Wonder Elimination Thread

[Gucumatz]

Alhambra 12
Big Ben 19
Chichen Itza 26
Eiffel Tower 11
Great Library 10
Hanging Gardens 28
Hubble 21
Leaning Tower of Pisa 24
Louvre 29
Machu Picchu 26
Neuschwanstein Castle 14 (-3)
Notre Dame 30
Oracle 31
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 24
Sistine Chapel 9
Statue of Liberty 10 (+1)

Neuschwanstein just won't die. Keeps coming back from the dead . Voting up SoL as its still better than Big Ben, Neuschwanstein, Eiffel Tower, and want to see it kept a bit longer than Neuschwanstein at least

 

[Leviat]

Alhambra 12
Big Ben 19
Chichen Itza 26
Eiffel Tower 11
Great Library 7
Hanging Gardens 29
Hubble 21
Leaning Tower of Pisa 24
Louvre 29
Machu Picchu 26
Neuschwanstein Castle 14
Notre Dame 30
Oracle 31
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 24
Sistine Chapel 9
Statue of Liberty 10

Great Library: When I first picked up Civ V and was playing on Prince/King, I loved the GL. On lower levels, I was consistently able to build it and pop Theology/Civil Service. However, I cannot think of a single time where I have built it on Immortal or the few times I've played Deity. And even if I was able to, I don't think it is worth the opportunity cost. It would have to be built so early that you are receiving a mediocre tech, and at a time where there is too much else to do with expansion. I'd rather have more workers and military protection.

Hanging Gardens: I hate missing this wonder. I am nearly always able to build this wonder on Immortal and even at times on Deity, and I find it indispensable. It is a little out of my preferred tech path, but not especially since I'll have Archery to defend my cities and The Wheel to connect them. Plus, I've got it worked out so that all my 4 cities *usually* have libraries when the HG is completed, and so I can immediately build the National College in the HG city. Which is awesome. HG has a high opportunity cost, but even higher reward, imo.
Then again I've lost the deity games I've played, maybe because I take so long on this!

Almost went Notre Dame, since it is another wonder I can usually grab (and if I don't, it is a wonderful prize to conquer!), and I'm almost always in need of +10 happiness especially at that point in the game where I have made a few puppets.

 

[knighterrant81]

Neuschwanstein just won't die. Keeps coming back from the dead . Voting up SoL as its still better than Big Ben, Neuschwanstein, Eiffel Tower, and want to see it kept a bit longer than Neuschwanstein at least

People keep saying Neusch is bad because you don't build castles. If you build Neusch and take Honor, that is a reason *to* build castles, all on its own.

 

[ohdaesu]

if you built neusch and then castles(a cost free building) in all your cities you can see the profit. If you dont build any castle of course it is useless. But building castles is very cheap and easy. So why not to build?

 

[PhilBowles]

Again one vote for the Great Library for early and possibly su.stained.
Petra is ridiculously overrated. People seem to judge it on a best case scenario when your first Settler starts in the midst of a lot of desert hills at a river.

Or possibly from gameplay experience rather than theorising that good desert tiles should be rarer than, in practice, they are?

SofL is way overrated in my opinion. 1200 hammers for a production bonus that isn't going to make up 1200 hammers any time soon unless I've got a ton of cities that can afford to have a ton of specialists, at which point I've probably already won the game.

That's a flawed way of looking at it. Civ isn't an economy simulator like an RTS, where everything boils down to whether something will break even on the initial investment. Building SoL accumulates those 1200 hammers over a long period, in one city, but 'returns' that investment on accelerated production on all future units/buildings/Wonders you construct, throughout your empire. I'm also surprised it's stuck around this long - it feels too late in the tech tree for its bonus to be especially effective, and I rarely build it - but 'It doesn't give you 1200 hammers' is the wrong reason.

 

[Leviat]

if you built neusch and then castles(a cost free building) in all your cities you can see the profit. If you dont build any castle of course it is useless. But building castles is very cheap and easy. So why not to build?

If I build a castle, I cannot build something else. That something else might be more useful.

 

[blackcatatonic]

If I build a castle, I cannot build something else. That something else might be more useful.

Castles are cheap and have no maintenance cost. And by the time you get Neuschwanstein, you should have built most of the essential buildings in most of your cities anyway. Additionally, it's one of the late-game wonders that the AI hardly ever bothers with, presumably due to not always having a city in the right spot or their overwhelming desire to build SoL. If you have the opportunity to do so, it's always worth going for, in my opinion. It's a nice wonder.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

If I build a castle, I cannot build something else. That something else might be more useful.

