Wonders biased towards the U.S.?

[BearMan]

Maybe Syndey Opera House, as it's a pretty famous icon (although I don't think it's 'wonder' material),

Compared to "west point" (which i never heared of before civ4) and "mt rushmore" and "broadway", it is for sure wonder material.

I think the point of wonders in the game would be that most people in the world know them, regardless of what country they're from.

Totally agree, this is also why one can say that the modern wonders are biased towards the US. (-> They have picked alot of less well known stuff from the US and left out things like "big ben" etc...see my previous post).

 

[Older than Dirt]

Think about all the "American Wonders" they left out: Disneyland, McDonalds, TV dinners, Jazz, Iced Tea, Baseball, Chevrolet, the Death Ray, and Apple Pie.

 

[GIO888]

EXACTLY older than dirt!

I think we got off pretty lightly!

 

[gunkulator]

Compared to "west point" (which i never heared of before civ4) and "mt rushmore" and "broadway", it is for sure wonder material.

Yeah, but name another modern day military academy. West Point is arguably the most famous. I'll give you Mt Rushmore as being kinda lame, but the Sydney Harbour Bridge? Really now. Even picking from just the world's bridges, there are other modern bridges I would put in front of that one. Broadway and the West End are a bit of a toss up, however Broadway wins out by having a better song about it, George Benson's "On Boradway". The only song I know about the West End is the Pet Shop Boys "West End Girls". Ugh! No contest!

 

[Velvet-Glove]

If I had a vote I would include Sydney Opera House (a very distinctive cultural icon IMHO) and Red Square for it's fabulous architecture. As an Englishwoman I would love to see Big Ben make a comeback but I think, with 4 wonders, the UK is fairly well represented in the game so any changes/extras would be more fairly allocated if they were from another country/culture.

The only other military academy I know of is Sandhurst, a prestigious academy where all British army officers are trained. It may not be very well known globally, however. For that matter, I would argue the assertion that West Point is well known globally too.

 

[gunkulator]

Yeah, I guess there really aren't any well known modern military academies.

Red Square also seems like an iconic representation of a nation although the Kremlin forms one of its borders and that's already in the game. I believe most of it was built in the 1500s so it's hardly a modern era wonder.

Syndey Opera House? Absolutely should be in the game. It's famous all over the world.

Big Ben too. Who doesn't know about Big Ben?

Other modern wonders like the Chunnel or the Panama Canal should also be added.

 

[ZerrorR]

I think that "The iNternet" is presented under the label of the world project...

As for wonders... noone mentioned the Olypic games

 

[Evie]

The problem with "Sydney Opera House" is pretty simple.

"Sydney Opera House has been built in Paris."

It's for that reason that both the Great Library and Great Wall have their names shortened from the usual full versions (Great Library OF ALEXANDRIA ; Great Wall OF CHINA).

On the other hand, "The opera house has been built in..." just doesn't sound like a wonder. It would need a full name, but then, chances are, that full name (if it even exists) isn't well-known worldwide.

 

[Ursh]

I would really like to see the World Bank wonder put into the game.

 

[Sisiutil]

I see your point, Bearman. I live in Canada, so American culture dominates our point of view. Several tiles have flipped up here, I'd say.

I like the Americans I've met quite a bit, but--at the risk of making generalizations about an entire nation--they do tend to be myopic, culture-wise. I think the game designers and developers are fairly sophisticated, but they're still American and bound to have an American perspective, and dare I say a bias.

 

[ltischer]

As a born & raised American, yes there's bias in the game. I think it's just a natural result coming from American designers. Americans are much more myopic than the rest of the world. It's actually a pet peeve of mine that our education system doesn't put much more emphasis on world geography and world history. These are favorite subjects of mine, as is international travel (so far I've visited 18 countries on 3 continents and lots of islands).

