World History Mod development thread

Sorry just wanted to clarify what I said before I get some confusion. The basic WoC lite CvTeam.cpp I was concerned about that I think I left it in. The RevDCM merge should have no known problems with the file. glider is building another RevDCM including some the merge changes now. So you might want to wait to see what he makes as well. And sorry for any confusion. I have not had time to update the older because testing the new merge. If you got any questions feel free to ask me.
 
So, does this mean you would like me to develop the idea of the dual executive?

Sure, if there's a point. I don't remember why specifically France adopted this. This may be useful information if you choose to include it.

I'm ********...how do I delete this post! DON'T LAUGH AT ME!

lol was it just a double post? I don't think you can

okay, not to load you down with ideas, but do you think world blocs such NATO, SCO and the AU ought be included in the whole "New ally system"
Kinda acting like the UN or something?

Well, I think, in the case of offensive alliances and defensive alliances, you should be able to refuse to go to war and break the alliance.

I also think there should be trade agreements and more-effective embargoing.

I also think there should be trade sanctions in an alliance like the UN, as well as relationship drops, for whenever you do something that the UN doesn't like.

But as for whether UN, SCO, NATO, etc. should be a seperate alliance, I don't know. What are your thoughts? I don't think NATO really deserves a seperate kind of alliance, however it would be nice to have something more economy and policy based, such as what the UN has, making use of member-wide trade agreements, and trade sanctions and relationship drops whenever a member does something the UN doesn't want, as well as a higher likelihood that UN members will join eachother in war.

Also, please provide some ideas for seasonal modifications in either this or the map thread. What should I have the game do for winter simulation in the north, and wet/dry-season simulation in the center of the earth? Just suggesting these modifications raises so many questions

ie if i simulate the snowcover, shouldn't tundra be produced near the summer snowline, to simulate winter for example in central usa?

should wet/dry season be simulated in the equatorial regions? how should i do this?

etc.


EDIT: @johny smith: alright, thank you. I found the download OK. I'm impressed, you can use as many civics as you want with your new scrollable screen?
 
