World History Mod development thread

[kevinman4404]

Well, do you want that, or do you want the non-working options to simply be unavailable? Though, that is a slightly different topic

~

I counted a total of 285 civs on my current list, which will go down a minor degree as I do more research.

For anyone who helps with civs, there is now a new field: ReviveChance, as any civ in an RFC-based game has a chance of revival. For most it will be 0 or 10%. However, some civs were simply not meant to die, and some weaker civs just like to endure. This is also effective as the mod is VERY long and civ was designed to be fast-paced, so this may counteract super-early deaths.

Luckily (or unluckily, depending on how you view it), there are 13240 turns in the game up until 2010AD. Of course, no civ in the mod has really lasted that long (with a few almost-exceptions), and I don't think it is safe to say you will survive that long no matter how good you are (I plan on the game being fairly hard). It is sort of designed for you to pick a part of history/a civ that interests you and play it through it's history (until you die), trying to accomplish its UHVs at the same time.

The current turn per era system:

1 turn per year for ANCIENT ERA = 4000
2 turns per year for CLASSICAL ERA = 2200
4 turns per year for MEDIEVAL ERA = 2600
8 turns per year for INDUSTRIAL ERA = 1560 OR 12 turns per year = 2340
48 turns per year for MODERN ERA = 2880

TURNSTODATE = 13240

perhaps it's a little too many turns but at least the balance is there! (if I were to cut down, which is unlikely, I would just scale everything down)

 

[GeneralSpecific]

@Kev,

I would include them, nonetheless, and, if possible (and I believe that it is) we could use Rhye's stability system in two ways:

Internal Tension
External Tension

Movements outside of the government (external tensions) can cause instability if the government refuses to create the desired institutions or power structures.

Divisions within the government (you guessed it - internal tensions) could also contribute instability depending on whether the power structure fosters inter-branch or inter-agency conflict.

Again, both internal and external tensions may cause a dissolution of the government when the government attempts to act on a situation.

EDIT: BTW, I am down on my knees man, begging you to increase the turnage for the industrial era...no real reason, I just always felt that the industrial era was short (and it was) and underrepresented.

 

[kevinman4404]

Well, that's fine- if it's not in RFCEurope I don't know (100%) if I'll be able to use it- but I will certainly try (and likely it will work)... and it might be in it already...

BTW I don't know what inter-branch and inter-agency conflict are, those sound like political studies terms

Do you just think the game's representation of industrial era is short, or my proposed 1560 turns? While it's not really short I think it has room for a few more turns, though I don't want as much as the entire medieval period (though close). I think what I might try is 12 turns for industrial era, does that sound ok?

Also, I am seriously debating cutting all those era turns in half- so it would read something like

0.5 turns per year for ANCIENT ERA = 2000
1 turns per year for CLASSICAL ERA = 1100
2 turns per year for MEDIEVAL ERA = 1300
6 turns per year for INDUSTRIAL ERA = 1170
24 turns per year for MODERN ERA = 1440

@everyone: is this ratio ok? should i keep it as is or split in half like i just showed?



@genspecific: i would recommend posting your ideas for a civ system soon- midterms (and essays) are coming up soon! In any event I will barely be around starting about a week from now to a week and a half after the start of Nov. So I won't be around for a period but I will be around until then and while I'm gone you can discuss it with everyone else

 

[GeneralSpecific]

@genspecific: i would recommend posting your ideas for a civ system soon- midterms (and essays) are coming up soon! In any event I will barely be around starting about a week from now to a week and a half after the start of Nov. So I won't be around for a period but I will be around until then and while I'm gone you can discuss it with everyone else

@Kevin

Essays and midterms...me too. I am almost finished with my research and development for the civic system. I think you will be pleased with it, for now I am just trying to round the edges so as to have as little opposition to it as possible. I think that it will be in the interest of the mod if I simplify it a bit to avoid angry dissent.

And about the internal/external tensions. My main goal here is to have events outside of government (external tension) like uprisings, disasters, political movements affect stability. Stability is positively affected (and conversely, negatively affected) if the government acts decisively and favorably according to the public (this factor becomes even more powerful with the invention of mass-media).
Events within government (internal tensions) like assasinations, conspiracies, royal marriages, and power struggles also affect the stability of the government. In both cases, stability functions as it does in Ryhe's where high instability results in seceeding provinces, among other things.

Also, @anyone,

Would it be possible to code a civics screen in such a way as to allow the player to create and name a branch of government and then give it power and structure it? Opinions are welcome but I would greatly appreciate an answer to my question.

