Without Atheism the game would remain incomplete. A patch is anticipated I think!!!

[HourlyDaily]

Quote: "Salting the wound, of course, was the bizarre and offensive statement that secularism is equivalent to paganism - which is utter nonsense"

That's pretty much the entire point - NONE of these terms have the same meaning in practice, no matter what dictonary you read - because the language is far more alive and 'loaded' than the dictionary.

And I am not worried about the rise of fundamentalist revisionism in a civ game, as I'm sure you aren't Frekk, as compared to the damage it does in real life - but I want to improve the 'game mechanic' to include a 'name' with characteristics that I want to play eg: Modern Humanistic government, Secularism etc. (not suppression of Religions, though I'm sure this is what Rex is looking for.)

I welcome the comments from Greek Stud and Frekk and your like for bringing some thought to the table rather than a reactive 'they are the same thing' statement.

I hope this is the last time it will need to be brought up.

 

[UWS]

I'd prefer MUCH MORE to focus on REAL(and not fake) culture: Advances, Art(...), Human Rights(...) This way, enemy cities would join you, been impressed of how CIVILISED one Civ is, and not how THEOCRATIC the Civ is.

Oh, so there's fake culture now is there? And religion is this "fake culture" you speak of?
What's that I smell? Smells like something that fell from a bull's behind.

Let us take a definition of culture:

cul·ture Pronunciation Key (klchr)
n.

1.
1. The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought.
2. These patterns, traits, and products considered as the expression of a particular period, class, community, or population: Edwardian culture; Japanese culture; the culture of poverty.
3. These patterns, traits, and products considered with respect to a particular category, such as a field, subject, or mode of expression: religious culture in the Middle Ages; musical culture; oral culture.
4. The predominating attitudes and behavior that characterize the functioning of a group or organization.

(Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=culture)

Now let's look at religion. Let's see:
-Religion consists of socially transmitted behaviour patterns.
-Much art has arisen from religion (Sistine Chapel, a huge amount of Greek art and Architecture.... the list goes on).
-Beliefs....well, religion consists mainly of beliefs, I don't think that bit needs to be elaborated
-Institutions... unfortunately I don't have time to write out all the institutions which have arisen around religion.
-Products of human work and thought - You can look at that 2 ways:
1) Religion was invented by humans
2) The development of theology indicates human work and thought

Either way...still a product of human work and thought

Now I don't have time to look at the rest of that definition and apply it to religion, but use your noodle for goodness' sake. Religion is major foundation of civilization and the culture that comes with civilization, so religion is REAL culture in every way

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Quote: "Salting the wound, of course, was the bizarre and offensive statement that secularism is equivalent to paganism - which is utter nonsense"

Agree If we are talking about real life, of course in real Life a Porportional representation system like is present in most of Europe and a Winner Take all system like in the US are not the same but for the purposes of the GAME they are. (both falling under Universal Suffrage)
An Anglic Swordsman would not be identical to a Frankish swordsman but for the purposes of the GAME they are
Secularism is not equivalent to paganism, but for the purposes of the GAME they are.
(For justification of How secularism is equivalent to paganism in game see "Role of religion in the game"
Which is to add a Unifying factor to people. Secularism, like paganism is a lumping together of a large number of beliefs, so one secular group will not necessarily identify with another. Because One name was needed to describe the "No religion state" they chose Pagan rather than Secular to better model the Ancient period.

Now presumably one can have No official religion (or Official Religion: Paganism) because you Can't have any other official religion at the start of the game. Later in the game, that would serve to model a secular state [presumably doing that will not be possible with the two religious civics of Theocracy and Organized Religion]... Although, if it Is then a secular Theocracy ie all 'religions' are persecuted would be possible, but because Paganism is so different from the 'other religions' no 'spreading' no special buildings, etc.It might have some other restrictions and limitations.