Excellent! Caz I remember in the last one they all had to have aprox. the same number of civics

~~~

In an offensive pact, are you also obliged to defend? I think so, right? "whenever your ally goes to war" would include defending I think

Please offer ideas on wintermod and summermod!

OH, and I developped a huge number of concepts, which are on display in the CivJunction forum, under the WORLD HISTORY MOD MAIN PAGE thread. Let me know if there are any suggestions

EDIT: GeneralSpecific, I'll see if I can simulate those retaliations when I work on the AI of the leaderheads. Thank you

EDIT: and a question about multilateral pacts. Let's say USA and Canada have started a multilateral pact. If Cuba wants to join, and asks Canada, should it be able to join? My guess is no. My guess is you would have to ask the leader? But what if there is no leader per se, for example for the EU, though that's not much of an alliance. What happens then?

Kevin
 
Okay, here’s a very rough sketch of a proposed idea for population… Maybe an advanced/expanded cities report chart.
It’s to make population more In the game then just city sizes.
Propaganda, a new mechanism, can be used to sway alignment and city growth.
Propaganda, much like espionage, is altered towards whatever you pick, increased spending increases whatever agenda your trying to push.
Population can be forced into migration to other cities of yours, like colonies. You can use propaganda to ease the harsh responds of it. Populations of cities can be evacuated from danger zones to save your nations size and other such mechanisms can be used upon your citizenry.
Now, I don’t have civ4 so the pic is kinda rough, also less then half way through I decided you’ll get the picture without me having to do it all :p if it seems like just a blurt of nonsense… Well, bite me :p

Spoiler Artist Rendering :

All the other numbers aside from the population amounts mean nothing. :)
screen1copy.jpg


Population:

Total Population:

Military Personal (units) = Soldiers. Intelligent services. Military Personal counts as a portion of your Total Population, and cannot exceed that amount. This portion depends on your government. Normally your Military can be a percentage of your Total Population, this percentage increases with circumstances. Civics such as Martial Law increases troop limit.

Research Personal = Scientist. Librarians. Teachers.

Cultural Persons = Entertainers. Designers. Figure Heads. Writers. Architects. Speakers.

Trades Persons = Business Heads. Retail Employees. Advertisers. Financier Etc.

Research Personal, Cultural and Trades Persons, are a limited portion of your Total Population based towards scientific/cultural/trade advancement. The amount of persons is not controlled, though you can increase the limit of persons allowed by increasing spending on the area. Established Persons can be moved around your empire.


Work Force = Agricultural workers. Miners. Engineer. Maintenance Workers. Medical Professionals. Law-Enforcement Personal. Firefighters.
Your work force is the general labor of your empire. Each is a limited portion of the Total Population; the number of each can be switch around with each other and/or increased by more spending. Agricultural workers work on your landscape (excluding Mines). Miners work mines, rigs, drills and such. Maintenance workers are general workers all cities need to keep up, they don’t work any tiles or give any benefits, however, without the recommended amount your city could start to decay, which will reduce the output and population of the city. Medical Professionals keep the city healthy, they do not work tiles or give any other benefits. Law-Enforcement Personal keeps the crime rate down, which keeps people happier. They also help to counter enemy espionage and keep order when negative events hit. Firefighters do not work tiles or provide any other benefits other then helping to keep people happier and reduce the effect of negative events.


General Peoples = Unemployed. Under-aged. Restrained. Undereducated. Homeless.
General Peoples are a portion of your Total Population that do not provide any thing to your empire. They are effected the same as the rest of your population, and cause disorder, etc… General Peoples are more easily upset and sickened. Unemployed are the peoples that can be put to work with increases in funding in any working sector. Under-aged are peoples who are not of age yet and thus do not provide any benefits to your empire, however, they have the greatest effect on your empire in the long-run. If your empire lacks the Research Personal to educate all the under-aged peoples, then they become ‘undereducated’ whom do not add to the empire and are likely to become Homeless, who are a strain to your empire. Undereducated peoples slightly reduce the cities culture, and make the cities more unhappy or unhealthy when it gets unhappy or unhealthy. Homeless people causes unhealthiness, unhappiness in cities, reduces city income and culture. Restrained people are those who only have limited rights in labor, education and other areas.

Populations have alignment.
This could be towards; Ideologies, Religions, civics, ethnicity, national or even independents.
All people have alignment; they may align themselves with Ideologies, Religions, civics, ethnicities or nationalities, or independents.
Peoples from other nations will have alignment towards their native nationality and/or ethnicity.
Your peoples might fall in favor of a foreign Ideology; if they do then you face unhappiness, revolt, civil-unrest, and population deflection towards nations under that ideology, you also face the chance of terrorist/extremist and even open rebellion, until your nation adopts that ideology or you crush that support for that ideology. The same happens if they align themselves with any thing else foreign, religions, civics, ethnicities or nations or independents.
Worst of all, your units can have alignment towards a foreign ideology or whatnot. Units with alignment towards foreign elements will face the chance of unit deflection towards nations under those foreign things.


Each Portion of your population shows how much your losing in revenue to each, how much each is making in income, how much culture their putting out, their scientific out put, etc..


Population Deflection causes three things to happened; people from that city will migrate to another city (of which their deflecting to). The population of the city will be less likely to resist invasion (i.e. Partisan event). City defense will be reduced.
Unit Deflection causes units to flip to other side. Or cause a hidden –15% combat chance.

I can’t think of anything for the summer/winter mod atm, if I come up with anything I’ll let you know.
TRADING POSTS

Trading posts are specialized cities with reduced maintenance, growth and available buildings. They are designed to harvest resources and connect those resources to your empire (via waterways or a roadway connecting it to a city or another post connected to a waterway). While less miffing than a city, other nations, natives, etc. may not appreciate them.

A question: in real life, do these sometimes evolve into full cities? Should they be upgradeable?
I’ll say, yes. Most trading post established pre-modern-era have become cities by now. I think over time, population growth/heavy human traffic/wealthy environment should sift a TP into a city, but that you should also be able to upgrade/prevent from growing your TPs, IMO.

For a alliance of more then one partner, I think it should work something like this, (If it can, might not) If you want to join, you have to ask one of the members in the alliance. When you do, that member then goes on to propose your joining to all the other members, who all have to say yes for you to join. All via Diplomacy.
