to pin down. When it comes down to it, it wil be better for civ/builds for which most GP are born in the Capital (Arabia, Austria, ...)

(Follower) - Mendicancy (rework)
Internal Trade Routes generate +2 of their respective yield, scaling with Era.
+2 Production if City has a Specialist.

This needs clarification. Follower Beliefs must have an effect local to the city: does it affect TR going out of the city or coming in?
It might perhaps be exploitable by keeping this belief only in specific cities (e.g. only in the capital that boosts other cities, or only in a few other cities to boost the capital).
While it has no spreading component, I still think the current Mendicancy enhancer is nice.
I would change Inquisition before this one (like some other people here, I never take it).

Also +1 to CrazyG's ideas to make Dioceses more progressive.

 

[Stalker0]

Tourism isn't really relevant till turn 200+ at the earliest. I just can't get myself to pass up so many yields now for the tourism later.

Part of the trick here maybe to give Liturgical Language some bonus for having influence levels over opponents or something. I have wanted to see more direct benefits for influence levels, but that idea has never been popular as a general concept. However, as a single religious belief, maybe there is design space for it.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Modmod can easily edit existing beliefs.

G

Yeah, your right. I wished I had enough insight to bring in my beliefs into the game without investing too much time, cause you know... I still want to play the game and theres also that thing called real life.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Sacral Monuments:
+3 towards Great Writer/Artist/Musician in your Holy City
National and World Wonders gain +1

Godly Inspiration:
+3 towards Great Engineer/Merchant/Scientist in your Holy City
+5 in Capital

I like these, perhaps with a +2 GPP base, and +1 per two other civ that follow your religion, up to 4.

At standard size, you have 5 religions and 8 civilizations, this would mean you would have to convert also atleast 1 religion founder to get the maximum, which would be strange. But I am also for a base +2, with the option to expand to +3, if you convert atleast another one.
Only +5 in Capital from Godly Inspiration seems a bit weak for me. Maybe +111 for each Manufactory/Academy/Town? Or +1 for each Engineer/Merchant/Scientist in Capital?

Prophecy (changed)
Prophets are 25% cheaper
GPTI and landmarks get +11
Holy sites get additional +444

After Ive done some math for that belief, I really think the benefits are still too low for the investment you have to do. Spending over 50.000 to get +104836 isnt really worth outside of using it for Holy Land.
Prophecy (changed again)
Prophets are 30% cheaper
+10% resistance to conversion in each city
Yields of a tile with a holy site are doubled (From the Holy Site, the terrain and Founder/Reformation bonuses)
I know this sounds extreme, but you need a lot of time to let this enhancer work and have to spend extreme amounts of faith to get something out of it. How much yields could you have gained, if you had spend 50000 for missionaries spreading your religion?

Proselytismus:
Cities which are target by an own spy or trade route receive +40 religious pressure
Gain +1 trade route
+10 from the East India Company

The 1st part is great (putting together spies and TR). Not sure about the rest, but it's worth a try.

Maybe Pineappledan is right and there are already enough sources for additional trade routes, so, a little adjustment:
Proselytismus:
Cities which are the target by an own spy or trade route receive +30 religious pressure
Increase the yields for trade routes by 10%
+5 from the East India Company

 

[Stalker0]

Only +5 in Capital from Godly Inspiration seems a bit weak for me.

-- I think this is because you and I value that +3 GPP points differently. I think those are amazing, the GAP is just icing on the cake.

After Ive done some math for that belief, I really think the benefits are still too low for the investment you have to do. Spending over 50.000 to get +104836 isnt really worth outside of using it for Holy Land.

Prophecy (changed again)
Prophets are 30% cheaper
+10% resistance to conversion in each city
Yields of a tile with a holy site are doubled (From the Holy Site, the terrain and Founder/Reformation bonuses)
I know this sounds extreme, but you need a lot of time to let this enhancer work and have to spend extreme amounts of faith to get something out of it. How much yields could you have gained, if you had spend 50000 for missionaries spreading your religion?

--So a few wildcards in this assessment. You can use free GP for Prophets, and WC proposals can increase that further. Instead of increasing the yields further, I would go another route, how about holy sights give +2 happiness or something. That way your not constantly going "which belief gives me more of X"...by going a different yield, they can be evaluated independently. Or give the landmark/GPTI a little more so that the belief isn't so dependant on holy sites. Also, I don't think the conversion bonus is needed or really thematic here.