As for other wonders for the game, I would love to see The Great Opera House (based on the one in Sydney - it's beautiful). Also, Big Ben should be added. And how about the International Space Station as a national wonder, but one who's benefits increase (for all who've built it) with each nation that completes it. You could also set one up called the World Radioastronomy Network that could work the same way.

Just my two cents.

 

[Uiler]

Some non-US wonders:

More modern ones:

Bullet train - probably best suited to a national wonder
Louvre

More ancient ones:

The Grand Canal
Terracotta army
Tai Shan (if there is any "holy place" in China this is it)

From wikipedia

Religious worship of Mount Tai has a tradition of 3,000 years, it has been practiced from the time of the Shang to that of the Qing Dynasty. Over time, this worship evolved into an official imperial rite and Mount Tai became one of the principal places where the emperor would pay homage to Heaven (on the summit) and Earth (at the foot of the mountain) in the Fengshan Sacrifices (封&#31146. In 219 BC, Qin Shi Huang, the first Emperor of China, held a ceremony on the summit in and proclaimed the unity of his empire in a famous inscription.

n total, there are 22 temples, 97 ruins, 819 stone tablets, and 1,018 cliff-side and stone inscriptions located on Mount Tai. A flight of 7,200 total steps(including inner temple Steps), with 6,293 Official Mountain Walkway Steps, lead up the East Peak of Mount Tai, along its course, there are 11 gates, 14 archways, 14 kiosks, and 4 pavilions.

The Temple of the God of Mount Tai, known as the Dai Temple (Dai Miao) is the largest and most complete ancient building complex in the area. It covers an area of 96,000 square meters. The temple was first built during the Qin Dynasty. Since the time of the Han Dynasty (206BC ~ 220AD), its design has been a replica of the imperial palace, which makes it one out of three extant structures in China with the features of an imperial palace (the other two are the Forbidden City and the Confucius Temple in Qufu).

al-Masjid al-Haram (The Sacred Mosque) at Mecca

Al-Masjid al-Ḥarām (Arabic: المسجد الحرام‎ ​ /ælˈmæs.ʤi.dæl.ħɑˈrɑm/ "The Sacred Mosque"), is a large mosque in the city of Mecca. It surrounds the Kaaba, the point which all Muslims turn towards each day in prayer, considered by Muslims to be the holiest place on Earth.

The mosque has always been an important part of Arab culture. In pre-Islamic days it was a site for pilgrimages by pre-monotheistic Arabs, who filled the Kaaba with idols of the gods they worshipped. This episode is seen as a corruption of what the Kaaba was meant for, and the fact that they had strayed from the path of God explains why God sent Muhammad as a messenger to mankind in general, and the people of Makkah in particular. Muhammad's grandfather, Abdul Muttalib, was a caretaker of the Kaaba, and Muhammad spent much time there in prayer and reflection. The current caretaker of the mosque is the King of Saudi.

After the Hijra, Muhammad was forced to withdraw to Medina. Upon his return to Mecca, years later, he ritually smashed all the idols in the Kaaba and cleansed it. This began Islamic rule over Kaaba, and the building of a mosque around it.

The Temple of Solomon

EDIT: Oops, I just realised - Tai Shan as represented by Dai Miao, the Holy Mosque and the Temple of Solomon are already in the game as holy shrines. So, just ignore what I wrote. I feel a bit silly now In my defense I never pay attention to the names of the shrines. And I always seem to be Hindu/Buddhist...

 

[caitlinm]

They used to have Sun Tzu's War Academy. They probably replaced it with West Point because they needed a military wonder later in the game. That's probably why the Great Wall got the boot too. Personally, I'd liked both back.

I strongly agree with the Sydney Opera House. If we can have Broadway, then yes. Big Ben is also cool and I'd like it to return.

I think they could put the CN Tower of Toronto of there. Wasn't it like the tallest structure for a while until the Sears and others Towers came along?

I would love to see the Petronas Towers of Malaysia just because they are so cool.

