Wonders biased towards the U.S.?

[AvianAvenger]

but they are nowhere near as important on the world stage as their American counterparts.

Says you...

Do everone here a favour and leave the bullshite patriotic act off this forum. We have heard it all before.

If you have a lot of wonders, your civ is generally better.

Yes, is that why americas debt to profit ratio is the highest in the world and history, is it?

It seems to me that your wonders aren't working.

With alot of the comments you have made throughout your post its really no wonder why most people view america as the most ignorant & idiotic nation in the world, whether or not if you claim to be american.

Im sure its breaks your heart to know your beloved country is not the centre of the ****ing universe.

 

[theimmortal1]

Ah Avy, typical rambling on with no evidence.


Which wonders could be switched out? I've asked it a few times and nobody answers.

It is absolutely absurd that you people are so culturally ignorant not to concede the fact that America has quite a few of the most important and famous achievements of recent memory.

I nearly fall down laughing when you complain that we should take these somewonders out and add in other countries..namely these:

Apollo Program
United Nations
Internet
Pentagon
West Point
Manhattan Project

There are absolutely NO other choices even remotely close to those wonders. (Red Square is more in line with Mt Rushmore). If you even think that there is another wonder that should even be considered compared to those you seriously need your head checked.

Now with these:

Broadway
Hollywood
Mt. Rushmore
Statue of Liberty
Rock N Roll

Broadway could easily be Sidney Opera House, and in reality it should be. The SOP is much more famous.

Hollywood there is no counter. Clearly no counter with in the movie industry. What are you going to add, "Cannes movie festival". Now there are other industries and other buildings that could give happiness bonuses instead, but nothing with the profound impact as the main part of the movie industry.

Mt Rushmore should be Red Square.

Statue of Liberty..this is a little tougher. But think about the tech it goes with. Democracy correct? Now if you had to pick a wonder for Democracy, what would you pick? You could pick something Athenian, but the Parthenon is already off the board. The SOL fits the bill quite well.

Rock N Roll..I'm not even sure if this is America. Could easily be interpreted as British. Its a music genre, not sure how or why people are getting all anti-American over a music genre.



IMO, the Three Gorges Dam should be the Hoover Dam.


So after looking at the evidence, there are two wonders that could be changed from American wonders. Broadway to the Sidney Opera House, which is a lateral move. And Mt Rushmore to Red Square, which I think would be a very good change of wonder. Rock N Roll is arguably not even American. And the Hoover Dam is left out. Plus I would argue the WTC should be a wonder.

 

[Older than Dirt]

I have been to Mt. Rushmore three times. It is gorgeous and even better now that there is a walkway so you can get up close and underneath. But, even the Erie Canal is a better "world wonder" or the Eades Bridge (across the Mississippi River at St. Louis). What about that English Channel tube thingy? I can't believe it is real - not reall sure it is yet. When I flew over (actually I was in an aeroplane) the area I didn't see it. Maybe it is a fake, like men landing on the moon, eh?

 

[SLM]

...
You guys are just picking tall buildings out of thin air and saying they should be wonders. But if they were going to pick the most important tall building of this era, it again would be in America. It would be the World Trade Center.

Hmmm? I think not. If it should be a large building from the US it would have to be the Empire State Building. Built in a year as far as I know. These things take ages to build nowadays.

...
It is absolutely absurd that you people are so culturally ignorant not to concede the fact that America has quite a few of the most important and famous achievements of recent memory.

I nearly fall down laughing when you complain that we should take these somewonders out and add in other countries..namely these:

Apollo Program
United Nations
Internet
Pentagon
West Point
Manhattan Project

Why is it absurd? I do not consider most of these even to be wonders such as it is. UN? Pentagon? West Point? Internet a wonder?

Don't mean to bust your american bubble, but according to WikiPedia:

The American Society of Civil Engineers compiled another list of wonders of the modern world:
Channel Tunnel
CN Tower
Empire State Building
Golden Gate Bridge
Itaipu Dam
Netherlands' Tidal Defences
Panama Canal

I'm Dutch myself and don't consider the Netherlands' Tidal Defences a wonder, but hey, isn't this quite an objective list of modern wonders?

 

[Rex Tyrannus]

I'm Dutch myself and don't consider the Netherlands' Tidal Defences a wonder, but hey, isn't this quite an objective list of modern wonders?

Yes it is. With three American wonders: The Golden Gate Bridge, the Empire State Building, and the Panama Canal. Three of seven is a worse American bias than Civ.

