ApocalypseKurtz
Man, myth, legend
On the topic of the UN Wonder, how exactly does the voting work after it is built?
Is it like in Alpha Centauri?
Is it like in Alpha Centauri?
Wich are the best wonders?
- Thread starter AugustoD
- Start date
I have to vote for the Lighthouse because it's such an advantage on bigger maps to be able to move units by tireme, (boat) across ocen squares. I always get a big lead in world exploration and that results in my getting more than my share of strategic resources.
I'm also a big fan of the early wonders that don't expire. I never built SunTsu in Civ 2 because it didn't help me much but I was forced to build it in my current game when another Civ built the Wonder I wanted. So far it's been great! I'm presently able to crank out Infantry from any of my cities and move them on my railroads directly to the city where I'm marshalling my attack.
It's allowing me to respond instantly with a trained military force without having to maintain a large standing army and I can upgrade my units without bothering with shifting them in and out of a specific city.
I'm also a big fan of the early wonders that don't expire. I never built SunTsu in Civ 2 because it didn't help me much but I was forced to build it in my current game when another Civ built the Wonder I wanted. So far it's been great! I'm presently able to crank out Infantry from any of my cities and move them on my railroads directly to the city where I'm marshalling my attack.
It's allowing me to respond instantly with a trained military force without having to maintain a large standing army and I can upgrade my units without bothering with shifting them in and out of a specific city.
Easy Rhino
Chieftain
In the only game I've been able to play so far, I realize I've been underrating the Colossus. I rushed it with my first and only leader because it was the only wonder available at the time.
But man, that thing LASTS FOREVER (well, flight is a long time away). And it's a coastal city, with lots of rivers, and silk, and grassland, and it's just generating gobs of cash.
My size 12 city with Colossus is producing almost the same science as my size 12 city with Newtons.
Looking forward to Hoover.
ER
But man, that thing LASTS FOREVER (well, flight is a long time away). And it's a coastal city, with lots of rivers, and silk, and grassland, and it's just generating gobs of cash.
My size 12 city with Colossus is producing almost the same science as my size 12 city with Newtons.
Looking forward to Hoover.
ER
Sirigor82
Chieftain
If you are playing on a continent, then don't forget to build the Pyramids. They are a must have because you don't want to waste your time, shields and money building the granaries in every city. Granaries are important and boost your population growth, so build a Pyramid in a city which is prducing the most shields and do it early in the game before anyone else builds it!
Just as important to have is Bach Wonder, because this allows you to play the game efficiently under Democracy and Republic without having to worry about keeping your people content or happy. This reduces the pressure on your commerce and your entertainers. Forget the Great Library becuse it's waste of time. I you are advanced enough and you want some other advance that someone has and you don't, trade with them or espionage. But the better strategy is to get fr ahead of them early and not worry about it.
Just as important to have is Bach Wonder, because this allows you to play the game efficiently under Democracy and Republic without having to worry about keeping your people content or happy. This reduces the pressure on your commerce and your entertainers. Forget the Great Library becuse it's waste of time. I you are advanced enough and you want some other advance that someone has and you don't, trade with them or espionage. But the better strategy is to get fr ahead of them early and not worry about it.
Agni Neres
Master of RiverSerpent
Now imagine the science you'd be getting if you had put Newton in the same city as the Colossus
One of the oldest and best 'tricks' still available!
Nelson Minar
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2001
- Messages
- 49
The most important wonder in the game is Forbidden Palace. Corruption is such a problem, Forbidden Palace is the best way to fight it. Balance it against your capitol - you want your empire to look like the figure 8, with capitol in one center, forbidden palace in the other.
The next best wonder is whatever I can get from an AI by conquering its cities.
The next best wonder is whatever I can get from an AI by conquering its cities.
Easy Rhino
Chieftain
Originally posted by Agni Neres
Now imagine the science you'd be getting if you had put Newton in the same city as the Colossus
doh. that would have been nice. But at the time I built it, I didn't actually know what the colossus did. I just wanted my first wonder.
And that cities doesn't build too well, so I shoulda built it in the town that would later have newton in it
ER
Daaraa
King
In my game right now
1 Forbidden Palace (I'm in a N. S. America type continent Capitol is in middle of S.A. and Forbidden is in middle of N.A. Before I built Forbidden, N.A. was almost useless.)
