Workers of the world, unite! [RFC RAND]

[BurnEmDown]

I know the civic switch was probably not important enough but I just couldn't stand having Bureaucracy and theology. Changing to Pacifism and Mercantilism was obviously good, but then we wouldn't have Viceroyalty, so I changed to it as well together with vassalage since we get an extra turn anyway. Vassalage and Pacifism can work together since even though pacifism adds to the cost of each unit, Vassalage gives a lot of free unit upkeeps (15 I think). Once we vassalise the Dutch and then the Germans our stability will greatly improve.

 

[onedreamer]

Got the file will play this evening.
Before I vassalize Netherlands and get into a war with Germany I'd like to know why. If it's only for a bunch of temporary stability points we don't need it, and if our main goal is winning the Space Race I doubt that vassalizing Netherlands helps. So in the end... what the heck is our ultimate goal now ?

 

[BurnEmDown]

It will also help with espionage, we can steal techs much quicker from a vassal.
Also eliminating Germany as a threat would mean that the only threat to us militarily will be a Vikings-Turkish-Chinese triple alliance against us.

 

[nody]

We can 'eliminate' the German threat by converting them to Confucianism.

Aren't they going to love us if we are the same state religion?

In other words I prefer a (friendly) inquisition over an 'Endlösung'...

 

[AnotherPacifist]

They will ALWAYS attack you if they have the means to do it (I think it's preset into the AI behavior between Germany and Russia). Unless you have no animosity to them (no border sharing, same religion, you've gifted them stuff that's more durable than 10g), or vassalize them, they will attack even when just cautious.

 

[Chieron]

We can 'eliminate' the German threat by converting them to Confucianism.

Aren't they going to love us if we are the same state religion?

In other words I prefer a (friendly) inquisition over an 'Endlösung'...

what AP said, plus, afaik in RFC nobody will love you for your religion, they usually just do not hate you all that much. (they tend to give +1 to +3 for shared, but -8 to -12 for different (less for the indifferent leaders) religions.)

 

[onedreamer]

We can 'eliminate' the German threat by converting them to Confucianism.

No, they have Theocracy and they are Christians. And yes, quite some leaders will love you for your religion, not Frederick though. Anyways, I donated him a confucianist but he disbanded it.
And no, Germany is not a threat at all. I can't hide I'm quite disappointed by how this game has been conducted strategically. Civics have been single handedly switched and in a suicidal manner, there isn't a long term strategy and Micbic disappeared. Now, yeah, every Czar adopts the strategy he wants, but switching civics is something that MUST be discussed beforehand, because it's not something to do every 10 turns, especially in Rhye's mods. We have Pacifism and speak of war, this means that as soon as we move our stack outside our borders, science must drop at least 10%. We have Mercantilism which can work for some time in a Pangea map but on a Earth map is simply masochist. I played my 10 turns without doing anything important for now (well, not much to do besides trying to save our collapsing economy), I hope we start discussions before taking strategic decisions and that we actually start to take strategic decisions because otherwise playing this game becomes pretty pointless. Who's our "enemy" now ? In the immediate future, our main opponents are China and France IMHO. See the save and express your opinions before declaring wars or switching civics, thanks.

1630 Research at 20% with -3gpt O.o. Turned OFF citizen automation and other AI Governor instructions. Looks like this age will be of economical fixup only. Merchants in Moskva (we could use a GM for Cereals Co.). Switched specialists in other cities (mostly engeneers because our cities need buildings fast). Workers to fix many odd improvements. Czar Drimerskoj I, against the opinions of his advisors, decides that the main enemy for the long time goals of the Rus are France and its ally The Netherlands. Germany must be helped somehow to stop their fast advancements, therefore the Czar arranges a research cooperation with the neighboring Germans. The secrets of Gunpowder and Paper are handed to Friederick in change for the secrets of Optics and 160 gold. Turned off espionage focus on Netherlands. Science to 30% +10gpt. Switch from Liberalism to Astronomy, due in 39 turns (we aren't the first to Liberalism and we just switched civics, it's pretty useless right now).

interturn: Russian spy caught in Germany.

1635 Jaroslavl Musket > Temple. Astrakhan Temple > Walls. Rostov Harbor > Walls. The AP asks me again for OB with all members. This time I go for yes.

1640 Moskva Bank > Theatre. Astrakhan Walls > Castle. The AP resolution passes (we have OB with Japan, which would mean a lot of commerce if we didn't run Mercantilism -they have 7 cities across the sea). Science to 40%. Astronomy in 26.

interturn: Friederick demands we close our deals with the Dutch. We agree, they were selling us smelly fish anyways.