Maybe Pineappledan is right and there are already enough sources for additional trade routes, so, a little adjustment:
Proselytismus:
Cities which are the target by an own spy or trade route receive +30 religious pressure
Increase the yields for trade routes by 10%
+5 from the East India Company

--In general I agree with PAD on extra TRs. So if people were wanting to put an extra TR on a tech, building, or policy....I would be strongly against it. However, on a unique belief that is focused on trade, its the one place I think its reasonable. Honestly the +1 TR was what made this belief special, otherwise its just watered down an uninteresting.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

-- I think this is because you and I value that +3 GPP points differently. I think those are amazing, the GAP is just icing on the cake.

There are around 15 national wonders which would guarantee an amount of +15, plus another 10 to 20 for wonders, dependant how successful you are in wonders with the Sacral Monuments enhancer. Great Writer/Artist/Musician are also harder to gain than Engineer/Merchant/Scientist , so only +5 for Godly Inspiration looks very weak in comparison.

--So a few wildcards in this assessment. You can use free GP for Prophets, and WC proposals can increase that further. Instead of increasing the yields further, I would go another route, how about holy sights give +2 happiness or something. That way your not constantly going "which belief gives me more of X"...by going a different yield, they can be evaluated independently. Or give the landmark/GPTI a little more so that the belief isn't so dependant on holy sites. Also, I don't think the conversion bonus is needed or really thematic here.

I have already assumed 2 sources for a free prophet in pineappledans example and the last prophet has already cost 18000, the next one would cost 26280.
Lets assume you placed a holy site (+4+5+3) on a grassland tile (+2) and have picked Council of Eldars (+5) and Knowledge Through Devotion (+4+4). Prophecy would effectivly give you +8+5+3+9+2 for the possible cost of 26280. How many writer or scientists could you affort with that faith and use them for their instant yields? The conversion bonus is only a replacement for the yields for GPTI and landmarks, cause I thought, It might be too much, but looking at the numbers I think, its note even enough in comparison with the cost you would have to pay.

An other solution would be to make it grow exponentially so you get better back your yields from the holy sites:
Prophecy (experimental)
Prophets are 30% cheaper
+3 to each holy site and landmark and additional +1 to holy sites for every holy site you have placed with own prophets, capped at 8

Unless you are India or Byzanz, most players will not construct more than 12 holy sites, making each holy site generating additional +11+8+11+3, in total 1329613236 for the potential cost of around 90.000.
Those numbers look big, but dont forget that this amount of holy sites need a lot of time to get online and a gigantic amount of faith. If this setup would run for another 150 turns, it would be fairly enough to give you 1 more social policy in the late game. I think spending that faith for writer/artists/musician would give you more.

 

[JamesNinelives]

Bare minimum, if syncretism is going to survive in some form it needs to "hedge" itself by giving bonuses for both foreign followers in a minority and your own followers in a minority. A human player can use syncretism in ways an AI can't, and can actively annihilate their own religion for massive yields in the capital.

If you take divine inheritance or hero worship as a founder and take any faith buildings as followers, you can retain the full power of your religion with just your capital. Then you can capture another religion and spread THEIR religion into your own cities. I don't think this is intended, but Syncretism gives players a very awkward incentive to wipe their own religion out, especially if it is going to concentrate that much production into a single place.

Then change the mechanism but keep the theme. I don't care what it does so much that I hate not being able to found a religion without being a tyrant or dicking over my neighbours. Syncretism is the best enhancer in that regard. Most of the others seem to scream 'I'm the best, and everyone needs to either worship my religion or let my conquer them' to me. I just want to do my own thing in peace.

Mendicancy exists, which is pretty neutral, but I don't really see how that practise helps my people. And Universalism exists but relies on me proselytizing which, lets be real, literally nobody likes happening to them IRL. Religion should be able to have a purpose other than just making more people religious.

 

[pineappledan]

Then change the mechanism but keep the theme. I don't care what it does so much that I hate not being able to found a religion without being a tyrant or dicking over my neighbours. Syncretism is the best enhancer in that regard. Most of the others seem to scream 'I'm the best, and everyone needs to either worship my religion or let my conquer them' to me. I just want to do my own thing in peace.

Mendicancy exists, which is pretty neutral, but I don't really see how that practise helps my people. And Universalism exists but relies on me proselytizing which, lets be real, literally nobody likes happening to them IRL. Religion should be able to have a purpose other than just making more people religious.