2 Leo's Workshop (Great upgrading things for cheap)
3 Hoovers Dam (Sold all my coal plants after I built it and raised my income by 300 per turn. And I got it in cites right after factory.)
Honourable Mentions go to Sun Tzu's, Women's Suffrage, Sistine, Js Bachs (both for Civ 2 reasons) and Pentagon (That forth unit in an army can be great)
1 Forbidden Palace (I'm in a N. S. America type continent Capitol is in middle of S.A. and Forbidden is in middle of N.A. Before I built Forbidden, N.A. was almost useless.)
2 Leo's Workshop (Great upgrading things for cheap)
3 Hoovers Dam (Sold all my coal plants after I built it and raised my income by 300 per turn. And I got it in cites right after factory.)
Honourable Mentions go to Sun Tzu's, Women's Suffrage, Sistine, Js Bachs (both for Civ 2 reasons) and Pentagon (That forth unit in an army can be great)
K
knowltok
Guest
I've heard it said that LEo's isn't that good anymore. Depending on your situation, it can be cheaper to just build the new units and disband the old. Also, I think I noticed that my elite upgrades only went to veterans. I'm not saying that Leo's is worthless, but I think there are others that are better. Sun Tzu for instance will allow you to upgrade in every city, which can be critical for your outpost units.
DavesWorld
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2001
- Messages
- 39
Echoing many other comments; there is no "best", only those wonders that fit your play personality and play style. What is the "crucial, throw your hands up in the air and restart if you miss it" for one is the "yeah right only if I HAVE to build it because they beat me to something good" wonder for another.
I play generally isolationist and diplomatic, but carry a huge stick to hammer into little pieces any civs that mess with me. I prefer to play in Democratic or Republic (latter only if I'm in a long war and need relief from the war weariness compared to Democratic).
1) Universal Sufferage - haven't got it fully mapped out yet, but basically without this wonder I have little flexibility in my government choices in response to foreign civ's Imperial Aggressions. Without this, other Civs can literally threaten my civ's entire way of life by simply attacking us strongly and aggressively; no UniSuff means my civ has a harder time thumping on them without downshifting away from the joys of Democracy. Changing out of Democracy hinders the entire civilization, particularly in Commerce.
2) Hoover Dam - I emphasize production very strongly, to reduce the number of turns to develop cities and construct units. A free hydro plant for every city on the continent is valuable to me, particularly if the continent is big. The effects when I bring up new or captured cities are quite useful; rush build temple, courthouse, factory; suddenly that city, even if small, is cranking out a nice sum of shields per turn, and is able to develop itself the rest of the way with minimal direct attention (just fill the production queue and leave it alone for a while).
3) Adam Smith's - Someone above pointed out the advantages pretty well I thought. Free maintenance for commerce buildings; this is almost like a two-for-one Wonder. You not only save upkeep on Marketplaces, Banks, Harbors, and Airports, but also get the multiplier effects of the first two for free. Applied to a large civilization, the per-turn savings of this wonder are impressive. Reduction in per-turn costs allows a higher safe percentage of Commerce to be diverted into Science.
4) Sistine Chapel & JS Bach's - score is directly affected by happy and content people. Further, only those two types of PopPoints will work the map for you. These wonders directly affect the productivity of your civ thoughout the ages, and particularly when you get extremely large. They are free luxuries, and provide culture too.
Other strong and useful Wonders for my strategy include:
Leonardo's Workshop - upgrade costs stack up quickly unless you routinely suicide your old units and construct fresh; I tend to have the same ancient-times unit that started as a spearman upgraded all the way through to MechInfantry in my games, so for that reason alone Leo's will save me serious cash. When you consider a war of conquest with tanks when you research for Modern Armor, or upgrading from Cannon->Artillery->RadarArtillery, Leo's could easily, at a conservative estimate, save three or four thousand gold in a large or huge map game.
Copernicus' Observatory/Newton's University/Seti Institute - I prefer to build these in my capital (zero corruption at ground zero), and to stack them one atop the other. I am strongly considering in a future game building one in the capital and the other two in the two immediately adjacent cities, to see how that spreads the bonuses out. These are *better* than TheoryEvolution because the effects are turn-to-turn, and over a sufficient number of turns the effects outpace those of a mere two free advances.
