Winds and currents..?

[Thormodr]

why not take it a step further and model climate, simple temperature model based on longitude/terrain type/planetary tilt/cloud cover. winds based on temperature variation, rain based on evaporation/temperature and then tie it back to terrain type being based on temp and rainfall. would allow for the local climate changes we've seen from deforestation and large dams. the model is way to simple to call it realistic, but it might add an interesting element to game play, is it really worth cutting down all the forests?? for the immediate production bonus?

Exactly. The Civ series has been screwing up forests again and again. In fact, in Civ 1 it was better to chop down all your forests as they gave you production which led to pollution.

I'd like to see a real benefit in leaving some of the forests. Crappy preserves didn't cut it. (No pun intended. )

 

[Danchops]

Europa Universalis 3's latest expansion, Heir to the Throne, included a similar concept. I haven't had a chance to pick up HttT yet, but I'm curious if there are any insights that its implementation of trade winds and currents has for implementing a similar mechanic in ciV. Does anyone who's played HttT care to comment? Was it a net positive for gameplay? Was the EU3 implementatino worthwhile?

 

[The Cosmic Kid]

Exactly. The Civ series has been screwing up forests again and again. In fact, in Civ 1 it was better to chop down all your forests as they gave you production which led to pollution.

I'd like to see a real benefit in leaving some of the forests. Crappy preserves didn't cut it. (No pun intended. )

Well, what were the historical benefits of leaving forests standing? I don't really want the payoff to come only in the late game in the form of lessened global warming. So should lumber mills be more effective and/or come earlier in the tech tree, so they can really compete with towns and farms?

 

[oynaz]

If it's not too complicated I'm all for it.
I think the best way to implement it would be as some kind of randomly generated road on the ocean that connects continents and islands. It would allow early ships to explore and colonize islands and speed up more modern ships a bit.
They shouldn't be too common though and not connect continents that are too far away.

I really like this idea. This could really make naval combat interesting.
Are you reading this, Firaxis?

 

[Thormodr]

Well, what were the historical benefits of leaving forests standing? I don't really want the payoff to come only in the late game in the form of lessened global warming. So should lumber mills be more effective and/or come earlier in the tech tree, so they can really compete with towns and farms?

I read an interesting book by Jared Diamond called Collapse. It talks about the dangers of deforesting areas and how it affected various societies.

Diamond lists eight factors which have historically contributed to the collapse of past societies:

1. Deforestation and habitat destruction
2. Soil problems (erosion, salinization, and soil fertility losses)
3. Water management problems
4. Overhunting
5. Overfishing
6. Effects of introduced species on native species
7. Overpopulation
8. Increased per-capita impact of people

Further, he says four new factors may contribute to the weakening and collapse of present and future societies:

1. Human-caused climate change
2. Buildup of toxins in the environment
3. Energy shortages
4. Full human utilization of the Earth’s photosynthetic capacity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_%28book%29

Deforestation leads to changes in rainfall patterns and all kinds of environmental problems including less fish in nearby seas. Soil erosion is also another problem. China and its expanding Gobi desert is directly caused by this.

Hopefully ciV will finally give us a reason to keep forests around game wise. I am hoping for subtle little bonuses. Maybe an increased chance of good random events or less disease or better overall health.

BTW, I hate the way they do global warming. I even played games where I never chopped down a forest, maxed my health buildings and adopted environmentalism. I built nature preserves everywhere. I also controlled about 50% of the globe when the Industrial age started. Global Warming still ravaged me.

 

[Malkaviel]

Hopefully ciV will finally give us a reason to keep forests around game wise. I am hoping for subtle little bonuses. Maybe an increased chance of good random events or less disease or better overall health.

uh...

BTW, I hate the way they do global warming. I even played games where I never chopped down a forest, maxed my health buildings and adopted environmentalism. I built nature preserves everywhere. I also controlled about 50% of the globe when the Industrial age started. Global Warming still ravaged me.

Hey have you ever played Alpha Centauri or the decent civ4 mod mirror of it? I bet you'd love playing Deirdre.

 

[Silurian]

The length of a turn is so long that individual storms would effect everyone! Or you couls sail around them/ stay in port etc.