So to be clear, your only complaint with my Devshirme/jizya proposal is the military bonus and maybe the name? The jizya formed the main tax base for the early Islamic empire. Conversion was actively discouraged.

gold for non-believers seems obvious, but we can think of a different bonus for followers in non-majority cities. A militaristic bonus seemed the most obvious fit because, like it or not, the current syncretism is overtly a militaristic enhancer.

 

[Stalker0]

There are around 15 national wonders which would guarantee an amount of +15, plus another 10 to 20 for wonders, dependant how successful you are in wonders with the Sacral Monuments enhancer. Great Writer/Artist/Musician are also harder to gain than Engineer/Merchant/Scientist , so only +5 for Godly Inspiration looks very weak in comparison.

I have already assumed 2 sources for a free prophet in pineappledans example and the last prophet has already cost 18000, the next one would cost 26280.
Lets assume you placed a holy site (+4+5+3) on a grassland tile (+2) and have picked Council of Eldars (+5) and Knowledge Through Devotion (+4+4). Prophecy would effectivly give you +8+5+3+9+2 for the possible cost of 26280. How many writer or scientists could you affort with that faith and use them for their instant yields? The conversion bonus is only a replacement for the yields for GPTI and landmarks, cause I thought, It might be too much, but looking at the numbers I think, its note even enough in comparison with the cost you would have to pay.

An other solution would be to make it grow exponentially so you get better back your yields from the holy sites:
Prophecy (experimental)
Prophets are 30% cheaper
+3 to each holy site and landmark and additional +1 to holy sites for every holy site you have placed with own prophets, capped at 8

Unless you are India or Byzanz, most players will not construct more than 12 holy sites, making each holy site generating additional +11+8+11+3, in total 1329613236 for the potential cost of around 90.000.
Those numbers look big, but dont forget that this amount of holy sites need a lot of time to get online and a gigantic amount of faith. If this setup would run for another 150 turns, it would be fairly enough to give you 1 more social policy in the late game. I think spending that faith for writer/artists/musician would give you more.

Ok, you make some good points here. Maybe I just see the tile porn and think "man that's a lot of yields....but ultimately it is quite a cost to get".

Its true that writers and such are harder to get. On the flip side, you could argue that scientist improvements are a lot stronger than a great work for many playstyles.

 

[JamesNinelives]

So to be clear, your only complaint with my Devshirme/jizya proposal is the military bonus and maybe the name? The jizya formed the main tax base for the early Islamic empire. Conversion was actively discouraged.

I don't care about your Devshirme/Jizka proposol. You can do whatever you like with that. My objection was you replacing Syncretism.

Edit: to be clear, I'm very happy for other people to play however they like. In a world that includes both Montezuma and Gandhi that makes total sense to me.

 

[CrazyG]

Then change the mechanism but keep the theme. I don't care what it does so much that I hate not being able to found a religion without being a tyrant or dicking over my neighbours. Syncretism is the best enhancer in that regard. Most of the others seem to scream 'I'm the best, and everyone needs to either worship my religion or let my conquer them' to me. I just want to do my own thing in peace.

Mendicancy exists, which is pretty neutral, but I don't really see how that practise helps my people. And Universalism exists but relies on me proselytizing which, lets be real, literally nobody likes happening to them IRL. Religion should be able to have a purpose other than just making more people religious.

Dioceses, Mendicancy, and Iconography are all good for someone who doesn't want to spread. I think they are generally a lot better than syncretism here. Defensive zealotry isn't too bad either.

Unless you are India or Byzanz, most players will not construct more than 12 holy sites, making each holy site generating additional +11+8+11+3, in total 1329613236 for the potential cost of around 90.000.

Maybe we should take a poll, I think most players don't build anywhere near 12 holy sites most games. 4 is high end for me.

 

[JamesNinelives]

Dioceses, Mendicancy, and Iconography are all good for someone who doesn't want to spread. I think they are generally a lot better than syncretism here. Defensive zealotry isn't too bad either.

Zealotry is exactly what I don't want from my religions. It's not really about not wanting to spread my religion (I do!), it's about the way that it's done. Take Gandhi for example, the whole point of the India UA is that it's passive spread rather than missionaries knocking on your doors.

Maybe we should take a poll, I think most players don't build anywhere near 12 holy sites most games. 4 is high end for me.