And to those who want to play a Secular Humanist Government, I would say choosing No state religion or Pagan as the state religion (whichever is the name of that option) would model that ... and then the level of repression against reliions would depend on your civics choices
Freeedom of Religion + no/Pagan official religion = a secular state that allows religion
Pacifism and/or Primitivism + no/Pagan official religion = a secular state that persecutes religion

and things like Freedom of Speech/Police state might modify the developmend/effects of religion as well as the overall feel of your government

 

[mitsho]

pardon, wrong thread (accidental post)

 

[frekk]

Agree If we are talking about real life, of course in real Life a Porportional representation system like is present in most of Europe and a Winner Take all system like in the US are not the same but for the purposes of the GAME they are. (both falling under Universal Suffrage)
An Anglic Swordsman would not be identical to a Frankish swordsman but for the purposes of the GAME they are

These are, at least, somewhat similar and related, but equating great Western minds like Hume and Kant with a hocus-pocus witchdoctor is another thing entirely - the witchdoctor has alot more in common with the major religions. It is more akin to saying that a Rifleman is equivalent to a Warrior. Yes, its just a game, but even so it remains an bizarre and ignorant notion which I'd rather not support with my wallet.

Secularism, like paganism is a lumping together of a large number of beliefs, so one secular group will not necessarily identify with another.

Nope. Secularism is secularism ... just like Christianity is Christianity. Its practiced differently by different people, but they regard themselves as sharing similar views. But a witchdoctor and an priest of Ra would hardly regard themselves as having anything in common.

Because One name was needed to describe the "No religion state" they chose Pagan rather than Secular to better model the Ancient period.

There was no such thing as a "no religion state" in the ancient period. States were at their MOST religious in that time. This is the kind of weird distortion I'm talking about. It models nothing well, it is in fact a very very bad model.

 

[Markus6]

Salting the wound, of course, was the bizarre and offensive statement that secularism is equivalent to paganism

Frekk could you post the actual quote. I'm afraid I'm at work and don't have time to find it myself. I thought the actual quote was more like, "non-religious governements will be represented by paganism and free religion". I'd still say that was wrong as I see paganism encompassing the early religions, but not quite so offensive, just saying it's one of the non-major-religion options.

 

[Hellfire]

First, I'd like to say that I am a self proclaimed Atheist. I have strong beliefs on the subject but this is a gaming forum and it's not the place for it.

Second, no one actually has the game so perhaps there is a way to properly represent it. No one has tried to discuss this issue in terms of game mechanics, so I think everyone, on all sides of the issue, has no idea what they are talking about. We have some snippets that were released as part of a marketing pump up, not as something that was meant to get input from the community to make last minute changes to the game. To build on that, the discussion should be about game mechanics, not "atheism is not a religion." Screw personal feelings, does atheism work in terms of game mechanics? You can make anything work if you want it to, and atheism is a big enough part of the world (both past and present) to get consideration. Right now, we have absolutely no idea what having Christianity or Confucianism means in terms of having a religion. Therefore we can't discuss the mechanics.

Third, given most development cycles, and the fact that the game is going to be released in november, I doubt we'll be able to affect a change. It won't be hard to mod, but the developers need to balance the baseline game and that's a lot harder than a simple mod.

Fourth, atheists comprise the 7th or 8th largest "religion" world wide, according to the 2004 top ten of everything. We atheists make a big deal about this some time because we really don't get a whole lot of respect from the rest of the world. The dictionary.com reference made earlier has one of atheisms "definitions" as immorality, which any atheist will tell you is by no means a real definition of atheism, unless you are using it as a slur. Thus the atheists are a little defensive when we hear "atheism is not a religion" because in this context it sounds like we aren't good enough to be in the game. On the other hand, the atheists in turn haven't been all that kind back to the board.

Finally, I propose we table these discussions until november, or at least until we get more info on the game mechanics. I also propose we any atheist thread that gets out of control, like this one. Discussions of religion are touchy, and the only time we should be discussing Civ4 world religions is in terms of game mechanics, not in terms of philosophically if something should be included or not. Otherwise it's the crusades all over again.

 

[Phoenix_56721]

Finally, I propose we table these discussions until november, or at least until we get more info on the game mechanics. I also propose we any atheist thread that gets out of control, like this one. Discussions of religion are touchy, and the only time we should be discussing Civ4 world religions is in terms of game mechanics, not in terms of philosophically if something should be included or not. Otherwise it's the crusades all over again.

Very well put hellfire, and if any of my comments that I made relating Atheists and Pagans hurt anyone's feelings I’m Sorry, I meant no harm, I was just Stating my opinion, but on this subject things can get way too personnel!