 

[kevinman4404]

@GS: no problem! sometime after november hits we'll get civics going then

What do you mean by branch of government, government type?
And what do you mean by give it power and structure it?
I'd probably know if it can be done or not

Kevin


also, ive started trying to get the North America test mod working, though it will take a while

for now i think ill go with half game length

 

[kevinman4404]

@Grishnash (when you see this): I am adding to African civs. There may be more, but I feel the need to add Sokoto and Segu, as they were, in their prime, very strong regional powers. I also want Hausa- this consisted of many states, some of which even had their own vassals. I am also somewhat compelled to add Lunda (to fill out the region) and Ougadougou (vassalized nations around it) and Rozvi. There may be other changes, but these are those that I can remember. For now, it is safe to assume that these civs will be present. I am also doing research into Zanzibar and Fez (both unlikely).

~

There are huge civ list modifications happening. There will be a few additions to Mesoamerica. Changes to South America are unlikely but possible.

There are two new religions (for sure): Teotl and Intiist. There are two groups of religions: worldly (spreading, uniting religions) and regional. These would be regional. So instead of boosting your relations with brethren in faith and spreading, these religions are mostly so you can build the appropriate religious structures and units. In the case of the Teotl, it'll actually encourage wars (ie for sacraficial reasons ie flower wars). An Egyptian and Greek religion are being considered. Ibadi (Islam) will also likely be implemented in Oman and Zanzibar if included.

It is unfortunate that the level of detail I can go into goes so so so so so much farther than this, and I don't want to feel like any civ has nothing much to do, or that it is on too worldly a scale (ie too much revealed too quickly, ability to travel and explore really quickly). I hope to somehow correct that, though I don't know how yet (ideas?). Lots of unincluded civs will be represented by independents.

And for any historians: what civs would go under jainism, other than the one I found, Solanki? What state did it originate in?

 

[Grishnash]

Hey, sorry I've been distracted lately. I'm working on Ethiopia right now, I lost what I did before in a computer crash So I'm still working at the list As for Sokoto and Segu; Sokoto is already in my list, It's the Fulani Empire (aka Sokoto Caliphate). Segu I'm not sure of, first it's west African, and I don't know how much civilizations West Africa can hold, it already has 12 Ancient Kingdoms and Segu was roughly in the same place as at least two. But I'll still do it if you want.
Hausa, as you stated was not a single state, I don't think it was even a loose confederacy. And the Fulani are more or least the Hausa so if I were to put in the Hausa would they be the same civ as Fulani or a new civ to precede the Fulani. Which I can see, because the Fulani came about due to the spread of Islam, Hausa would be able to survive by preventing Islam to spread throughout West Africa.
Did Lunda.
Ougadougou also in west Africa and not very significant and also I'm not sure if it was a single kingdom but can still work.
Did Rozvi.
I'm really not sure about Zanzibar, it seemed to me to be a mere part of the Oman and nothing more then a petty vassal till independence.
And Fez seems more a part of Moroccan history...

Good luck with the mod Hope things come along :

PS: I'd prefer the longer timeline JMO

PSS: Punt > Aksum >Ethiopia. That seems to be the historic line of the Ethiopian Civilization, however, that would put Ethiopia's starting date to the same as Egypt, 4000BC (or perhaps 3000BC)... Comment?

 

[Gooblah]

And for any historians: what civs would go under jainism, other than the one I found, Solanki? What state did it originate in?

Ummm....well, Parshva, the supposed 23rd Tirthankara of Jainism and earliest historical figure considered a Jain leader was born in Varanasi (Benares) in the 9th century BCE...odds are that Varanasi was controlled by the Kashi Empire (which has Hindu significance in the fact that it was controlled by the Kurus of Mahabharatha fame).

 

[kevinman4404]

Woops- you're right, Sokoto is already present with Fulani. The fact that Hausa was a very loose confederacy isn't a huge problem; Fulani is sort of the same thing, to a slightly lesser degree maybe. But apparently Hausa is closely related to Fulani, to the point that they're not really distinguished. Perhaps a merger? EDIT: oops, you mentioned that, I don't know whether it should be one civ or two, it's up to you- don't worry too much about scale. Segu's positioning shouldn't be a problem- it lies further west from the conglomerated states around Nigeria, and is south of Mali/Songhai. It will be Nigeria that will be overcrowded. The scale of the mod isn't a concern as long as the basic feel of the game is being met. IE no nations having not much to do. Ougadougou is not terrrribly cramped, being North of Ashanti and South? of Mali/Songhai (I think), but we shall see. This one is a weird one, being sort of part of a very loose confederacy, and having other parts as vassals. So, it would probably be all parts combined (Mossi Kingdoms). My suggestion would be to give it a try, though I can't predict its faith yet.