 

[kristopherb]

This is something I've been thinking about and I wonder if anyone else feels this way. It seems like the wonders towards the end of the game are strongly biased towards the United States. Is the game biased... or have no other nations done anything of worth in the past hundred or so years?

Look at the wonders towards the end of the game:
Hollywood
Broadway
Rock N' Roll
The Internet
Wall Street
Mt. Rushmore

As it is, I have a little beef with Rock N' Roll and The Internet being considered wonders, as wonders were usually things you could build. I think the internet should be a technology, not a wonder. As for Rock ' Roll... I'm not sure. (But on a side note, I wish they would bring back the Great Wall as a wonder.) Well? What do you guys think? Biased or an accurate reflection of our current history?

yes but it should give all cities walls and the its biulit in should get 50%bonus

 

[kristopherb]

Just so we're on the same page, here is a list of wonders by country. Admittedly I took my best guess at some of these so not all of them are 100% correct.

US (13)
Broadway
Hollywood
Mt. Rushmore
Apollo Program
Statue of Liberty
United Nations (Headquarters in US)
Internet (Technology originally developed in US)
Pentagon
Wall Street
Rock N Roll
Hermitage
West Point
Manhattan Project

England (4)
Globe Theatre
Stonehenge
Oxford University
Scotland Yard

China (4)
Three Gorges Dam
Forbidden Palace
Dai Miao
Kong Miao

France (4)
Versailles
Eiffel Tower
Notre Dame
National Epic (Icon is Arc de Triumph)


Egypt (3)
Great Lighthouse
Great Library
Pyramids

Greek (3)
Parthenon
Colossus
Oracle

India (3)
Kashi Wishwanath
Mahabodhi
Taj Mahal

Israel (2)
Temple of Solomon
Church of the Nativity

Chichen Itza - Mayan
Hagia Sophia - Turkey
Angkor Wat - Cambodia
Red Cross - Switzerland
Hanging Gardens - Babylon
Sistine Chapel - Italy
Kremlin - Russia
Spiral Minaret - Iraq
Masjid Al-Haram - Saudi Arabia

I have left off the following wonders/projects since I didn't know where to classify them:
Space Elevator
Heroic Epic
Ironworks
Palace
SDI
Spaceship Components

So by any measure, the US has far more wonders/projects represented in the game than any other country. As I see it this has been done for several reasons. First and foremost, the Civ IV developers are mostly American, and they made a game for a primarily American market. They included so many US wonders in order to make the game more accessible to their target audience. This is why the majority of modern wonders (13 of 18, by my count) are American.
MM

Three Gorges Dam is usa

 

[kristopherb]

They used to have Sun Tzu's War Academy. They probably replaced it with West Point because they needed a military wonder later in the game. That's probably why the Great Wall got the boot too. Personally, I'd liked both back.

I strongly agree with the Sydney Opera House. If we can have Broadway, then yes. Big Ben is also cool and I'd like it to return.

I think they could put the CN Tower of Toronto of there. Wasn't it like the tallest structure for a while until the Sears and others Towers came along?

I would love to see the Petronas Towers of Malaysia just because they are so cool.

big ben/housesof paliment could be a centre of goverment

 

[theimmortal1]

Wasn't the "Hoover Dam" a wonder back in the day?




I frankly don't see any bias.


You have to understand how they choose wonders. They don't pick the top 50 wonders, and then place them into the game. They figure out what parts of the game need wonders era and tech wise, and how to create balance with those wonders.

That being said, once they figure out they need a modern era merchant wonder or military wonder..they would pick the most famous wonder that suits it.

And frankly, what more famous than the American wonders? You would have only have a legit case on a couple of them, like with West End. But the vast majority, the American wonders are vastly superior and there is no other alternative.

