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Will there be Rhye's and Fall of Civilization 6?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Creation & Customization' started by Genghis Khaiser, Jul 9, 2016.

  1. TheMarshmallowBear

    TheMarshmallowBear Benelovent Chieftain of the BearKingdom

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    This doesn't need a kickstarter, plus no mod should be paid for.

    As of right now, there's still a number of features missing in LUA that prevent the mod from really happening, I'd be happy to give it a go, but from my experience so far there's a number of things that are not implemented (namely anything that changes the owner of a city) which blocks several need-be features from working.
     
  2. -Perceval-

    -Perceval- Chieftain

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    Damn :(
    Do you think it still have a chance tho?
     
  3. TheMarshmallowBear

    TheMarshmallowBear Benelovent Chieftain of the BearKingdom

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    Yea? We just need to wait until they give us lua functions that perform the right job. Or just give us the DLL.
     
  4. Bonci

    Bonci Chieftain

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    Rhye's and Fall of Civilization 6 just announced by Firaxis DX

    Jokes aside, the new mechanics introduced in the expansion should really come in handy when trying to recreate the civ4 mod magic.
     
  5. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    That will depend on the method exposed to Lua (or if we get the source code)

    BTW, I think that we can already "flip" a city (by destroying and recreating it), with some limitations if you want to keep some of the base game system (like setting previous city owner for occupation/liberation mechanisms)
     
  6. TDK

    TDK Chieftain

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    1SDAN likes this.
  7. SadoMacho

    SadoMacho spanker of civilizations

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    @Rhye, Rise&Fall, it`s a sign for the Mod God to return. And not just with a recipe for pizza :) )
     
    Bonci, TDK and 1SDAN like this.
  8. lp_04

    lp_04 Chieftain

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    With the new loyalty system wouldn't it be possible to set a major increase in loyalty at the Historical Spawn Date of a civilization in a predetermined area and a major decrease for any controller of the cities in that area?

    I am no modder whatsoever, but if the access to the codes become available, perhaps I would like to see a Historical Spawn Date + True Starting Location + Historical Victory Conditions mod based on the systems coming in Rise and Fall (i.e. Loyalty and perhaps Golden Ages) better than a mod copying the mechanics applied in Civilization IV by Rhye. Stability is a paramount concept in such a mod and Rhye created it for civilization IV in the best way, making it one of the most interesting mechanics in the game, even without considering the HSD+TSL+HVC caractheristics of that mod. Although, the stability system was created in favor of the HSD+TSL+HVC caractheristics (I suppose). Maybe in civ VI the loyalty system may provide some useful tools to recreate that characteristics, maintaining the HSD+TSL+HVC. It would not be a TRUE Rhye's and Fall but it would capture the flavour of that mod with (it seems) less time investment.

    Spoiler :


    - All of the civilizations are available at the start of the game, but only some of them (let's say like 22) are used in a game. This means that civilizations must be sorted somehow, and they should be sorted during the game.

    - Instead of spawning at a predetermined year, civilizations appear at the dawn of a new era (between Ancient and Modern eras). All of the new civilizations of an era will appear at the same turn, like late era starts. It's like "a new chapter of world's history=new factions in the history". It seems easier to apply spawning civs in a balanced mod than with true historical spawn dates, also enabling all the civs to come in play, potentially (see below).

    Spoiler :

    Possible sort of civilizations by era:
    --Ancient Era-- (3 chosen out of 5)
    Egypt
    Greece (Pericles)
    Greece (Gorgo)
    Sumeria
    China

    --Classical Era-- (5 chosen out of 7)
    Rome
    Macedon
    Scythia
    Persia
    Nubia
    India (Chandragupta)
    Korea

    --Medieval Era-- (6 chosen out of 9)
    Norway
    France
    Germany
    Spain
    England
    Arabia
    Georgia
    Khmer
    Japan

    --Renaissance Era-- (6 chosen out of 9)
    Cree
    Aztec
    Scotland
    Netherlands
    Poland
    Russia
    Mongolia
    Indonesia
    Kongo

    --Industrial Era-- (1 chosen out of 2)
    America
    Brazil

    --Modern Era-- (1 chosen out of 2)
    India (Gandhi)
    Australia


    - Since there are more civs available than civs actually entering the game, you will never know for sure where a civilization appears. This means that Rome may colonize Spain, and never, perhaps, never loose that cities for a spawning Spain. The spawning civilizations can be chosen by a formula including: loyalty pressure of civilizations at starting region (including also the presence of CS or free cities); loyalty levels of the empires occupying the starting region of that civilization; probability modifiers for regional spawning control (for instance: if pericles is picked, then grogo has a small probability of being picked than cleopatra, Gogamesh or Shin Shi Huang; if them egypt is picked, then china has the highest probability related to this modifier; even though, china may never be picked in that game and sumeria or gorgo appear instead). This would make no game equal to the previous one, as the spawning civilizations are always different, but they will also have a tendency to spawn in the regions where political power of the already in game civilizations is shaky.

    - City states may spawn as minor civilizations but may also spawn in some regions with low loylalty pressure from other civs repacing one of the not chosen civilizations. Then, even if china does not come in play, the korean will still have a CS to trade and so on in the early game.

