Worker Steal?

[Nick723]

In the Cookbook going on right now, quite a few people executed a worker steal from Sitting Bull. This is something I never do, so...without any further ado:
- when would you do this, and why?
- how do you get out and make peace?
- would you still open with a worker (so that you have 2) or in any circumstances would you open with something else (and rely on the stolen worker)?

The only thread I could find was this old one, so perhaps time for an update:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/immortal-worker-steal.351446/

 

[Fippy]

I do so in situations without too much risk.
High risk: Deity (Immortal and lower should usually be okay), roaming archer near my capital (might even make it impossible), stealing unit + worker might get killed.

In most other situations you can get out of war by either killing one of their roaming scouts (counts as war success which makes signing peace easier), or by just asking them after they talk again. Peacemongers give in faster than let's say Monty.
If they refuse peace you need a little more power (aka building warriors or agg barracks) and try again later.

In very early stages AIs have no attack units ready..Archers get the defend mission first until they become many.
So even if 2 sit in their city right next to your stealing warrior, those defensive units will not attack. At 3+ you can be concerned about losing your worker right away.

Worker first still makes sense, keeping in mind that you want double workers and stealing won't always be successful
Ofc HoF games aim at stealing them only..but they are not comparable to regular games where we use only 1 try.

Woodsman II warriors (or even better Axes) are very valuable for stealing again and again thru forests & jungle.
Cease Fire can be used now.
So taking some battles with animals for promos can pay off.

 

[lymond]

I'm a habitual worker stealer. But it's really about opportunity, and on high levels I'd classify it as a "gambit" per se. In most cases I'm already in process of building a worker first anyway, so I don't change that. The exception would be in rare cases where I was not building a worker first, in which case a stolen worker works out very well.

Anyway, when do I do it? Whenever the opportunity is there with a reasonably close AI. Sometimes its as simple as my exploring warrior stumbles right onto a juicy worker innocently building an improvement on the borders.

In some cases the AI will make peace immediately when that option is available. Seems to depend on the leader though. On high levels, AIs are going to start out with significantly more power than you because of all their archers but should eventually come around.

I play this a few different ways. I may look to make peace quickly. Or I may delay that to scout out their capital a bit and choke them....and scare their settlers. Or I may make peace (edit: ceasefire) so I can steal their next worker and so on. Also, if I feel comfortable in my situation, like quick access to copper or horses, I may screw with that AI for quite some time...totally nerfing them while securing the good city locations.

At a minimum though, stealing just one worker is going to set that leader back a bit..besides just the gain of the free worker.

Oh..and if I get a warrior to woody II warrior I can really mess with them.

Starts with Hunting though make all this a bit more unlikely.

edit: ah..good point from My on killing scouts.

 

[drewisfat]

It would often make sense to not build worker first; however, you can't know on T0 whether there's an AI close enough to worker steal or whether it will be successful. Two workers isn't exactly overkill, and is best followed up with early BW.
On deity you generally need to win a big battle or get tech bait to make peace -- which can be an issue if your target doesn't get alpha quickly.

Usually I'm more likely to worker steal with an IMP leader. This is a threefold reason.
1. Settler-first is viable with some starts + IMP, and even if that's not the case you're probably going to have a higher than usual city/worker ratio and can benefit the most from a steal.
2. Defending a single counterattack will typically give you a GG, so the deviance into more early units or techs like archery/masonry is rewarded.
3. Instead of tech trades to make peace we can use a cheaper settler to create a garbage border city and use that to broker peace.

 

[sampsa]

Very good points by the posters above. I'd like to add that immortal is probably the best level to do it. On deity you might soon regret it and on lower levels it comes later giving you less benefit.

edit: you could try starting immortal pangaea maps and always trying to steal. You'll get a hang of it pretty quickly.

 

[Nick723]

Thanks guys - very helpful! Will give it a go

 

[Anysense]

Immortal makes it easier. First, it is much easier to make peace. Second, they build improvements slower (1.5 times slower I think), which gives you a lot more time to do the job.
Slower game speed also gives you an advantage - more time to find and steal workers.

On marathon it is often possible to steal a whole bunch of workers before 3000 BC and on immortal/marathon the only problem is to stop stealing workers before they crash your economy.

 

[ArchGhost]

- when would you do this, and why?

The only time I would actually plan to worker steal is when playing on Marathon (massively effective) or a cage match situation (alone with single AI you intend to choke, 18 civs on a Duel map, etc) which favors foreknowledge of the map set up, at least the script and size. In more normal or random play, worker stealing is mostly opportunistic with chief factor being proximity and even then can be weighed against just an early rush designed to take settled cities instead.

Stealing workers is so stupidly good on Marathon I would probably always seek to do it on Immortal, if at least you don't suspect you're on like an Archpelago map or something with no victim. Each worker stolen saves you up to 30 turns of city idle, speeds your improvements to not-agonizing levels, and can really, really cripple AIs as they don't tend to use their workers effectively in the first place, which is exacerbated on Marathon.

If you are alone(ish) with an AI who isn't going to be useful for much, choking them can work as a method to get something out of them worthwhile by denying them land for yourself to take, stealing workers by killing settler parties, etc. Stealing workers/settlers regularly and getting peace between really ruins an AI as they slavishy replace each growth unit and hemorrhage combat units in the process. Personally I like to choke a lot playing as Pacal, Sitting Bull, or Charlie as they are quite suited to it with Holkan/Dogs/fast PRO archers. It's also good for Charlie because you typically need to do some teching anyway to give a worker something to do, which you can do while building a warrior (for initial steal) and then archer.

In 18civ Duel maps stealing workers basically gives you the edge to roll a bordering AI, and start the insurmountable snowball. Especially if playing a civ with a resourceless early unit. Whoa mama.

- how do you get out and make peace?

Raise relative power or get war success by:
-killing a unit (scouts are popular, can also defend against AI units successfully)
-increasing population (settle or grow a city)
-build a barracks
-build war units (not very effective in personal experience, as the AI will too)
-get lucky and have the AI lose units to barb combat

It depends on the AI, lower peaceweight leaders can be very vindictive and hold grudges. More peaceful leaders tend to tap out easier. Not sure what exactly it's tied to (unit courage?).

would you still open with a worker (so that you have 2) or in any circumstances would you open with something else (and rely on the stolen worker)?

Outside of the scenarios I listed above I probably would still plan to do a normal open, especially if on a civ with a Hunting start. If you start with a Warrior you always just poke around and see if you can get away with it. But relying on a stolen worker is quite risky especially if you have a good plan for your start.