Theory of Evolution - nice if you can land it. If you're set up 'properly', before you researched up to this wonder you should have been at 4 turns/research for a while. If so, building this wonder allows you to convert production turns in a single city into a free 8turn jump in the Science race. Not so bad ,honestly. Particularly since its so difficult to get lower than 4 turns per advance.
I would call the above the truly useful Wonders. Longevity and Cure for Cancer are useful late wonders, but by the time they tend to appear in my CivIII games to-date I have things pretty much sewn up. They end up being icing not cake; the others listed above are cake. Longevity is rather nice for that final hammer-and-nail down on the accelerator as you get tightened up for slamming down the final score stretch; and by this point you should have graneries in all cities to take full advantage of end-game PopPoint increases.
I like Pyramids, but I rarely have the turns to spare that early to lock one city down for that long; if I get Pyramids I end up missing the early improvements that came available while the city was building the wonder. Colossus is my favorite Ancient wonder, especially if it can be placed in your coastal capital, or an immediately adjacent coastal city. But honestly, I often am very busy putting turns into building city improvements in the Ancient era, and thus tend to miss all the Ancient wonders. Great Lighthouse can be the reason you win on some maps, by allowing you to reach expansions no other civs can reach; and can also allow you to explore and open up contact across the world at a time when other civs have zero ability to do so.
As for the Medieval wonders, SunZu's is nice but not so cruical; even with a large continent covered in cities you're not saving all that much per turn by having free barracks. For properly developed cities you only save three or four turns per city by having the Wonder; and that, IMO ,balances against the time the wonder building city spent creating the wonder. Most times this wonder will have a 20-30 turn build time; I just dislike how the math works out. Magellan's is nice but since naval movement rates are basically a joke anyway I tend to stick to land based armies. Great Wall - I *never* build walls, so why would I want to build this wonder?
I play generally isolationist and diplomatic, but carry a huge stick to hammer into little pieces any civs that mess with me. I prefer to play in Democratic or Republic (latter only if I'm in a long war and need relief from the war weariness compared to Democratic).
1) Universal Sufferage - haven't got it fully mapped out yet, but basically without this wonder I have little flexibility in my government choices in response to foreign civ's Imperial Aggressions. Without this, other Civs can literally threaten my civ's entire way of life by simply attacking us strongly and aggressively; no UniSuff means my civ has a harder time thumping on them without downshifting away from the joys of Democracy. Changing out of Democracy hinders the entire civilization, particularly in Commerce.
2) Hoover Dam - I emphasize production very strongly, to reduce the number of turns to develop cities and construct units. A free hydro plant for every city on the continent is valuable to me, particularly if the continent is big. The effects when I bring up new or captured cities are quite useful; rush build temple, courthouse, factory; suddenly that city, even if small, is cranking out a nice sum of shields per turn, and is able to develop itself the rest of the way with minimal direct attention (just fill the production queue and leave it alone for a while).
3) Adam Smith's - Someone above pointed out the advantages pretty well I thought. Free maintenance for commerce buildings; this is almost like a two-for-one Wonder. You not only save upkeep on Marketplaces, Banks, Harbors, and Airports, but also get the multiplier effects of the first two for free. Applied to a large civilization, the per-turn savings of this wonder are impressive. Reduction in per-turn costs allows a higher safe percentage of Commerce to be diverted into Science.
4) Sistine Chapel & JS Bach's - score is directly affected by happy and content people. Further, only those two types of PopPoints will work the map for you. These wonders directly affect the productivity of your civ thoughout the ages, and particularly when you get extremely large. They are free luxuries, and provide culture too.
Other strong and useful Wonders for my strategy include:
Leonardo's Workshop - upgrade costs stack up quickly unless you routinely suicide your old units and construct fresh; I tend to have the same ancient-times unit that started as a spearman upgraded all the way through to MechInfantry in my games, so for that reason alone Leo's will save me serious cash. When you consider a war of conquest with tanks when you research for Modern Armor, or upgrading from Cannon->Artillery->RadarArtillery, Leo's could easily, at a conservative estimate, save three or four thousand gold in a large or huge map game.