1645 China and France are ruling the world... they are trading partners and are way ahead of us, they must be stopped.

1650 Moskva Theatre > missionary. Astrakhan Castle > missionary. Korinthos and Rostov > Castle. Confucianism spreads to Smolensk (it's China). The army is rested and moves from Astrakhan towards Germany.

interturn: Mongolia builds Tashkent in a crappy position inside our Rus land... (I forgot screens at home, sorry)

1655 Astrakhan missionary > Lighthouse. Nodygrad University > Market. Smolensk Theatre > Monastery. Missionary converts Buryngrad.

1660 Moskva missionary > wealth. Jaroslavl Temple > Market. Archangelsk and Peter > Lighthouse. Novgorod University > Courthouse. Science to 50% (+4 gpt). Astronomy in 15. Espionage focus on France.

1665 Army continues its march to liberate Aachen and Praha.

interturn: France wants us to cut deals with Germany, but we think otherwise. Met Victoria and signed OB. Peter's culture expand to include a fish.

1670 Kiev Bank > Theatre. Astrakhan Lighthouse > Caravel. Rostov Castle > Monastery. Moskva wealth > Settler.

interturn: Ethiopia collapses.

1675 Archangelsk Lighthouse > market. Peter Lighthouse > workboat. Corinth Castle > Temple.

1680 Azov Bank > Market. Peter workboat > Caravel. Astrakhan Caravel > harbor


I'd build a city north-west of Moskva to fill in some gaps (I marked the spot I think would be decent), since England is colonizing Finland... and declare to Netherlands first and France then. If you do, I'd liberate former german cities as we don't need cities there.

 

[nody]

Okay, please list some do's and don'ts before I begin my turn before I screw everything up...

 

[onedreamer]

From my POW:
- don't switch civics for now.
- don't declare to Germany. We have nothing to gain since we have too poor economy right now to further expand and we don't need any of their resources.
- If you declare to France and Netherlands (your choice) don't keep their cities. The Dutch Aken (Aachen) can be liberated to Germany as well as French Prague. Amsterdam could be kept though because it has the Spiral Minaret which would greatly improve our economy. French cities should be razed or kept temporarily and then if we vassalize them we can give them back. I didn't have time to assess French military though, but we aren't in great danger declaring since they must cross Germany to get to us and they are at war with them.
- We need a navy. I started building caravels in the Sea of Azov and Baltic Sea. Making contact with Native Americans could be a good idea.
- We need decent civics. First of all, we should decide right now if we aim for Free Market or State Property. This decision has big strategical impact. Free Market in RFC/RAND IMHO is almost a must because the plentiness of resources is good for corps, but if we plan to be a huge empire State Property could help, although with Pacifism we aren't going to fare well at war nor at expanding peacefully the empire (which would be much better with Organized Religion). So the first question is Free Market or State Property ? Right now I saw that Cereals Co. would give us +3/4 food. We could easily get to +6, and then run a good specialist economy, in this case Representation could boost our science considerably. But we have big cities which don't cross much so State Property would also work. I would pair State Property with Universal Suffrage, if we choose to be Communist. In the Legal civic I'd favor Nationhood because of the low maint. cost. Viceroyalty is pretty useless so I'd switch to Commonwealth if we can pair the switch with something else without adding one more turn of anarchy.
- We need a consensus on the ultimate goal and start working for it for real. Micbic vanished. Space Race is getting harder because we haven't worked towards it, but I'd still vote for it. Otherwise UHV is pretty much the only other option I think.
- We need markets/grocers. Yeah banks give 50% against the 25%, but when you have our low commerce, markets are faster to build and most importantly you can assign merchant specialists.
- We need to switch away from Mercantilism ASAP. So next research should be something like Economy or Liberalism > Scientific Method > Communism. If possible, we should trade for Liberalism. Stealing it isn't likely, Espionage is useless right now unless we create another Greay Spy, but it will be slow since we can only assign one spy per city. It will get better with Communism and Constitution. Maybe we can ask Mongolia to research Liberalism.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Yeah, Germany isn't a threat now, but if they vassalize to France or if they survive and get things like gunpowder (!) they will be later.
China is going to outtech us no matter what we do, as long as we're the same religion and maintain good relations they won't bother us.
Ceterum autem censeo, Carthaginem esse delendam. (except that I'm talking about Germany)

 

[BurnEmDown]

Free market I think will be best, I switched to mercantilism\pacifism hoping for a specialist economy but I guess it was too early.

If we run the most specialists we can in Moskva and maybe Kiev we could get some GPs fast and then run a golden age after switching civics to something better, so we won't collapse.
If we vassalise France I think it'll be the last aggressive thing we do unless someone will attack us and we'll have to eliminate him as a threat.

 

[Jusos2108]

I agree with onedreamer that things have sort of gotten out of hand and that we need a real strategy. Although, I think we should just forget the space race victory and go for domination, which will be easier at this point.