I totally agree. If I go Prophecy or play India I can have more, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Stalker0]

I totally agree. If I go Prophecy or play India I can have more, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

Well the key is...we are going prophecy in this example. With prophecy I generally can get 6.

 

[JamesNinelives]

Well the key is...we are going prophecy in this example. With prophecy I generally can get 6.

That's fair. Sorry, I missed that point. And yes, 6 seems reasonable.

 

[CrazyG]

Take Ghandi for example, the whole point of the India UA is that it's passive spread rather than missionaries knocking on your doors.

Orthodoxy then? I think you have a lot of options even without syncretism available.

Well the key is...we are going prophecy in this example. With prophecy I generally can get 6.

That sounds about right, but it is still a lot less than 12.

 

[pineappledan]

I was suggesting to replace syncretism because it can be exploited. The only reason I was looking at using a similar mechanic is because the existing belief is ripe for abuse. If this is about getting more passive spread beliefs, I also proposed one that focuses on TR religious pressure

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Well the key is...we are going prophecy in this example. With prophecy I generally can get 6.

That one game with India I placed 15, and it could have been more if I had finished it.
If this was effective, that's an other question.

 

[JamesNinelives]

Orthodoxy then? I think you have a lot of options even without syncretism available.

That sounds about right, but it is still a lot less than 12.

I'm not saying there aren't other options, simply that I liked Syncretism a lot more than the others. My second pick has generally been Prophecy because it increases the yields of my tiles (which I like) and thematically is about storytelling (which I love). Orthodoxy for example, exemplifies a strict adherence to rules, which doesn't really appeal to me.

What I don't really get is why the enhancers (and reformations) seem so limited thematically. In other areas there seems a good balance of things - with pantheons there is Goddess of Love, Goddess of Nature, Goddess of Restoration, in normal beliefs there is Co-operation and Inspiration, Pagodas, Mandirs. Even in Founders, you have Way of Transcendance, which has a Garden of all things as it's holy building (exactly what I'm looking for). A lot of things that fit with a more peaceful, forgiving, and tolerant belief system.

I like to think it's possible for religion to exist without it feeding prejudice, discrimination, and intolerance or an ethic of control and dominance. I know that's partly because it's a representation of what exists in history. But it would be nice to see more representation of things that fit more with Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, or Sihkism. Or Manaism, Shinto, or Native American or Australian Aboriginal beliefs. I would love an enhancer that is about non-violence, helping others, or diversity. Or something about nature, plants or animals. Or trade or diplomacy, art or culture. It would also be really nice to have less focus on Monotheism and more from polytheism or pantheism.

If you want me to give some examples of what that could look like, I can do that. There's a lot of people already sharing good ideas though, I didn't want to get in anyone's way. Here's the kind of thing that I mean:

Enhancers

Meditation
+1 happiness per city
+5% production of great people in cities following this religion

Karma
+ 4 culture/turn for each external trade route
+ 4 gold/turn for each declaration of friendship
+ 2 food, +2 production in each city following this religion

Vision Quests
+ 12 culture, +12 faith when a citizen is born in the city (scales with era)

Animism
+1 faith from camps
+1 culture from plantations
+1 science from fishing boats
+2 food from forests and jungles
+2 production from lakes and marshes

Dreamtime
Expending a Great Writer, Artist, or Musician grants +100 faith, scaling with era.

Dualism
Specialists require 1 less food
+1 science per 2 non-specialists
Internal trade routes give 50 culture on completion
External trade routes give 50 production in the holy city upon completion
+ 1 gold in each city following this religion
Holy city gives +1 faith per two owned cities following this religion

Reformation

Zen
+20 xp to all new military units
-1 unhappiness from boredom and religious unrest in each city
Gardens produce +2 faith, +2 culture
+6 global happiness

I'm not very good at balance, so I welcome feedback on all of these. It's mainly to show the kind of concepts that I would like to see more of.

 

[CrazyG]

I like these suggestions, enhancer and reformation beliefs are a little heavy on Western concepts.

Dreamtime
Expending a Great Writer, Artist, or Musician grants +100 faith, scaling with era.

This actually used to be a belief with a different name (but it was for all types of great people, not just the art ones). Personally I'd really like to see enhancers become more like this and less powerful in general, as religion is just so strong at the moment and historically plenty of successful civilizations were not the birthplace of a religion.