    Spoiler :


    Possible scenario for civilizations spawning in the classical era:
    1) In the ancient Era, Cleopatra, Gilgamesh and Pericles spawned. Pericles colonized the dacian region, the italian peninsula and carthague, but their cities are usually unhappy. Cleopatra has all the nile and a few solid cities. Gilgamesh setteled in iran and has a stable stronghold there, but they are shaky in the overall.
    2) At the start of the classical era, Rome and Maedon have a high probability of appearing; Persia also has a higher probability of appearing but it is less than rome/macedon; nubia has a probability lower than average because of the egyptian strong loyalty in the nile; scythia, india and korea have all average probability (no civilizations in their region):

    Spoiler :

    First Pick:
    Very High: Rome and Macedon
    High: Persia
    Average: Korea, Scythia, India
    Low:
    Very Low: Nubia

    -----Rome is selected; all the civs of other regional gropus increase the odds (Macedon and Scythia are in the regional group of Rome for instance):

    Second Pick:
    Very High: Persia
    High: Macedon, Korea, India
    Average:
    Low: Nubia, Scythia
    Very Low:

    -----Persia is selected, it is in the same group as India and Nubia for instance:

    Third Pick:
    Very High: Korea, Macedon
    High:
    Average: India, Scythia
    Low:
    Very Low: Nubia

    ----- Korea is selected, it is has no other civs in the group:

    Fourth Pick:
    Very High: Macedon,
    High: Scythia, India
    Average:
    Low: Nubia
    Very Low:

    ----- Macedon is selected

    Fifth Pick:
    Very High: India
    High:
    Average: Scythia, Nubia
    Low:
    Very Low:

    ----- India is selected.


    3) Rome and macedon appearing relfects the very low stability status of pericles (like a civil war), while the strong egyptian status held the appearance of Nubia for that game. Even though gilgamesh exherted strong influence in Iran, his empire was weak in the overall, which dictated the rupture of his cities there. India and Korea appear in unoccupied regions, but they had more chances than scythia, given that that civ was regionally paied with some of the highest probable picks.


    - The unpredictable spawning of civs means that historical victory conditions must be different each Game. It will be difficult for India to be a religious tall civ if most of the civs are way too far. Historical victory could be achieved by completing 3 sequential golden ages. Dedications can be changed for some historical achievements common of each era. For instance, a dedication could provide additional era points for "settle a city" and other could provide even more for "conquer an original capital".

    Spoiler :

    In the scenario presented, Rome should pick the conquerer option since Macedon and Greece are nearby, and not the typical colonization of RFC. India should pick the colonization dedication instead of a tall path like in RFC given the free land they have available.,


     
    Prester John 2 likes this.
  9. MAHRana

    MAHRana Chieftain

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    I would play this mod
     
  10. TheMarshmallowBear

    TheMarshmallowBear Benelovent Chieftain of the BearKingdom

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    I am hopefully going to tackle the challenge, but it all depends on what's exposed in the LUA. In theory, it's easily done a part from few things (Stability maps being one of the more trickier parts).

    But I've already got the system in place for Historic Spawning, I just need to iron out a system to grant players correct techs, gold, etc.[/spoiler]
     
    Prester John 2 likes this.
  11. mrrandomplayer

    mrrandomplayer Potentially back

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    Once Rise and Fall comes out I'd be interested in helping develop a Rhye's and Fall for Civ 6. I'm going to be pretty busy over the next few months and it's been a long time since I've touched a Civ mod of any game (I haven't even tried civ 6 modding) in a while, but I'd definitely be interested in helping with both design and coding.
     
  12. black213

    black213 Chieftain

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    Thoughts on possibility of R&F for Civ 6 now that its second expansion is out?
     
  13. TheMarshmallowBear

    TheMarshmallowBear Benelovent Chieftain of the BearKingdom

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    A stable version would likely require a released DLL source. The only other problem is city flipping. There's currently no known Lua Function that converts ownership from one leader to another, which would make spawning difficult (unless you go the LONG route).

    But it is largely possible, just needs someone to go ahead and do it.
     
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  14. Xefjord

    Xefjord Chieftain

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    I would just make the loyalty pressure in one area artificially high for a new civilization that doesn't exist yet.
    So if you are playing China and you put a city where Pyongyang is, then the time for Korea to spawn in comes around, there will start being Korean loyalty affecting those tiles if there is cities there preventing Korea from spawning, and the loyalty will then eventually get so high that it will likely forcefully convert a city there to a (currently non-existing) Korean civilization. This is how I expected it would work.
     
  15. TheMarshmallowBear

    TheMarshmallowBear Benelovent Chieftain of the BearKingdom

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    There's no known functions that can affect Loyalty pressure or any requirements that can actually control it. It's either based off foreign continents, or flat reduction of Loyalty, but even so, if you settle Pyongyang as China and Korea spawns then you would have to first either destroy the city, or destroy the city and replace it as Korea, which can work but there's a lot of variables and will probably take a bit of a CPU hit for calculating all the needed data, because there is no flat "ConvertCityToX()".

    Even for the "historical" area, the biggest problem is Loyalty, although that one isn't too bad, but i'd take a while because Korea would in this case have to exert a TON of pressure from it's capital (thankfully we have Turn X requirement or turns since, but that might not necessairly scale with GameSpeed well) to flip the other cities.

    There is no way to force the game to produce a specific civilization's loyalty anyway, (as you suggest) which mean that work arounds would be necessairly until the DLL can be released.

    The other main issue is Civs number. The game supports I believe up to 66 civilizations and leaders (not sure what happens if you go beyond that since 67 and 68 are reserved for Free Cities and Barbarians) but even so, many peopl ehave struggled running a game with many civs, and once again, there's no way to "kill" a civilization and liberate it via Lua. So they'd have to be very much stuck in limbo and be "there" but not "really be there".
     

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