Wide Play for Fast Victory: Theory

[joncnunn]

I think OP argument is why evenually a self founded wide empire would catch up.
In practice on Civ V on a standard map size on standard speed it doesn't because of:

1. start up costs for a new city (generic ones).

2. Extremely fast time to modern era compared to Civ IV and before.

3. The specific to Civ V requiring yet another copy of buildings for national wonders, especally science ones.

4. When going tall, the large decrease in startup costs of the first 4 cities with Civ V Tradition.

5. New to BNW, the very large power of food cargo ships (and to a lesser extent caravans), which also appear to benefit the capital when running tradition more than it would several cities when running liberty.

#1 & #2 are so critical, that I think on Huge map on epic speed a 6 city wide Liberty empire is faster than 4 city tradition. (Bigger tech costs from huge map, plus longer game from epic)

 

[Redaxe]

I think OP argument is why evenually a self founded wide empire would catch up.
In practice on Civ V on a standard map size on standard speed it doesn't because of:

1. start up costs for a new city (generic ones).

2. Extremely fast time to modern era compared to Civ IV and before.

Well this is it isn't it. The AI basically starts with most of the Ancient era unlocked and gets significant bonuses all round so they can progress very fast. And BNW introduced a lot of methods to boost science even more than GnKs had. We really need a whole new tech age introduced in between the renaissance and industrial era's to steady things out a bit.
Once someone gets a 200 turn SV (has that been done yet?) that is on average an age of the game every 25 turns

 

[Acken]

What would be easy is to slow down said tech boosts. Say with a nerf to NC, universities or secularism. GS bulbs increasing with time is also a rather poor mechanic.

The tech rate is perfect for the early game I think. It takes approximately 90-100 turns for people to reach the medieval era. But then it takes them only 60 turns to reach industrial (medieval+renaissance) and another 60 to finish the game (industrial, modern, atomic, information).

 

[vanatteveldt]

Or alternatively, just increase the tech cost by an extra X% per age, ie make industrial 25% more expense, modern 50% etc. That would increase the age without nerfing science play.

GS bulbing is complicated, you also don't want fixed value. Fixing the value at birth would make sense, however, just like (IIRC) musicians are done.

 

[Acken]

That would slow down the AI equally too though.

Making GS similar to GM would be the idea yes

 

[Redaxe]

GS management for liberty:
-There are already doubts it's worth settling with Tradition. With a wide game there are none. So don't settle any GS beyond the one you get out of the finisher if you chose that option.
-I'm fairly convinced you should always bulb ST and Plastics. Contrary to tradition I find it really unlikely you'll be able to get enough money to buy all your science buildings. So hard building them to start them sooner is worth it.
-Other midgame bulbs maybe. I found that it may be a little hard to wait long after plastics to get to rocketery at the right time so maybe adding a bulb somewhere before plastics is also worth it (fertilizer/chemistry) as it will allow you more time post plastics to wait for other bulbs to grow in strength.
-The end should be fairly similar to tradition.

For those of us who are a bit slower

So you're saying that it's probably a waste building academies (with the possible exception of the Liberty Finisher)?
That is quite a break from the original approach where plopping multiple academies until Atomic Theory was the norm.
So you recommend just bulbing the GSs as they appear with the exception of timing 2 of them to specifically rush ST and Plastics?
So it's better to get techs earlier than a general increase in bpt? I suppose I can see the logic here. Bulbing techs earlier beelines you to specific goals more quickly so you can get to buildings and wonders more quickly. Oxford University for Radio is another example I can think of and can be a quick way to get an ideology.

Bubling early Scientists might get you to Chemistry faster so you get the benefit of mines/quarries earlier - I tend to think that is an undervalued technology when people are focusing on early victories. If you focus entirely on the top half of the tech tree you are really gimping yourself trying to hardbuild Pubic Schools if your mines are only putting out 3 hammers.

 

[IronfighterXXX]

So you're saying that it's probably a waste building academies (with the possible exception of the Liberty Finisher)?
That is quite a break from the original approach where plopping multiple academies until Atomic Theory was the norm.

The common wisdom on this forum to plant scientists until ST proved to be untrue long time ago.

So you recommend just bulbing the GSs as they appear with the exception of timing 2 of them to specifically rush ST and Plastics?

I'm pretty sure Acken had in mind to save GSs to late game bulbs except those two.

Once someone gets a 200 turn SV (has that been done yet?)

It has been done few times already (eg. see my signature).

 

[peddroelm]

as to liberty paying a ton more in building maintenance - true - but often offset but the extra city connection gold and even more so by the extra luxuries and strategics available for trade .. It also can benefit gold income from cargoship trade route money from AI in some cases .. Say there is this huge tall AI capital that gives ~ 40 gold per trade route (and all other AI cities in rage way less) .. Liberty will be able to send more trade-routes to that gold mine ..

 

[vanatteveldt]

That would slow down the AI equally too though.