I don't think Zanzibar will be in it (so no need to research it). I just got my hopes up seeing as it has Omanese religion. Fez will not be included.

EDIT: I'm not entirely sure Punt is a definitive civ in the sense we are looking for, but then again I don't know much about it, and I'll leave it entirely up to you. If you choose to use it it would be nice to have it well-represented ie UU? UB? UHV? for the appropriate time period. A reminder- please represent Axum, with UU(s) and/or UB(s) and/or UHV(s). So make sure that for UHVs you have at least one pertaining to axum, and try for the same with UUs and UBs

My main concern for a longer timeline is the very small scale of stuff like travel, exploration- it would take a scout from Paris only 17? turns to reach Moscow. And while that might not be so bad, it becomes bad when that area starts off undiscovered, so stuff is revealed wayyy too quickly. It would take a ship from Castille only 9? turns to reach Newfoundland. Remember, the game is either 6500 or 13000 turns long, from 4000bc to 2000ad. These aren't the only issues, just a glance at one element, but a lot of things happen way too incorrigably quickly. Does anyone have any suggestions/opinions on this? Does anyone else favour the super-long timeline? Is the half-timeline neccessary? Does the half-timeline have a reasonable number of turns?

The siege system will definitely help slow down conquest, though other measures will be necessary. I don't think stuff should just flip. But that will be for later!

@Gooblah: thanks. I'm guessing Hindu significance would mean Kashi was technically Hindu? This doesn't bode well for Jainism, that the founding civ doesn't even use it as its religion.

Does anyone know any states that were Jain?

 

[Gooblah]

@Gooblah: thanks. I'm guessing Hindu significance would mean Kashi was technically Hindu? This doesn't bode well for Jainism, that the founding civ doesn't even use it as its religion.

Does anyone know any states that were Jain?

Well, the Magadha Kingdom in modern-day Bihar (the predecessor state to the Maurya Empire) could probably be considered Jainist for a few decades before switching over to Buddhism (which was founded there)..

 

[Grishnash]

Woops- you're right, Sokoto is already present with Fulani. The fact that Hausa was a very loose confederacy isn't a huge problem; Fulani is sort of the same thing, to a slightly lesser degree maybe. But apparently Hausa is closely related to Fulani, to the point that they're not really distinguished. Perhaps a merger? EDIT: oops, you mentioned that, I don't know whether it should be one civ or two, it's up to you- don't worry too much about scale. Segu's positioning shouldn't be a problem- it lies further west from the conglomerated states around Nigeria, and is south of Mali/Songhai. It will be Nigeria that will be overcrowded. The scale of the mod isn't a concern as long as the basic feel of the game is being met. IE no nations having not much to do. Ougadougou is not terrrribly cramped, being North of Ashanti and South? of Mali/Songhai (I think), but we shall see. This one is a weird one, being sort of part of a very loose confederacy, and having other parts as vassals. So, it would probably be all parts combined (Mossi Kingdoms). My suggestion would be to give it a try, though I can't predict its faith yet.

I don't think Zanzibar will be in it (so no need to research it). I just got my hopes up seeing as it has Omanese religion. Fez will not be included.

EDIT: I'm not entirely sure Punt is a definitive civ in the sense we are looking for, but then again I don't know much about it, and I'll leave it entirely up to you. If you choose to use it it would be nice to have it well-represented ie UU? UB? UHV? for the appropriate time period. A reminder- please represent Axum, with UU(s) and/or UB(s) and/or UHV(s). So make sure that for UHVs you have at least one pertaining to axum, and try for the same with UUs and UBs

Alright, I'm not sure what I'll do with the Hausa, but for now I'll see if I can't forge two separate civilizations.
I'll look into the other civs as well and see what I can do.

Yeah, the thing was Punt is that not much as known about it yet... The darn people didn't store their history on computers like civilized fork
Speaking of Ethiopia, you want a UU/UB/UHV(?) for each Punt - Aksum and Ethiopia?
That would lead to Ethiopia having three or more Unique Units, buildings and more then nine UHV conditions and I just don't know if that's a really great idea. For one, no other African civ has nearly as much, and that would take a lot of coding (the reason no other African civ has nearly as much...)
But if you still want a U for each stage in Ethiopian history, then I'll still work on it

Another question that came to mind is about Egypt. I've only done ancient Egypt before it's fall. Did you want the Modern nation of Egypt as well? If so, I could start on it later.


