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Will Civ VI use any mechanics from BE?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Amrunril, May 19, 2016.

  1. Hajee

    Hajee Prince

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    You are right about the value. In no way would it be a huge feature and very important to winning the game, it would just be something new and useful at the late game. Just a side feature to add to the game. So yes maybe not at release but add on later.

    It is a tough project because there would have to be a new layer added to the map like in BE.

    But we have 5 months to slowly get info, sigh I just sleep in intll October

    P.s. Yes it better be good!!
     
  2. Minor Annoyance

    Minor Annoyance Deity

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    I was going to start this topic, you stole my topic you jag!

    Anyway, diplomatic agreements performed a valuable gameplay function. They made it so another civilization could have more value alive wham dead. Usually just taking all a civs cities would get you everything they could offer through trade and eliminate a competitor. But you can't conquer a diplomatic agreement. The choosing of personality traits wouldn't fit in civ 6 but each leader could have a bonus to share like Sweden had in civ 5, only more substantial.
    However they have already stated that there will be more diplomacy outside of just war and peace as time goes on so they may already have something planned.

    Everything else in Beyond Earth wasn't finished enough for me to tell if it had value to other civ games. I do wish they had kept work on it.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
     
  3. Vrenir

    Vrenir King

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    I actually liked Beyond Earth Rising Tide better than CiV.

    One of the major aspects that I liked in BE was the use of Diplomatic Capital for agreements and trait upgrades. I would love to see that feature make its way to Civ VI.

    Another feature that I think has potential is the affinity system. While I still believe that it could have been fleshed out more fully in BE, I did like the idea of the same civilization going in different directions - these directions shaping not only bonuses but the appearance of the leaders, units, and buildings. In Civ, everything generally starts out with a diverse appearance based upon cultural region, but when we hit the Industrial era, everything starts to look the same with different flags. I would suggest building an affinity system into Civ that starts out early in the game but begins to have major effects around the Industrial era. This could be rooted in the CiV division between Freedom, Order, and Autocracy. Alternatively, they could represent a more broad spread of ideas as in BE: environmental harmony, militarism, and scholasticism . Imagine the different flavors that a single civ might have using these affinities: Harmony Greece might be a nature cult whose priestlike leader wears flowing robes and laurels. Militaristic Greece might be represented by someone like Alexander in full armor. Scholastic Greece might be led by a philosopher like Pericles of Athens. In the late-game, these affinities might significantly affect diplomatic relations and agreements - Harmony civs being environmentalist etc.

    The affinity system would also help to represent the differences that we find in the real world between the civilization development on various continents. So-called 'primitive' nations like the Iroquois might appear as they do in the game not because they are backward in technology but because they are Harmony based, while England is Scholastic. And what fun would it be if in another game those affinities were reversed?

    I am also a fan of the way that BE allowed for satellites and ocean-based cities. While the implementation could be fine-tuned, these are both areas that were always sorely lacking in earlier Civ games (not including Alpha Centauri). By the time my nation reaches the 21st century, I should have the option of expanding into the water. When I discover satellites, it would be nice if they served a function beyond revealing the entire map.

    One final area of BE that I would like to see implemented in Civ is the use of tile-effects. BE's use of miasma was a bit simplistic (it would have been more fun to see different tile-effects for different biomes), but Civ has always seemed oddly neutral about terrain affecting units. I want units in harsh environments to suffer penalties - in tundra, in desert, in jungle. I want to choose civs like the Arabs in part to avoid the desert penalty. I want to choose upgrades to help my troops survive better on tiles that I am looking to expand into.

    I think that's it for now - there may be other promising ideas from BE that I just am not thinking of at the moment. For instance, I'm pretty sure that BE is the first title in the series to limit wonders by placing them on their own tiles, which is being continued in Civ VI.
     
  4. DCParry

    DCParry Chieftain

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    The other thing I would like to see is the dual respect/fear bars that BERT added. This adds transparency to the diplomacy system and allows for a greater variety of diplomatic actions.
     
  5. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    I think the diplomacy and agreements were some of the worse in CivBE :/ But maybe it has more to do with how poorly it was made than the idea idk.
     
  6. DefiantMars

    DefiantMars King

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    The execution was not definitely not up to snuff. I did not like that Civ V's style of deals was basically just extortion. Not very diplomatic in my opinion. However The removal of the direct diplomacy options was highly questionable. I felt like it took away too much player agency (not that the AI every said yes to leaving you the hell alone). The ability to offer and accept services from other factions was a nice idea. And having semi-transparent thresholds for interactions with the AI.

    If they used Fear/Respect, in addition to the Civ V style options and you interlaced the two, I think that could have promising options.
     
  7. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    Fear and respect was okayish as an idea but how it increased/decreased in BERT was so stupid.

    You should get diplomatic effects for differences in "ideologies" and diplomatic moves (alliances, wars etc) not like BERT were an AI will like you for having a big number of trade routes (wtf seriously). I certainly do not want any of that in Civ6.

    I won't argue that Civ5 deals were lackluster though.
     
  8. Minor Annoyance

    Minor Annoyance Deity

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    Due to some negative reception of Beyond Earth they might not advertise that they're using features from it.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
     
  9. DefiantMars

    DefiantMars King

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    I agree.

    To me, BE's biggest problem is "Failure to execute". The idea of the diplomatic Fear/Respect system itself is a very novel idea with tons of potential, but it was not well executed. BE as a whole suffers from series of poor choices that accumulate surrounding the core problem of Affinity not being meaningful. (Why don't they have difference in playstyle?!)