By the time Neuschwanstein is available Castles are cheap compared to every new building you can build. They are also high on the list that puppets build first.
I'd still not upvote Neuschwanstein because it doesn't complement my playstyle. It's very good for wide empires and I almost always prefer to go tall.

 

[Leviat]

Castles are cheap and have no maintenance cost. And by the time you get Neuschwanstein, you should have built most of the essential buildings in most of your cities anyway. Additionally, it's one of the late-game wonders that the AI hardly ever bothers with, presumably due to not always having a city in the right spot or their overwhelming desire to build SoL. If you have the opportunity to do so, it's always worth going for, in my opinion. It's a nice wonder.

I agree that it is a nice wonder; it's still on the list for a reason. 6 gold, 4 culture, 2 happiness + 1/2 that per castle is a lot. But when I hit railroad, I rarely have all the industrial era buildings in my cities yet, and I'd rather finish those and start modern era buildings like research labs than Neuschwanstein + castles.

 

[Dogmouth]

Alhambra 12
Big Ben 19
Chichen Itza 26
Eiffel Tower 11
Great Library 7
Hanging Gardens 29
Hubble 21
Leaning Tower of Pisa 24
Louvre 29
Machu Picchu 27
Neuschwanstein Castle 14
Notre Dame 30
Oracle 31
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 24
Sistine Chapel 9
Statue of Liberty 7

SoL is still the worst wonder on the list. Concentrated hammers are usually better than spread out hammers because they benefit from modifiers, XP upgrades, etc. And again, the hammer investment won't be returned in time (I don't agree with Phil because I don't like unconcentrated hammers). Machu Picchu is a gold making machine that scales well. The extra faith is a nice bonus.

 

[nefloyd]

Alhambra 12
Big Ben 19
Chichen Itza 26
Eiffel Tower 8
Great Library 7
Hanging Gardens 29
Hubble 21
Leaning Tower of Pisa 24
Louvre 29
Machu Picchu 27
Neuschwanstein Castle 15
Notre Dame 30
Oracle 31
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 24
Sistine Chapel 9
Statue of Liberty 7

Never givin' up. Repeating vote on both

 

[Slvynn]

Alhambra 12
Big Ben 19
Chichen Itza 26
Eiffel Tower 8
Great Library 7
Hanging Gardens 29
Hubble 21
Leaning Tower of Pisa 25
Louvre 29
Machu Picchu 27
Neuschwanstein Castle 15
Notre Dame 30
Oracle 31
Petra 24
Porcelain Tower 24
Sistine Chapel 9
Statue of Liberty 7

Pisa - GP is awesome and +GP growth as well
Petra is overrated

 

[black_kitten]

Alhambra 12
Big Ben 19
Chichen Itza 26
Eiffel Tower 8
Great Library 7
Hanging Gardens 29
Hubble 21
Leaning Tower of Pisa 25
Louvre 29
Machu Picchu 27
Neuschwanstein Castle 12
Notre Dame 30
Oracle 31
Petra 24
Porcelain Tower 24
Sistine Chapel 10
Statue of Liberty 7

I think Sistine Chapel is underrated. Maybe it's not too important if you don't aim at a cultural victory, but if you do, it's a great boost. I don't mind that it is tailored to one victory condition, because Hubble is, too, and I still like it (like many others on this forum).

People keep saying Neusch is bad because you don't build castles. If you build Neusch and take Honor, that is a reason *to* build castles, all on its own.

From another point of view, that's why I like it less then most of the other wonders still on the list. To get a real profit out of building this wonder, I have to do *two* things I'd rarely consider - build castles everywhere (also in cities that are not along my borders and will thus most likely never be under siege), and take a policy that might not be bad, but has less appeal to me than Tradition or Liberty, and is not good enough to take it later on when other policy trees become available.

 

[Wolvenheart]

That's a flawed way of looking at it. Civ isn't an economy simulator like an RTS, where everything boils down to whether something will break even on the initial investment. Building SoL accumulates those 1200 hammers over a long period, in one city, but 'returns' that investment on accelerated production on all future units/buildings/Wonders you construct, throughout your empire. I'm also surprised it's stuck around this long - it feels too late in the tech tree for its bonus to be especially effective, and I rarely build it - but 'It doesn't give you 1200 hammers' is the wrong reason.

Completely disagree. Nothing I said suggests I don't understand the costs and benefits involved. (Factors like tradition, marble or Egypt's UA reducing costs; viewing it as a down payment; accelerated production later, perhaps on items that weren't available at the time SofL was built; essentially spreading production from the city that built it to every city with specialists.) I am saying that the costs involved take too long to be made up, and once they are the outcome of the game has probably been determined. Of course it is highly dependent on how you use specialists.