One the timeline: I myself thinks it's better that it'd only take a scout 17(?) turns which would equal what, 8 1/2 years to go from Paris to Moscow then taking it 17 years to do the same (Classical timeframe) as it didn't take Napoleon half his life to reach Moscow (Though it nevertheless did end it )
On the other hand, the ship taking 4 years is longer then it took Chris old boy, but for Game Play that would be 16 turns (Medieval Timeframe)... which now that I think of isn't that bad... Ah, but that's just my opinion...
Anyone else have some thoughts on the timeframe?

Caution - The following contains gory images and should not be viewed by the weak at heart.

Spoiler Happy Halloween :

 

[nutnut]

The darn people didn't store their history on computers like civilized fork

Yeah...

 

[kevinman4404]

Modern and ancient would be great. They are very far apart

Well, ok, I don't mean the UU, UB, UHV thing strictly- just be sure the different important time periods are represented (so it doesn't feel like we're excluding any).

On second thought, 17 turns is pretty good. However, a ship from Castille to Newfoundland taking 9(?) turns is very fast, for something so epic. What you must understand is that, due to the fast-paced nature of the game sid designed, the speed of the units etc. and the speed of the turn-system in a long mod such as this clash horribly. So really, it is impossible to say that 17 turns is 8 1/2 years. I feel like these are two completely different sets of time.

Ignoring that, another problem that still remains is stuff being revealed way too quickly. Any suggestions?

(Good luck reading these long-winded thoughts )
Work on this will resume probably next weekend (and hopefully civs too). Sorry for the big pause. There is still a lot of artwork for me to do- I might leave out a few UUs/UBs that I don't know enough about (ie in terms of what they look like) for the sake of getting something released and building from there. But seriously, don't expect much at all from the first release. It will be a working engine, with North American civs, most UUs etc., some other art, a couple game mechanics, a north-american version of wintermod and icemod just so i dont feel like i wasted my time on the world one (which is currently taking too long to do it's work for me to include), and a non-working tech tree (it will take a while for me to get the timespan right for techs, not to mention the tech tree is kind of on hold right now- I will need assistance organizing it later on... though I really need to find a way to visually assemble it. And I still need to figure out the different tech trees. These aren't really different tech trees but some techs are only available through research to certain generalizations (ie european, native)). But yeah it will seem very empty on first release.

 

[moopoo]

WOW. i don't think 9 turns to cross the atlantic is too fast at all.

 

[Allan79]

Hey I have been looking at this mod for a while now and I have a comment or two.

This looks to be a very ambitious mod and a fascinating scenario. I have found a mapoutline in the civjunction forum. Is this a base for the settler/wars maps?

Are there suppose to be citynamingmaps in the mod like vanilla RFC? And are there any natives/barbarians/independents in WHM or this "covered" by the sheer number of civs?

I have been looking at the civ describtions of some of the civs and I couple of things:

VIKING EMPIRE (formerly NORSE EMPIRE?)
SWEDEN
NORWAY
DENMARK (formerly JUTES)

Well, I don't know if an idea of not having the vikings in the mod as they were from the three nations Denmark, Sweden and Norway.
RobinHat has very good description of this herehttp://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=335344
And Norway should be a part of the Danish kingdom until 19th century were Swedish toke over. And Norway didn't get independence until 1905. So if you want Norway in the game it should mainly be as a modern civ imo.

By the way are all the info in civjunction up to date?

 

[kevinman4404]

@Allan79, nice to see you here!

I am having problems viewing that particular thread on civjunction. Either the site is experiencing difficulties or it is my university internet. Anyways, the information provided in that specific thread is not accurate. For example there are 10 colours for war maps. And I doubt the outline is up-to-date. I am currently in a very busy school period- I will update it soon- Moopoo is waiting for the outline/information too

There is a city-naming-map, though this will probably only be set in one language, and is not too important (in the grand scheme of things). Though actually I/anyone should probably do N/S America (in the language of the main civ controlling the city, unless the alphabet is totally different). I'll add this to the jobs listing.

For the Scandinavian civs, I just hadn't had the time to look at it, though I knew Vikings would pose difficulties. Vikings would have probably been removed. However this has made it a lot easier, not needing Norway. I might make it a modern civ... not sure yet though. This is also great because mostly all I have to do is divide the current settler map (Sweden east part, Denmark west part)(though of course you're free to correct it to your heart's content)

Well, CivJunction is the most up-to-date. There are several parts with information that has been found and not yet listed, and there are for example several lists which may conflict with eachother. I'll try to reduce some confusion in the civlists.