Making GS similar to GM would be the idea yes

The aim wasn't to boost the AI - if you think that deity is too easy you can always increase AI modifiers or play with handicaps.

I guess changing how GS works is impossible to change in mods, but maybe a "handicap rule" that great people have to be spent within (e.g.) 10 turns would do the same trick.

 

[stormtrooper412]

What would be easy is to slow down said tech boosts. Say with a nerf to NC, universities or secularism. GS bulbs increasing with time is also a rather poor mechanic.

The tech rate is perfect for the early game I think. It takes approximately 90-100 turns for people to reach the medieval era. But then it takes them only 60 turns to reach industrial (medieval+renaissance) and another 60 to finish the game (industrial, modern, atomic, information).

Secularism is probably the most OP policy in the entire game. That or the Tradition finisher. I think those two alone are good enough to trump most of Liberty setups. Or nerf the speed of earning GSs. In fact, entire Rationalism is quite OP

 

[peddroelm]

Missed opportunity that the vanilla or even UI mod doesn't show a city's gold worth per turn in the same place (city gold output + city connection gold - city building maintenance) ..

 

[Acken]

For those of us who are a bit slower

1. So you're saying that it's probably a waste building academies (with the possible exception of the Liberty Finisher)?
2. That is quite a break from the original approach where plopping multiple academies until Atomic Theory was the norm.
3. So you recommend just bulbing the GSs as they appear with the exception of timing 2 of them to specifically rush ST and Plastics?

1. Yes
2. It's been quite some time since it has no longer been the norm
3. No, extras should be kept for the end. Maybe one or 2 extra for chemistry/fertilizer may be worth it, this remains to be seen.

The aim wasn't to boost the AI - if you think that deity is too easy you can always increase AI modifiers or play with handicaps.

I guess changing how GS works is impossible to change in mods, but maybe a "handicap rule" that great people have to be spent within (e.g.) 10 turns would do the same trick.

No but what I meant was that humans currently leave the AI in the dust because of too powerful bonuses especially post medieval era. People would still play by the same rules (and you'd have a mod not made entirely for deity) but player curves would be smoothed. The AI would also be slowed down but since they use these systems suboptimally it wouldn't affect them as much. Making something like secularism more reasonable would make things a lot more interesting than giving the AI even higher bonuses. First it would help balance all difficulties and second it would make alternative options better in comparison.

 

[stormtrooper412]

Another thing you can add to the pile is that the AIs really rarely go down entire Rationalism tree. I mean, I've seen plenty of games where AI Babylon and AI Korea go Honor, which is ludicrous to say the least

 

[Redaxe]

1. Yes
3. No, extras should be kept for the end. Maybe one or 2 extra for chemistry/fertilizer may be worth it, this remains to be seen.

Thanks for clarifying that. One more query though - how do you factor in the increasing maintenance cost for the Scientists as time goes on. I think by the end game civilian units can cost 4-5 gold per turn just sitting around.
I suppose that as the game progresses that maintenance cost goes from 1 to about 30gpt.
Is that just a cost that you wear as part of this strategy. In the end that is less gold you can spend on other things so I'm assuming the bill for paying the scientists is worth it in the end?

 

[Acken]

I think its closer to 2gpt for most of the game. It actually takes a while to have a big number of them. By the time you have a lot your gpt should be also fairly high.

 

[Redaxe]

It actually takes a while to have a big number of them. By the time you have a lot your gpt should be also fairly high.

True and if you're going for a quick victory I guess the game doesn't last long enough to punish you too hard with maintenance costs.

I'm not sure what triggers maintenance costs for units to increase. Anyone know if it is number of technologies, the era or the number of turns?

 

[claudiupb]

Did someone actually made a calculation about planting the first natural GS? I almost always do this, but the more I think of it the more I think it's a bad idea.

 

[Acken]

True and if you're going for a quick victory I guess the game doesn't last long enough to punish you too hard with maintenance costs.

I'm not sure what triggers maintenance costs for units to increase. Anyone know if it is number of technologies, the era or the number of turns?

I think it's turn numbers but someone would have to verify

Did someone actually made a calculation about planting the first natural GS? I almost always do this, but the more I think of it the more I think it's a bad idea.

Last time I calculated it looked like approximately equivalent to keeping it for a game of mine so I guess it's definetely worth it for longer games.

 

[beetle]

Secularism is probably the most OP policy in the entire game.

Shoot, I may have been working Rationalism wrong this whole time. I thought it was Free Thought which was the gem. Generally, if I am just doing boring-but-strong Tradition + Rationalism, how much of Rationalism should I be picking up before working on Ideology Tenets?

So planting GS as academies before Public Schools is no longer the rule of thumb? When did that change? Does having good spots (i.e. unwet grassland) change things? If I have 100+ turns before the game end, does planting make sense then?

 

[claudiupb]

I think it's turn numbers but someone would have to verify

Yes, it is a formula based on turn number and total number of units.
It is very detailed here in the Unit maintenance category