Copernicus' Observatory/Newton's University/Seti Institute - I prefer to build these in my capital (zero corruption at ground zero), and to stack them one atop the other. I am strongly considering in a future game building one in the capital and the other two in the two immediately adjacent cities, to see how that spreads the bonuses out. These are *better* than TheoryEvolution because the effects are turn-to-turn, and over a sufficient number of turns the effects outpace those of a mere two free advances.
Theory of Evolution - nice if you can land it. If you're set up 'properly', before you researched up to this wonder you should have been at 4 turns/research for a while. If so, building this wonder allows you to convert production turns in a single city into a free 8turn jump in the Science race. Not so bad ,honestly. Particularly since its so difficult to get lower than 4 turns per advance.
I would call the above the truly useful Wonders. Longevity and Cure for Cancer are useful late wonders, but by the time they tend to appear in my CivIII games to-date I have things pretty much sewn up. They end up being icing not cake; the others listed above are cake. Longevity is rather nice for that final hammer-and-nail down on the accelerator as you get tightened up for slamming down the final score stretch; and by this point you should have graneries in all cities to take full advantage of end-game PopPoint increases.
I like Pyramids, but I rarely have the turns to spare that early to lock one city down for that long; if I get Pyramids I end up missing the early improvements that came available while the city was building the wonder. Colossus is my favorite Ancient wonder, especially if it can be placed in your coastal capital, or an immediately adjacent coastal city. But honestly, I often am very busy putting turns into building city improvements in the Ancient era, and thus tend to miss all the Ancient wonders. Great Lighthouse can be the reason you win on some maps, by allowing you to reach expansions no other civs can reach; and can also allow you to explore and open up contact across the world at a time when other civs have zero ability to do so.
As for the Medieval wonders, SunZu's is nice but not so cruical; even with a large continent covered in cities you're not saving all that much per turn by having free barracks. For properly developed cities you only save three or four turns per city by having the Wonder; and that, IMO ,balances against the time the wonder building city spent creating the wonder. Most times this wonder will have a 20-30 turn build time; I just dislike how the math works out. Magellan's is nice but since naval movement rates are basically a joke anyway I tend to stick to land based armies. Great Wall - I *never* build walls, so why would I want to build this wonder?
Sam_Catchem
Prince
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2001
- Messages
- 350
What I have found that is really cool is Sun Tzu's/Leonardo's combo platter. Sweet! A barracks in every city to do the cheap upgrades..very cool.
DavesWorld
Chieftain
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2001
- Messages
- 39
Nik,
I don't play vs humans, don't find it enjoyable at *all*. Playing against AI is ... relaxing. Playing against humans makes me want to throttle them with their mouse cords; humans do irritating crap just to do it, because its good tactics and such. I also don't think the gameplay of Civ lends itself all that well to *fun* multiplayer either; basically Civ is fun when you're winning or are comptitive. Most every human strategy I know of revolves around crushing and owning your opponent; fun if you're crushing and owning, not so fun if you're the one stuck.
Here's one example of why I will *never* play multiplayer CivIII; Strategic Resources. A human player will *never* trade you oil if you're missing it and they have extra. They would combine the non-trade with an offensive based around oil units (like Tanks, for example); since you would rightly be weak and vulnerable by your limitating to pre-oil units. I have a hard time conceiving of many circumstances where a pre-oil Civ would be able to resist, and counter-attack against, an oil-based Aggressor doing a full civ-wide attack.
That's totally sound tactics, and is so not what I'm looking for in a game of Civ. I play for relaxation and to stretch my strategic mind ... humans offer better strategy but they also offer much higher bloodpressure. Bottom line.
I understand many hardcore MPers will read this and shake their heads sadly, probably muttering something about care-bears and cowards. That's fine; when I play MMORGs I play on "red" servers; I can sow my oats there and then retire to my idea of solo fun with games like Civ. I don't have to slam my piece on the table everywhere I go.
I don't play vs humans, don't find it enjoyable at *all*. Playing against AI is ... relaxing. Playing against humans makes me want to throttle them with their mouse cords; humans do irritating crap just to do it, because its good tactics and such. I also don't think the gameplay of Civ lends itself all that well to *fun* multiplayer either; basically Civ is fun when you're winning or are comptitive. Most every human strategy I know of revolves around crushing and owning your opponent; fun if you're crushing and owning, not so fun if you're the one stuck.