The ones that could be changed are Broadway, Statue of Liberty, Mt Rushmore (this is where Red Square should come in, Red Square is much more famous than Mt Rushmore), and possibly Rock N Roll

Hollywood-Easily the most famous..what are you going to put in? Cannes? Cmon
Apollo Program-Again America was the first to the moon. The only other nation that at the time went to Space was the USSR. Makes no political sense to use the USSRs program over the Americans. Plus what exactly was the USSR's program called? If it even had a name, most people don't know it


United Nations (Headquarters in US)-obviously that has to be in

Internet (Technology originally developed in US)-obviously again has to be in

Pentagon-its a structural wonder and its the main military building for the strongest military in the world. Can you really think of another military building in this era that is more recognizable than it?

Wall Street-Again, whats the alternative? Its the center for the strongest economy in the world. Instead of Wall Street what would you want..a "Swiss Bank".

Rock N Roll-THis one is fairly borderline for me. They need another culture civ. And they wanted music. Western culture has dominated music, mainly the US and the UK. Be happy they didn't pick something to do with the Spice Girls, Satellite Radio, or ghetto rap.

West Point-Again best military academy in the strongest country in the world.
Whats the alternative? Islamic Extremist Terror Training Camps?

Manhattan Project-If you want nukes in the game, you need the Manhattan Project



Conclusion: People who complain about this are frankly jealous of the success of America. America has been the dominate force the past couple hundred years, culturally, economically, and through brute military might.

Plus you also have to understand how the eras work and the turn based structure.

If a civ dominated from 3000BC to 2000BC how many turns is that? 10? 15? How many wonders can you pick for a civ that is technically only dominate for 10turns? However how many turns are from 1800 to 2000? A lot more turns to fit in a lot more techs with have to include a lot more wonders.

 

[Bushface]

Three Gorges Dam is usa

No, it is definitely not in the USA but in China. as has been emphasized in at least two other threads in this forum.

Adding to Conqueror Worm's brilliant suggestions for other wonders, I would like to propose :-
Common Agricultural Policy. Can only be built by France, which then gets 10% extra cash per turn at the expense of all other European civs.
NATO. Project open to American and western European civs. 10% of all income reserved for military research, but not accessible.
Offshore Bank. Can only be built under Dictatorship: 10% gross income reserved for dictator's personal use.

Which leads me nicely to Skirmisher's mention of Palatul Poporului, a.k.a. the biggest white elephant in the world (and one which I have seen). This opens up a whole new class of "national wonders", to be a severe drain on the builder and offer no benefit, but which absolutely must be built as a victory condition if certain conditions are met, such as some number of turns running Police State. And once these conditions are met, the encumbrance cannot be halted until completion. Running Bureaucracy increases the cost after each five turn interval. I leave it to others to suggest a suitable thing for other civs (clearly a different name for each, but with identical costs) and for England would put forward the Millennium Dome as first choice.

 

[caitlinm]

theimmortal1, have you even read the thread?

Internet (Technology originally developed in US)-obviously again has to be in

That should not even be a wonder in the first place, it should be a technology. It would be like making electricity a wonder -- it's not. The internet should be a technology and you should get a free technology when you discover it, by the very nature of what it does.

West Point-Again best military academy in the strongest country in the world.

There are others. Ask someone who lives in the UK or China.

Wall Street-Again, whats the alternative? Its the center for the strongest economy in the world. Instead of Wall Street what would you want..a "Swiss Bank".

Except that The NY Stock Exchange was a copy of another country's. I believe in the UK, they have a Wall Street equivalent called the West End that was there first.

Conclusion: People who complain about this are frankly jealous of the success of America. America has been the dominate force the past couple hundred years, culturally, economically, and through brute military might.

Well I started this thread and I'm from America. I am typing this from my home in NY. But it's nice to know that you are dismissive of other cultures and you have a gross sense of entitlement.

China is going to be the dominant world power sooner than later, especially if we keep electing retards who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground, and if Civ's still around, it'll be interesting to see what changes.

 

[GABB]

In Civ IV all those wonders can be yours. You only need conquest … … If you hate some of them, again… … and raze the cities…