9 turns, compared to the original game, probably isn't a ton more. But the mod is a ton longer. I just find it needs to be harder. I doubt it was that easy to cross the Atlantic without losing course or shipwrecking. I'm thinking I could make it a little longer (how, I don't know)(of course, with the addition of dynamic seatravel). However, it certainly shouldn't be revealed that quickly, if it's never been explored before. Again, way too easy. But I don't know how I would slow it down.

So it's not so much the turns it takes, just how easy it is, especially when you're the first one traveling a stretch of ocean, or it is your first time travelling a stretch of ocean.

I'd love it if it felt like you had to push limits hard to first get to North America. Not simply click Newfoundland and wait 9 turns, which doesn't give much time for naval events, etc.

But, after it's been explored, and with a bit of time, I can see 9 turns not being too little at all.

 

[Allan79]

What about religions in WHM? That most be an important element as well I guess?

 

[kevinman4404]

I really have to run but for religions, either it will be

a) similar to the original game, though with different types of religions. There would be World Religions, which spread/can be spread, and have adverse affects on politics. There would be native religions, and minor religions, which mostly just grant you a couple units, buildings and effects. These can follow you when you conquer, but they don't really spread. I may also incorporate elements of B

b) I use that religion mod someone made, where you start with basic religions and then through schisms and stuff more specific religions are born. It would also incorporate elements of A

So far the list is something like

Catholicism (early on called Christianity)
Protestantism
Reformed (ie Lutheranism, etc., I think)
Orthodoxy
Nestorian (I think)

Sunni
Shiite
(The Islam practiced in Oman or Yemen, I forget which)
(There may be more Islams...)

Hinduism

All 3 types of Buddhism

Confucianism
Daoism (Taoism?)

Shinto

Animism
Shamanism
Paganism? (maybe split into Greek pantheon, Egyptian, etc.)
Teotl

(the list may not be accurate, I may be forgetting stuff, etc., it is very quick off-hand memory)

 

[Gooblah]

I've been attempting to create a Debug DLL for figuring out why the Offensive Pacts are crashing, so no progress on that yet due to a failure to create one.

At any rate, General_Specific, have you made any progress on the Civics? I need to have a general idea of what kind of new abilities these civics will unlock so that I know which tags to create and code.

I've also been working on a Royalty system for any Monarchy-type civics (well, conceptually): Something like 'regional religions'. Each 'region' (which could be broad civilizations such as French, German, Indian, etc) would have royal families that could span national borders. Civilizations running Monarchy civics would have to pick a royal family. Certain royal families could also have precoded conflicts, so cities that have a conflicting royal family could be pressured to revolt or join a civilization that runs their royal family. Similarly, if the Hapsburg dynasty rules Spain, the Netherlands, and parts of Italy, those empires would have better relations and could vassal to the empire controlling the Birthplace (similar to a holy city) of that Royal Family.

 

[kevinman4404]

@allan79 and anyone: post 5 of civs thread on civjunction forum now has an updated civ list. As you can see it is way crisper. Ignore any other civ lists. This reflects all recent discussions, and my cleaning up

@Gooblah: Well, it would require a complete utter reworking of pretty much everything- cutting lots and lots of civs (which could be seen as a good thing) but having to do something pretty hard in exchange. It would also require even more information than if I just left things how they are. In any case there is not enough possible time or coding knowledge to do it in the near future. I am thinking we could bring this up again when we start working on Asia, where it becomes really important. EDIT: Though you are of course welcome to work on the idea if you have the time


***My essay has been extended, so intensive work on my part will not resume until a week or two later than planned. I will contribue in smaller ways in the meantime***

EDIT: My North/South America part of the civ list is now finalized (theoretically). Again. It now looks like this:

Arawak~
Argentina/La Plata
Aztec
Brazil
Canada
Carib~
Cherokee
Chile
Chimu
Colombia
Creek
Cuba
Dominican Republic
Ecuador
Huron
Inca
Iroquois
Maya
Mexico
Miskito
Mixtec
Naztec
Olmec
Paraguay
Peru
Shawnee
Sioux~
Tarascan
Teotihuacan
Toltec
Tupi~
United States
UPCA/Guatemala
Venezuela
Zapotec

~ means not really a civ in the sense we are looking for (ie kingdom, empire, fed., etc.)

I must say, it's pretty good I have made some very clever civ choices, representing every regional power, leaving nowhere isolated (ie incas), and consolidated where possible. But now's the time to let me know if you want any changes!

Unfortunately, this stretches ever so slightly beyond available leaderheads, I believe. I am now using 2d leaderheads for any that I do not have available. Making leaderheads consumes a lot of time given that they are not totally totally necessary at this point