 

[nefloyd]

From another point of view, that's why I like it less then most of the other wonders still on the list. To get a real profit out of building this wonder, I have to do *two* things I'd rarely consider - build castles everywhere (also in cities that are not along my borders and will thus most likely never be under siege), and take a policy that might not be bad, but has less appeal to me than Tradition or Liberty, and is not good enough to take it later on when other policy trees become available.

You don't need Honor to get great benefit from Neusch.
Walls & Castles also boost your city strength rating, which increases your military power, which assists in dealing with AI and taking CS tribute.
Hell, try Gandhi out! With Neusch he gets +4 gold, +6 culture, +1 happy from every zero-maintenance mughal fort.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

defensive structures are also no maintenance cost and later game (when you get access to Neusch) you might have cities that dont really have a specific need so the castle can be a tide-me-over build until the tech you need is finished to switch production. if you went honor for the added bonuses it is even nicer but it isnt even necessary.

Alhambra 12
Big Ben 19
Chichen Itza 26
Eiffel Tower 8
Great Library 7
Hanging Gardens 29
Hubble 21
Leaning Tower of Pisa 25
Louvre 30
Machu Picchu 27
Neuschwanstein Castle 12
Notre Dame 30
Oracle 31
Petra 24
Porcelain Tower 24
Sistine Chapel 7
Statue of Liberty 7

I'm surprised how much i like the Louvre now. I basically get it because it is a direct 24 turns of Golden Ages for me. I rarely settle those GAs unless im going for culture vic, but 24 turns of golden ages are just good for every vic, imo, AND i usually get 2-3 CSs to like me even more. I like these CS quests that desire wonders, really helpful.

The chapel is too pidgeon-holed for me. Hubble can be useful for any tech race, diplo included. i enjoy it in games where im just getting more techs for mil units too, even to catch up the lower techs i skipped in the beeline.

 

[black_kitten]

Ok, I never played as Gandhi so far (just didn't appeal to me until now). If I did, and maybe I should, I would of course build his UB, and then I'd appreciate the bonus from Neuschwanstein.

As to the military power rating, I'd rather build some units to get this score up as they are much more versatile in offense and defense against the AI than walls and castles in cities that don't need them. I actually never bully city states, not only because it seems mean (and I prefer to be the 'good one'), but because the tributes never seem to be worth the attitude hit with both the CS and eventual AI allies and other AIs that pledged protection.

 

[nefloyd]

I actually never bully city states, not only because it seems mean (and I prefer to be the 'good one'), but because the tributes never seem to be worth the attitude hit with both the CS and eventual AI allies and other AIs that pledged protection.

Attitude recovers. If it's not a CS you're actively pursuing, why not get some gold from it? They won't all be protected, either, and in some cases it might be an AI that's gonna hate and war with you anyhow. Nobody else in the game cares at all if you take tribute from a non-pledged CS.

 

[PhilBowles]

Completely disagree. Nothing I said suggests I don't understand the costs and benefits involved. (Factors like tradition, marble or Egypt's UA reducing costs; viewing it as a down payment; accelerated production later, perhaps on items that weren't available at the time SofL was built; essentially spreading production from the city that built it to every city with specialists.) I am saying that the costs involved take too long to be made up, and once they are the outcome of the game has probably been determined. Of course it is highly dependent on how you use specialists.

The point I'm making is that you don't build things in a Civ game to "make up" the same cost you spent in the first place. In a hypothetical production city where you fill every specialist slot, +10-15 hammers a turn is a significant bonus to later production, particularly if that city also has percentage boosters like factories. It's irrelevant whether that actually amounts to 1200 over the course of a game; all that matters is whether you produce later buildings/units/Wonders significantly more quickly than you would otherwise, and using anything you'd have been able to build in the city in place of the Statue when it becomes available. As I say, Civ is not an RTS - you don't have a pool of resources accumulating at a fixed rate, from which you buy things when you have enough of said resource. As a result of this and limited production slots, overall expenditure is relatively unimportant, and the number of turns taken to complete the next item in the queue is the relevant consideration. And if you can accelerate production in multiple cities, whether or not they're production cities, that too is an important bonus - every city has to produce something.

 

[nefloyd]

Of course its relevant if you make up the cost over the course of the game. If you spent 30 turns building it and it only saves you 20 turns worth of production, why build it at all instead of going right to the remaining buildings? Unless you have no better choices or you rush it.

Same reason its great to just gold-purchase things like factories and hydro plants, workshops in new cities, etc. Every turn you spend building them is one you have to recoup before it starts saving you time on other items.