I think there would be a lot more design space if they were slowed down. I'm looking at Dioceses in particular, 10 culture and faith immediately upon enhancing is hard to pass up. Prophecy is a good belief in a lot of conditions, but it ends up pretty similar to Dioceses except slower. Iconography too, but that's a dead horse at this point. I really like prophecy design-wise, it is potentially powerful but slow, requires investment, and is best with specific strategies. It encourages you to do something you otherwise might not.

I enjoy beliefs that give you yields with a condition (like prophecy) rather than just for doing something you always do (like having a capital, Dioceses) or spreading your religion to your own cities.

For example you could attach yields to the grand temple or other buildings, instead of just giving it to a city. For example, I would much prefer if the current mendicancy gave culture/faith to temples, not to cities. This slows down snowballing strategies, such as Maya or India who can enhance very, very early.

I don't personally like enhancer beliefs buffing resources/improvements, that seems more like pantheon or follower belief territory to me.

I find that enhancers can produce a large amount of faith without too many issues, but if they provide a lot of other yields, especially culture or science, they make it hard for civs who don't lead religions to compete.

 

[pineappledan]

Orthodoxy for example, exemplifies a strict adherence to rules, which doesn't really appeal to me.

I have proposed renaming orthodoxy to Ecumenism, a much more 'constructive' religious concept. Besides that one, none of the other beliefs I have proposed are even vaguely Christian. The reality of using a Western Germanic language is that a lot of religious concepts are filtered through the history of their use in Christianity, unless they are concepts that Christianity rejects outright. There is no reason why ecumenism or orthodoxy should be perceived as Christian, but they are.

That having been said, Crusader Spirit and Jesuit Education are both beliefs that can be easily renamed to something less specifically Christian.
Jesuit education => Catechesis. Crusader Spirit => Holy War

I know that's partly because it's a representation of what exists in history. But it would be nice to see more representation of things that fit more with Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, or Sihkism. Or Manaism, Shinto, or Native American or Australian Aboriginal beliefs.

Having identifiably Hindu/Shamanistic/Midewiwin/Orenda/Zoroastrian/Muslim/Taoist/etc beliefs has never been the goal outside of the religious buildings, it's always been about finding more general concepts that can be found in several religions. If those pan-religious concepts strike your ear as Christian, then see above.

What I don't really get is why the enhancers (and reformations) seem so limited thematically.

But it would be nice to see more representation of things that fit more with Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, or Sihkism. Or Manaism, Shinto, or Native American or Australian Aboriginal beliefs. I would love an enhancer that is about non-violence, helping others, or diversity.[...] It would also be really nice to have less focus on Monotheism and more from polytheism or pantheism.

Responding to this in detail is going to make me sounds like an edgelord, so I won't. Perhaps I am misinterpreting your comment because you put them in sequential sentences, but you are insinuating that violence, domination and control are uniquely Abrahamic/Christian in character, and that toleration and pacifism are somehow more present in non-Christian belief systems. Just... No.**

As for monotheism being easier to import, the mechanics of the game make more sense if you think of them in monotheistic terms.

• You start with a pantheon fairly early on, and everyone gets access to One. Civ's pantheon system maps well onto henotheism/monolatrism, so the polytheist aspect is shown in the belief selection, but ultimately your civ must choose 1 god(dess) to enshrine.
• You have 1 Prophet born and he founds your religion. A single prophet to multiple gods is a very rare occurrence and, bordering on being an analytical statement on the level of "all bachelors are unmarried". A prophet exists to deliver a (singular) message from a (singular) god to the masses, irrespective of the existence of other gods.
• Organized religions tend towards monotheism because monotheism provides the basis for a single code of belief (ie. orthodoxy). If you have multiple gods then you have the basis for multiple doctrines, and the game isn't built to accommodate that. Even Hinduism, as it would exist in a game like Civ, would inevitably bend towards a more kathenotheistic representation focusing on the trimurti, and maybe even the quasi-monotheistic concept of Brahman.
• There's also the reality that if you design the religion system this way, you kill the most birds with a single stone. Monotheism is a core feature of Abrahamic religions/Sikhism/Zoroastrianism, and only needs a little flexing to graft onto certain schools of Hinduism and Taoism. Combined, roughly 67% of the world's population that ascribes to any religion is monotheistic

Given the mechanics we have and how much of a mutilation a deliberate attempt to graft specifically polytheistic systems onto it would be, it might be actively disrespectful to try.

**Unless we're talking about Jainism. Jains are dope as hell