Edit: I absolutely have to pick myself off the floor when reading that someone has such remarkably poor sentiment of Americans as to deny the Apollo program as a wonder. Even today, 40 years later, to speculate whether any other country could do it is a valid debate, but in 1969 no other country could have come close.

The Great Pyramid at Giza is a wonder because only Egypt could have built it in 3,000 BC. Apollo must have similar consideration.

 

[SLM]

Yes it is. With three American wonders: The Golden Gate Bridge, the Empire State Building, and the Panama Canal. Three of seven is a worse American bias than Civ.

Oh I don't mind the bias, as long as it's fair. Some of the wonders (pentagon, mt rushmore, internet, west point, broadway, hollywood, rock n roll) are highly questionable as being wonders.

 

[Instant_Cereal]

Hmmm? I think not. If it should be a large building from the US it would have to be the Empire State Building. Built in a year as far as I know. These things take ages to build nowadays.




Why is it absurd? I do not consider most of these even to be wonders such as it is. UN? Pentagon? West Point? Internet a wonder?

Don't mean to bust your american bubble, but according to WikiPedia:


I'm Dutch myself and don't consider the Netherlands' Tidal Defences a wonder, but hey, isn't this quite an objective list of modern wonders?

I don't think the Golden Gate Bridge belongs on the list and I'm not sure of the Empire State Building (it was quite an engineering acheivement in its time), but the Panama Canal definitely belongs on there.

 

[The Sleepy Vike]

I'm sure you know this but, the Great Wall WILL be a World Wonder. (Check out Warlords updates for info.)

 

[armchairknight]

The biggest wonder of all, in my opinion, is that we're still debating what's a wonder and what's not. Do we, as a group here, have a clearly defined list of criteria to base our passionate arguments on? Or is this by gut-feel and 'common sense'? Wonder says it all to me. The item in question should be awesome. But should it be a marvel to see? Or a marvel of effort? Or a marvel of concept? Or something else? If we can define our criteria, we might find common ground more easily and hammer out a list that we'll all feel good about before we reach page 12. Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

 

[dutchfire]

It's a game, not an imitation of reality, try to remember that for once

 

[scipian]

Says you...

Do everone here a favour and leave the bullshite patriotic act off this forum. We have heard it all before.
...
Im sure its breaks your heart to know your beloved country is not the centre of the ****ing universe.

Please do everyone a favour and leave off nation bashing. That's much worse than patriotism.

On the main note, most American buildings ARE the most prestigious/wellknown/most influential. Wall Street, Statue of Liberty, Pentagon. These are known by pretty much everyone. America is, there's no argument, the one of the biggest producers of huge modern wonders/culture. We've built many huge things that are amazing and wellknown. And often they have a much larger impact worldwide than other nations' stuff. For ex., Wall Street is much better known and more influencal than the British opposite. I'm not saying that American culture is better; I'm saying that it's better known which is the main criteria for a wonder.

 

[scipian]

Oh I don't mind the bias, as long as it's fair. Some of the wonders (pentagon, mt rushmore, internet, west point, broadway, hollywood, rock n roll) are highly questionable as being wonders.

Wonders are things that create a sense of awe or amazement or have a huge influence. At least in my opinion. I'd like to know if anyone else has a different definition. I agree that Rock'n Roll shouldn't be a wonder and Broadway might be better changed to Sydney Opera House. But the others have become world wide famous and are the most famous examples of each thing. Pentagon= most well known defence institute. Hollywood-Most well known film production. Mt. Rushmore= Most, or at least very, well known monument to modern day leaders. Internet, Manhatten Project, and Apollo are three life changing/well-known projects. America has many more modern "wonders" that are well known than any other nation.

 

[theimmortal1]

The biggest wonder of all, in my opinion, is that we're still debating what's a wonder and what's not. Do we, as a group here, have a clearly defined list of criteria to base our passionate arguments on? Or is this by gut-feel and 'common sense'? Wonder says it all to me. The item in question should be awesome. But should it be a marvel to see? Or a marvel of effort? Or a marvel of concept? Or something else? If we can define our criteria, we might find common ground more easily and hammer out a list that we'll all feel good about before we reach page 12. Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

Exactly. Architecture is one component, but in the modern era a not very important one.

The best wonder is a building/structure that is the MOST INFLUENTIAL and MOST WELL KNOWN building/structure for that particular tech.

This is not a debate on which building looks prettier. It is a debate if you polled one million people and asked which has had more impact on modern society..

And I keep asking, can someone please come up with a replacement wonder for these with that tech. I am not doubting there are other amazing things in the world, but to really think there is another space program as famous as the apollo program is ignorant.