You could have some random bonus "favorable winds give plus one movement this turn" for sailing ships. Or "Ship sunk/ or damaged in Typhoon"

You could have different provailing winds for areas of the ocean which give a 1mp bonus/ penalty to pre steam ships going with or against the wind. no change for tacking. Or areas of ocean that were always storm so 1mp penalty to all ships, sailing ships can not take advantage of the wind because it is too strong.

This could make parts of the ocean more important strategically. An upwind island would be a good place for the navy.

 

[The Cosmic Kid]

Hopefully ciV will finally give us a reason to keep forests around game wise. I am hoping for subtle little bonuses. Maybe an increased chance of good random events or less disease or better overall health.

I'm not sure about events, but forests do give a health bonus in Civ4. (This might be what Malkaviel is alluding to.)

 

[Iván de España]

I think it's a fantastic idea.

 

[Danielos]

We definietly need some better climate, weather, winds and currents in Civ. I would also like them to have effects on combat and movement.

Also, include some megalodons, great sea serpents and a few Kraken to spice up the ocean a little...

 

[Janusi]

It's always bugged me a little too, how forests were treated in the game. Historically speaking, wood was used both as a source of fuel and construction material. But in Civ you can build fleets of woodedn ships without your city actually having any access to a forest.

 

[-FC-Commando]

The game that has the most simple but realistic sailing mechanics is : Uncharted Waters 2 (Snes).

Steal it. Winds and current for Sailboats and only currents for steam/combustion ships. Bad weather preventing airplanes from flying maybe a good idea.

 

[Ahriman]

It'd be neat if you could model how coal ships were not necessarily faster than wood, but more reliable since they were no longer subject to fickle wind patterns. And since the warfare is moving in a tactical direction it would be interesting to see a combat advantage to having the wind gauge.

But I don't think its worth the extra complexity.

Being unable to build a navy without having forests doesn't sound like fun to me.

 

[Thormodr]

uh...



Hey have you ever played Alpha Centauri or the decent civ4 mod mirror of it? I bet you'd love playing Deirdre.

I sure did and I loved playing Deirdre.

 

[Thormodr]

I'm not sure about events, but forests do give a health bonus in Civ4. (This might be what Malkaviel is alluding to.)

Yes. I meant a bigger health bonus, sorry.

Make it definitely worthwhile however. Unhealthiness is generally ignored as a feature in cIV. Most people react to unhappiness but don't care much for unhealthiness.

There should be a financial penalty I think. People are less productive and die earlier.

 

[Thormodr]

"You intend to have a ship sail against the winds and currents by lighting a bon-fire under her deck? Begone, I have no time for such nonsense."

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[LDiCesare]

Static wind/current settings would be great. Map modders already used wind patterns anyway, so it would be nice to add them in.
A more complex meteorogical model, however, would probably be a pain.

 

[Zhahz]

The scale of the game is huge and something like this would really add nothing but unnecessary complexity. Plus, if you play random maps the whole blind exploration thing pretty much incorporates stuff like this as you plod around trying to find stuff. If you explore north and find nothing when the land is to the south, you could always imagine it was because the wind blew you off course if you wanted to.

 

[Hypernova]

The scale of the game is huge and something like this would really add nothing but unnecessary complexity. Plus, if you play random maps the whole blind exploration thing pretty much incorporates stuff like this as you plod around trying to find stuff. If you explore north and find nothing when the land is to the south, you could always imagine it was because the wind blew you off course if you wanted to.

Agreed, a random hurricane destroying an invasion fleet might sound cool until it happened to you. Winds and currents affecting the speed of ships might sound cool but I think would ultimately feel restricting. Many decisions in Civ that would have really been random are made by you, Civilizations don't really choose where to found their cities. So I think the rationalisation Zhahz describes is fine for winds and currents.

 

[Joecoolyo]

Europa Universalis 3's latest expansion, Heir to the Throne, included a similar concept. I haven't had a chance to pick up HttT yet, but I'm curious if there are any insights that its implementation of trade winds and currents has for implementing a similar mechanic in ciV. Does anyone who's played HttT care to comment? Was it a net positive for gameplay? Was the EU3 implementatino worthwhile?

I haven't used the trade winds yet (I almost never send my ships to the colonies) but apparently, if the arrows point in the direction your heading, it makes you go faster. I'm not sure if it slows you down if your going to opposite direction or not.