It's like, you ask for a pact. The other guy says yes, then he ask all the other members for, i guess, a renewed pact that has you in it. IMO :)
 
@ Grishnash,
Do you think that your population divisions could be affected by the civic used? How would the ownership of labor affect who works? Just curious, because I like where you are going.

@ Kevin,
You know, all the civics I posted on, I think, pages 6 and 7 are no longer applicable with the new economic and government civic systems I came up with?
 
YES. I like where this is going. I'm going to think hard about it and put it in the concepts section within the next few days. I definitely think civics should have an effect on these numbers, and possibly other things. And how'd you make the screen if you don't have civ4? Also, this is part of the info screen? If so, how can you report on individual cities as opposed to the entire empire? That was your goal was it not?

@GS: so the legal and economic civics no longer work?
 
Excellent! Caz I remember in the last one they all had to have aprox. the same number of civics

Well it is still the same way. It can be changed if needed. But it looks at the largest group of civics not an average of all. Based on the largest group it makes the panels. At least last on what I remembered.
 
@ Kevin,
The old ones aren't necessary because the Land/Labor/Capital civics can essentially create any economic system you want, with a bit of tweaking, of course. The legal civics aren't important when we consider the new government organization system because we know who is writing the laws. The only three that could remain would be customary, civil, and common law, although I do not think the differences will be significant enough to warrant their inclusion. Monetary civics are to come, they tend to require more research.
 

Attachments

My Winter/Summer Mod suggestions (some of which i may have said earlier):

For Both:
=>A kind of macro-seasonal effect, where the transition from summer to winter and back takes place over several turns (which in game time is several years)

=>No python based graphical change, lest the games slow down to a memory-killing, mind-numbing crawl.

Possible wintermods

=> Increased maintenance for cities hit by cold winters

=> reduced population growth for cities hit by cold winters

=> Increased income from snowy areas, perhaps, from tourism

=> effects on farms, due to cold

Ideas for Summer Mod =>

Increased income during summer for coastal tiles in hot areas (beaches and stuff)

Increased food on rivers (maybe, i think that makes sense)

Decreased food from plains, especially if near desert or not near rivers
 
@kevinman4404

I looked at the civics screen again because of your comments about the size.

Anyway it would take me a little more work to make a perfectly dynamic one.

But here is something to help you if you try it out.

There is a line at the beginning of the the file.

"self.USER_ADJUSTMENT = 100"

If you change this the size of the boxes for all of civic categories increase or decrease.
 
@johny smith: so I just put in all the civics I need, and then adjust it till it looks good?

@moopoo: alright. but do realize that summermod is simulation of wet/dry season (not summer), and I know there have been rumours of lots of lag but I have so far only had flawless graphic changes, despite having a bit of an outdated computer. I'll have to test this on the North America Test Map. And, should winter also affect areas that aren't typically covered by snow in the winter, ie central USA?

@GeneralSpecific: Ok
 
I'm just wondering, are you using city name maps? Even if you're not doing it for the whole map (well, that would take a lifetime), it would be a nice touch in Europe, east coast of NA, north Africa, Egypt, Mesopotamia, and Mesoamerica.
 
I thought the lag is simply because python has to go through and test every tile to see if it needs changing. If you can keep it at a reasonable speed, then graphical changes are most definitely welcome :D

And you're right, i completely forgot the whole wet season dry season thing, I was thinking about lack of rain during summer down where i am. I suppose if you keep dry season normal, wet season could mean increased food production, unhealthiness, and increased chance of python events such as monsoon/typhoon/cyclone etc.
 
@moopoo/deanej: it's not like I know how it works, but so far it has given me no trouble. I will have to test it on the larger (North America and World) maps before I can know for sure. However, my computer is no longer strong enough to run the world map. It is so full and such a mess (my computer). Then again I can always ask someone else to test it

@zachscape: yes, I will be using a city name map, for mainly the areas mentioned. However, this will likely be in only one set, or one set plus instances where I know the name of the city changed once it was taken over. There are, like you said, some areas that I probably will skip. For example, I have fantastic city lists for the Creek, Shawnee, Cherokee, Iroquois, Huron and Sioux. However, I could never find the exact location of each of those cities. Most of the alternate city name maps will be small. For example, I wouldn't want the Huron's capital city to be called Toronto!

I will be busy for the next 6 days. Whatever I do will be limited to replying in the two forums. After that work will resume.
 
What I think Gazius is saying in that last part is that in RoM, Democracy and Federal are in the same category, when in reality they are not contrary ideas. Federalism (and its application, the Federal Government) means a vertical division of power between the central government and its provinces. There have been federal democracies.

This is what I meant, just was struggling to come up with a better way to disucss how you divide power in your realm. Although Civ IV makes you an absolute ruler, will we see divisions of power? To run a feudal system, you depend in part on the power of the aristocracy for your own power, and must appease them somewhat. Under a federal system power is shared between the national government and the lower entities.

Basically, will we see a set of civics for power devolution, and the intricacies that go with that, or will the player remain absolute ruler with few internal concerns? In regular civ your biggest worry about the center of your nation is how long it takes to build that whatever. This I believe is in need of change, especially if your a city with an empire like Rome. Or another example of power relations, what about Margraves and their special appointments for defense of the Holy Roman Empire for being border states?
 
@ Gazius
What I have came up with for Kevin as far as a vertical division of power is this:

City-State : Cities mostly independent from political capital
Confederation : Powerful States with borders governed by a weak Central Government
Vassalage : Governance through social hierarchy, no states.
Federation: Power is shared between central and state governments
Unitary : Central Government is supreme

Vassalage being the feudal system you were refering to; as of now I understand feudalism to extend beyond the political rhelm and into a socio-economic-military rhelm so I didn't name the division of power as a "feudal" one.

I posted in post 532 a system of government I am working on and is, as of now, the "working" civic idea for the mod at the moment.

It divides power options into Singular, Shared, and Divided (a horizontal division of power), with even more subdivisions.
 
:bump:

Nearly done with the Off. Pact, there should be a working version posted in this thread within the next two weeks.
 
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