Our tech situation is really crappy and the only way to correct it is to get the Communism ASAP for the Great Spy and intelligence agencies, constitution for jails, and democracy for security bureaus. Espionage will be our strength since we have lots of cities. After we have all this we can direct our espionage towards either China or one of european nations. I would prefer China, beacuse it is the tech leader, they aren't that far away and we get spying bonuses against them from religion.

For these reasons I would adopt the authotarian civics when they are available.

 

[onedreamer]

China is going to outtech us no matter what we do, as long as we're the same religion and maintain good relations they won't bother us.
Ceterum autem censeo, Carthaginem esse delendam. (except that I'm talking about Germany)

Well, IF our goal was Space Race, then China outteching us would be a bother indeed. China has much higher research costs than we do, they outtech us only because a) they trade with France and b) because they have cities with buildings already done.
We can fix this by a) eliminating/puppetting France and b) improve our cities.
@specialist economy
I like it but the advantages of Mercantilism (1 specialist) aren't worth the loss of overseas trade routes, and Free Market has a maintenance bonus for corps which are very useful for specialist economies. If we were really huge and all others small (unlikely in RFC/RAND) then Mercantilism would be worth more.
I agree with Jusos to take a research path to emphasize Espionage. I doubt we can make it to Communism before China though (for the Great Spy).
I think we should now vote for 3 possible ultimate goals:
1) UHV
2) Space Race
3) Domination

If you have further ideas (Diplomatic?) please post them. I vote for UHV.

PS: a Great Person is due in Moskva in next turn. Merchant or Scientist. Maybe we can bulb it for part of Economy or Scientific Method.

 

[BurnEmDown]

UHV sounds good, we could probably easily defend ourselves and our technological situation isn't too bad, just gotta focus on it more instead of the military which was our focus from the start.

 

[nody]

So far:

- Great Scientist in Moskva, let him wait, next Great Person in 10 turns in Kiev, probably a Great Engineer which means Golden Age for AnotherPacifist?
- Declared on Netherlands, gift Aken to Germany.
- Traded Education for Astronomy with Arabia and get Dye from them for Deer.
- Next research: Music and then Military Tradition, because China already has it.
- Contacted Carthage (yes, they are still alive) and Mali, both are Islamic
- Building observatories in Moskva and Kiev
- Founded Caricyn on the spot Onedreamer had marked (how do you remove the sign: Next city?)
- Also, with Astronomy, Caricyn is 'class-3' city with free forge and aquaduct.

Questions:

- Shall I keep Amsterdam? I think yes, because of the Spiral Miranet.
- Do we need Confucianism in Amsterdam to make the SM do something?
- Do we change civics before the Golden Age and which should we change?

 

[Jusos2108]

Please aim for communism and forget useless music (totally tradeable) and military tradition (we steal or trade it later as we don't need it for anything). Nice trade for astronomy!

-You might try to run one spy in Kiev for the next ten turns, because we might get lucky and get a great spy
-Definetly keep Amsterdam
-The bonus comes from the state religion, but spread confucianism there anyway
-DON'T change civics, yet anyways, we need the techs to unlock the ones we want

EDIT: I would go for domination, because it's more fun, but the UHV is fine as well

 

[BurnEmDown]

I thought religious buildings like SM or AP or UoS get applied only to the state religion of the civ they were built in at the time they were built in? So for example if the Dutch were Christian and built the SM and then we conquered it, the bonuses will stay for Christianity still. And even if the Dutch convert to Confucianism first it'll stay with Christianity.

 

[Danger Bird]

I thought religious buildings like SM or AP or UoS get applied only to the state religion of the civ they were built in at the time they were built in? So for example if the Dutch were Christian and built the SM and then we conquered it, the bonuses will stay for Christianity still. And even if the Dutch convert to Confucianism first it'll stay with Christianity.

No, the bonuses apply also for the religion of the new owner, at least for UoS they did in the last game I took that over.

I vote for UHV as well, though I wouldn't mind missing it by a turn and doing space race. (We'd have to interfere with our rivals, of course )

And I also lean towards Free Market, corps (Cereal) for lots of food and a specialist economy.

EDIT: I will be online only a very little for the next 72 hours, but should be back more regularly before my turn comes up.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Yeah, SM and US apply IF you have the state religion there. So send a Confucian missionary there ASAP if you capture Amsterdam! (and whip some culture buildings there too).

Why give cities to Germany? We do not have enough cities for the stability bonus to apply.

I vote for UHV. But only if we eliminate Germany as a threat. (I'm going to be like Cato from now on)

 

[nody]

Oh oh! 2 turns left

Amsterdam collapses and French culture blocks my units to independent Amsterdam.


Should I declare on France? We could lose some units in the progress...

It wasn't smart of me to gift Aken to Germany, because the French took it the next turn.
But especially Prag blocks our way, should I take it?