    Ideas that BE brought up that could be good for other Civ titles:

    Divergent development of societies. Expand things like Ideologies and Governments
    Fear and Respect interactions
    Less rigid Culture reward system (Virtue Synergies)
    Better feeling with Aquatic gameplay
    Better exploration feel in the early game
     
  10. Talcove

    Talcove Slayer of Spies

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    I don't even care if Satellites will only be around in the last few dozen turns of the game, they were awesome and I want them. :)
     
  11. DCParry

    DCParry Chieftain

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    Sometime we have to step out of our own little bubble of opinion and not take it as indisputable fact.

    BE has an 81 on Metacritic (not an actual reasonable way of measuring a game's value, but we work with what we have). This is by no means a terrible score. Combine this with the 79 that the expansion received (for some odd reason) and you still have a very respectable 80.

    This negative reception is highly over played.
     
  12. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    Metacritic has their scores inflated by the gaming media that gave Beyond Earth a score of 81 which is actually quite low for the sycophantic media. For example:


    PC PowerPlay
    Nov 30, 2014
    100
    Beyond Earth is the finest thing that Firaxis has made and a game that we suspect we'll be playing for a long time to come. [Dec 2014, p.52]

    Right...:lol:

    The user score is more telling which chimes in at 5.5. Abysmally low.

    Rising Tide gets a 79 from the media which is quite low for them and a somewhat better but still quite poor 5.9 from user reviews.

    The negative reception is well deserved.

    http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/sid-meiers-civilization-beyond-earth
     
  13. DCParry

    DCParry Chieftain

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    User scores? Really? Have you read any of them? An avalanche of ones is such a reasonable response to the game. I wish people would stop conceiving of changes they don't like as personal attacks against themselves.

    Players, for the most part, are idiots when it comes to these things.

    But this is all beyond the scope of this discussion and probably shouldn't be pursued.
     
  14. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    There are likewise an equal number of 10s. Balance it out and you get a decently accurate score.

    Anyway, I don't think it's a stretch to say that Beyond Earth wasn't particularly well received.
     
  15. AriochIV

    AriochIV Colonial Ninja

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    I hope that the Civ VI team as learned from the successes and failures of the Beyond Earth experiments. Otherwise that whole chapter of the Civ franchise would seem like a terrible waste.
     
  16. HorseshoeHermit

    HorseshoeHermit 20% accurate as usual, Morty

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    An assessment of Beyond Earth's failure is exactly on topic and just what a discussion on recycling its mechanics could include.

    The press has sort of? already confirmed that the "You're doing stuff I like/don't like, therefore I will despise you!" mechanic from Fear/Respect is in the game, with the example of the wonder-loving short fuse maniac.
    That doesn't really... count as taking anything from BE, though.
     
  17. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    The "sycophantic media", really?

    Users are not better or more accurate at determining the worth of a game than people who do it for a living. The people who do it for a living may disagree on a wide range of subjective evaluations meaning that your personal review will not match up with them on the subjectives, but in terms of the quality of review theirs is still likely to be better.

    The main problem in the user perception of games media, I find, is this hyper-logical fascination that reviews have to be objective. They can't be, by definition, they are written by human beings about a product that delivers subjective entertainment to the person who interacts with them. It is impossible to get an objective point out of that aside from technical performance - and even that won't be the same for everyone.

    Also, Metacritic is hot garbage and the impact review scores have on the health and safety of games developers is reaching a groteseque level. People end up out of a job if a game ends up under 80%. It's ridiculous. Not to mention the hatemail actual journalists receive from not giving specific games a good score . . .
     
  18. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

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    An objective review is a goal that can never be achieved, however, that does not mean that a reviewer should not strive to be as objective as possible. A perfect 100 for Beyond Earth is insane, no matter how you look at it. The reviewer must either be completely incompetent to arrive at such a score, or he has ignored the many problems the game had at release.

    And so are the re-occurring extremely high scores for triple-A-titles that turn out to be horrible. Reducing a score because the reviewer found the depiction of the main character "too sexy" is also insanity that casts a shadow on "games journalism" as a whole.

    Not that user scores are any better either, it's ironic how those who claim that they want to keep politics and ideology out of gaming and reviews objective seem to be the first to barrage a game with bad reviews over political and ideological disagreements.

    In the end the solution is always the same: We live in an age where we can look at the game ourselves, youtube and twitch are filled with gameplay footage on the day of the release and often even in the weeks before that. Thankfully we don't NEED to trust the players or the reviewers to tell us how good the game is.

    Anyway, to get back to topic:

    I agree that the execution isn't very good, but I'm not quite sure if the "failure to execute" is really the core issue. The way I see it it's more like... a mechanic built on a bad idea, namely that the opinions of a leader should be, for the most part, based on a semi-arbitrary part of your empire instead of actual diplomacy. The way Fear and Respect work seems more like a mechanic for a complex board game and way too abstract to fit the roleplay-ish elements of 4x games.
     
  19. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    Well fearing someone that has a big army or respecting someone that has a similar ideology make sense but the arbitrary metrics of BERT certainly doesn't. It also creates a runaway effect for the player (strong empires are respected, weak ones are hated) as guessed even before release.
    Games should usually offer catch up mechanics (spies for example) to help the weak, not the other way around.
     
  20. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

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    Yeah, but that's exactly what I'm trying to say. ^^ It's a gimmicky idea that replaced the "logical" approach.

    Something like that makes sense is a board game where literally everything is abstracted a lot, less so in a game that tries to portrait the other leaders as semi-rational entities within the world of the game.
     

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