Here's one example of why I will *never* play multiplayer CivIII; Strategic Resources. A human player will *never* trade you oil if you're missing it and they have extra. They would combine the non-trade with an offensive based around oil units (like Tanks, for example); since you would rightly be weak and vulnerable by your limitating to pre-oil units. I have a hard time conceiving of many circumstances where a pre-oil Civ would be able to resist, and counter-attack against, an oil-based Aggressor doing a full civ-wide attack.
That's totally sound tactics, and is so not what I'm looking for in a game of Civ. I play for relaxation and to stretch my strategic mind ... humans offer better strategy but they also offer much higher bloodpressure. Bottom line.
I understand many hardcore MPers will read this and shake their heads sadly, probably muttering something about care-bears and cowards. That's fine; when I play MMORGs I play on "red" servers; I can sow my oats there and then retire to my idea of solo fun with games like Civ. I don't have to slam my piece on the table everywhere I go.
Gholam
Chieftain
You guys are overlooking a major advantage of Sun Tzu's: indestructible barracks. When someone builds Sun Tzu's, their cities must be taken in one turn, or they won't be taken at all, because they'll keep healing up to full health every turn, and unlike conventional barracks, you can't destroy the free ones with artillery/bombings. If I'm planning on warmongering, I try my hardest to get Sun Tzu's first, and if I fail, I start the war by attacking the city with Sun Tzu's with an overwhelming force.
Here's something I noticed about the lighthouse that turned out to be a major advantage to me in the ancient and early renaissance ages. I couldn't connect my cities on other continents to my trade network, because they had sea and ocean squares between us. Never mind that there were never more than 3, and I could safely navigate my galleys over there to drop settlers and defenders. I built harbors, and wondered why my luxuries didn't transfer. Plus, I couldn't trade resources or luxuries with other civs that were on other continents.
Then I conquored the city with the lighthouse and suddenly my unhappiness problems disappeared. One harbor and roads on each settled island, and I was connected up.
This is only an advantage before you get Astronomy or Magnetism, but it was a major bonus in the first Game of the Month.
Then I conquored the city with the lighthouse and suddenly my unhappiness problems disappeared. One harbor and roads on each settled island, and I was connected up.
This is only an advantage before you get Astronomy or Magnetism, but it was a major bonus in the first Game of the Month.
Sultan Bhargash
Trickster Reincarnated
Sun Tzu can be huge if you are an expansion prone warliker. I never build barracks outside my capital or granaries, expecting to get pyramids and sun tzu. I miss Leonardo's automatic upgrades. Hoover Dam is still huge. If you are still waiting for a culture victory, as I am, then any of the arty farty ones would be nice.
K
knowltok
Guest
While what you say would seem to be true, it is just one more thing that you need to keep in mind in your strategy. You've got to be ready to sail off and take that oil the second you discover it with your current units. If you are current in the tech, you will discover oil at the same time as everyone else, and should be able to take a source before another player establishes dominance from having oil.
Dave, while I agree human opponents can sometimes be irritating 'just to irritate', if you find some decent players, there is nothing comparable to that experienced that the AI can provide. You dont have to resort to cheats and exploits to overcome production bonuses, everyone is on equal ground and the best player wins. Multiplayer is by far the best way to play. I remember some of my most fun civ games where when I was playing civ2 Gold for a couple months straight.
robinm
Chieftain
UN , cos you can often just loose outright if someone else gets it.
The Message "X has started work on the United nations" should provoke the response "initiate unlimted nuclear war on X".
FOr theothers , many depend heavily on map and playstyle.
If you like limit military expnasion then the "free" city improvements ( Pyramids, Sun Tsu , Hoover") give a new city you conquer some free upgrade headstart. In a flowing give and take, closely fought terrirory war the idea that a city under your control always has a barracks , but a city the enemy has just taken never has one is very nice.
On big worlds or empty maps then you will have more cities , so the city specific wonders weaken (colussus, newton, copernicus, shakespear) and the global effect wonders get much stronger. The happiness wonders all help if you plan to go democracy and go for a tech / culture rush.
If you want a 100000 culture win then the older wonders are better ( esp Library) purely for the huge culture they give.