I agree with Scipian here.

 

[SLM]

On the main note, most American buildings ARE the most prestigious/wellknown/most influential. Wall Street, Statue of Liberty, Pentagon. These are known by pretty much everyone. America is, there's no argument, the one of the biggest producers of huge modern wonders/culture. We've built many huge things that are amazing and wellknown. And often they have a much larger impact worldwide than other nations' stuff. For ex., Wall Street is much better known and more influencal than the British opposite. I'm not saying that American culture is better; I'm saying that it's better known which is the main criteria for a wonder.

"These are known by pretty much everyone" ... in america. The statue of liberty is of course well know everywhere, but Mt Rushmore & West Point.... And a lot of others just don't mean enough: Hollywood & Broadway, Pentagon (just another building), Internet (nice enough but not a wonder), Wall Street (pretty much well known but certainly not a world wonder). Don't misinterpret "everyone in the US" for "everyone". Think outside of the box. Broaden your horizons. Like I said, I agree to S.O.L. (already in it) and Empire State being a wonder. I also agree on Apollo Prog. and Manhatten Proj. being world projects in the game, but the others I mentioned above are just unworthy of being called a world wonder. The same goes for the Sydney Opera House.

If I should define "world wonder", it would be something like "something sublime to stand in awe of, almost worshipped and/or nearly impossible to have been built at the time of its conception".

 

[Rex Tyrannus]

I'll agree with you SLM, particularly about your definition. For me, though, the Internet does meet wonder by that definition. Have you ever asked yourself how the &$#! we can communicate like this? Nearly instantaneous and for a few shillings a month?

The Internet is the one thing on Firaxis' list that has changed my life more than all the others. I went to college and majored in music. But now, I'm a professional web programmer.

I owe my entire livlihood to something I never imagined ten years prior to its advent. That spells wonder to me.

 

[SLM]

I'll agree with you SLM, particularly about your definition. For me, though, the Internet does meet wonder by that definition. Have you ever asked yourself how the &$#! we can communicate like this? Nearly instantaneous and for a few shillings a month?

The Internet is the one thing on Firaxis' list that has changed my life more than all the others. I went to college and majored in music. But now, I'm a professional web programmer.

I owe my entire livlihood to something I never imagined ten years prior to its advent. That spells wonder to me.

Well internet is nice of course, I too make a living out of it, I met my wife on the internet and there hasn't been a day since years that I can remember I haven't been online. Still, why would it be a wonder? You used to have BBS's back in the early days pretty much doing the same thing just on a much lesser scale. If it's scale that makes the wonder, then you could argue that there are higher buildings (AFAIK) in Asia than in the US and I don't consider those a wonder either just because they are higher.

 

[Kushluk]

Broadway is rather lame I must agree. I even live in NYC! Mt. Rushmore is even worse, and to add insult to injury Rushmore is in the absolute middle of NOWHERE where nether americans nor forigeners will ever see it unless they go on a journey specifically to do so.

What to replace it with? Big Ben sounds like a good idea. The Sydney opera house I don't buy though. Millitary-Industrial complex sounds good.

 

[Fruit Pie Jones]

Well internet is nice of course, I too make a living out of it, I met my wife on the internet and there hasn't been a day since years that I can remember I haven't been online. Still, why would it be a wonder? You used to have BBS's back in the early days pretty much doing the same thing just on a much lesser scale.

I was one of those BBS people, and while Trade Wars was an awful lot of fun, it didn't change my life. The internet, on the other hand, has changed the way we communicate, learn, do business, spend our leisure time, etc., and it has done this for a significant percentage of the world population (which can't be said about BBSes). I definitely consider it a wonder of our time.

Big Ben would make a nice cultural-boost wonder, but what other benefits would it give? The ability for your Civ to finally have an answer to, "Does anybody really know what time it is? Does anybody really care?"

 

[Randle]

United Nations (Headquarters in US) - Built in the US because at the time, Europe was still War torn. On American soil, but not American.

Actually, the UN Headquarters is not in the US. The land it is on belongs to every member nation of the UN. So it's an international enclave surounded by the United States, but it is not in the United States.

 

[Randle]

I don't think the Golden Gate Bridge belongs on the list and I'm not sure of the Empire State Building (it was quite an engineering acheivement in its time), but the Panama Canal definitely belongs on there.

An interesting effect that the Panama Canal would could allow would be to allow the player to build a "canal" on any isthmus in the game that would permit ships to cross. (It would work similarly to having a city on the tile).