If you are going for 20000 culture win then you've got to find ways of putting many of the 6 and 5 culture wonders in one town.
If you plan a 0 science pope type gaome where you buy tech from the tech leader and sell it to the others then who cares about the science wonders.
If you're on pangea who cares about the seafaring wonders.
If you're on archipelago who caresa bout the continent wide wonders.
If you're on Deity how do you ever expect the time to build your own wonders anyway, you take what you can conquer.
A few trick wonder combos exist....
the well known colussuss + newton + copernicus all in the same coastal city is devastating on smaller maps.
A lucky iron works then build any wonder you can ( +100% shields and iron and coal all in the same city makes for a production monster )
Leonardoes + Sun Tzu means you just get a tech adavacnce giving a new unit ( eg NAtionalism ) , unzip one rifleman and hit SHIFT U , and all your riflemen turn into infantry ....
Shakespear ..... many people slam this one.... picture this.
You've gone to war to take a particlaur enemy city, bdcaue it has a resource you want or want to deny.
You bombard them back to the stome age then finally take the city with offensive units. Its a mess . ITs full of dead people and pissed off people and even the local bar has been hit by artillery fire. But you want to keep it. Luckiy you have shakespear available and a great leader just happend to appear in the figh that won the city.......
You guessed it , made instant shakespear, everyone cheers up mighty quick, and you get to drive a big culture wedge into the enemy territory
MAnhattan ... ? gives everyone nukes... why bother unless you have nothing better to build or such a huge tech lead ( that you are not selling) that you can build it , then a nuclear arsenal then manage to actually use it before anyone else gets nukes.
The high tech wonders ( Cure for cancer , longlife , and SETI ) are only good it you are already winning and trying to polish the highest possible score , more happy citizens and more future tech.
The Message "X has started work on the United nations" should provoke the response "initiate unlimted nuclear war on X".
FOr theothers , many depend heavily on map and playstyle.
If you like limit military expnasion then the "free" city improvements ( Pyramids, Sun Tsu , Hoover") give a new city you conquer some free upgrade headstart. In a flowing give and take, closely fought terrirory war the idea that a city under your control always has a barracks , but a city the enemy has just taken never has one is very nice.
On big worlds or empty maps then you will have more cities , so the city specific wonders weaken (colussus, newton, copernicus, shakespear) and the global effect wonders get much stronger. The happiness wonders all help if you plan to go democracy and go for a tech / culture rush.
If you want a 100000 culture win then the older wonders are better ( esp Library) purely for the huge culture they give.
If you are going for 20000 culture win then you've got to find ways of putting many of the 6 and 5 culture wonders in one town.
If you plan a 0 science pope type gaome where you buy tech from the tech leader and sell it to the others then who cares about the science wonders.
If you're on pangea who cares about the seafaring wonders.
If you're on archipelago who caresa bout the continent wide wonders.
If you're on Deity how do you ever expect the time to build your own wonders anyway, you take what you can conquer.
A few trick wonder combos exist....
the well known colussuss + newton + copernicus all in the same coastal city is devastating on smaller maps.
A lucky iron works then build any wonder you can ( +100% shields and iron and coal all in the same city makes for a production monster )
Leonardoes + Sun Tzu means you just get a tech adavacnce giving a new unit ( eg NAtionalism ) , unzip one rifleman and hit SHIFT U , and all your riflemen turn into infantry ....
Shakespear ..... many people slam this one.... picture this.
You've gone to war to take a particlaur enemy city, bdcaue it has a resource you want or want to deny.
You bombard them back to the stome age then finally take the city with offensive units. Its a mess . ITs full of dead people and pissed off people and even the local bar has been hit by artillery fire. But you want to keep it. Luckiy you have shakespear available and a great leader just happend to appear in the figh that won the city.......
You guessed it , made instant shakespear, everyone cheers up mighty quick, and you get to drive a big culture wedge into the enemy territory
MAnhattan ... ? gives everyone nukes... why bother unless you have nothing better to build or such a huge tech lead ( that you are not selling) that you can build it , then a nuclear arsenal then manage to actually use it before anyone else gets nukes.
The high tech wonders ( Cure for cancer , longlife , and SETI ) are only good it you are already winning and trying to polish the highest possible score , more happy citizens and more future tech.
