World Relgions Mod - opinons, help?

[Eusebius]

UPDATE 4/25/06 - Mod has been released. Go to: here.



I'm working on a mod that will incorporate all world religions of 2 million or more people, based on figures at: http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html.

For starting points, I will be incorporating my own work on the Alternate Relgions Tech Tree mod and and Kidinnu's outstanding Mod: True Prophets. I really can't say enough good things about Kidinnu's work. The clean code is helping me learn Python. The mechanism of founding religions via buildings is brilliantly flexible. I have also become convinced that his idea of Paganism being temples built with no state religion is far superior to my idea of having it be a defined religion. Thanks Kidinnu!

The great thing about the True Prophets mechanism is that religions don't have to be founded. Human players and/or the AI have a choice about it. This will allow me to add all the world religions with the understanding that not every religion will actually wind up in every game. My hope is that this will lead to more interesting game play combined with historically accurate religions.

In some ways, documenting what I have in mind is just as hard as writing the code, but let me give you a sample with Judaism and Christianity.

You can found Judaism if you have:

• A great prophet
• The technology: "Divine Patronage"

As it spreads to a city, pagan temples in that city have some chance (75%?) of changing into Jewish Synagogues.

You can found Christianity if you have:

• A great prophet
• The technology Philosophy
• The religion "Judaism" in one of the cities of your civilization.

Since the initial version of Christianity is a schismatic Jewish movement, civilizations that are friendly to you might automatically convert to Christianity. If they don't, then they get extra mad at you for corrupting what was your joint faith.

You can build a new wonder: "The Vatican" if you have:

• Christianity as your State Religion
• The Technology: "Ordained Government"

One of the effects of building The Vatican is that all Christian Civilizations will become more friendly to you, representing the power the pope has had in international politics over the century. In this case, I am considering Catholicism to be "Orthodox Christianity with a wonder" rather than a separate religion.

You can found Protestantism if you have:

• A Great Prophet
• The technology "Printing Press"
• Christianity as a religion in one of your cities.

Now Protestantism is a schism from Christianity, so friendly civilizations may convert with you and the ones that don't will get really mad. Also, Christian Churches may convert to Protestant Churches when Protestantism spreads to cities.

Why found later religions? They have better temples, faster spread rates and other unique benefits. For example, I am thinking that temples of religions that view time as having a beginning and and end will get +2 happiness since they trust that things are working out as they should. (Zoroastrianism, Christianity, Islam). Eastern religions that view time as cyclical often include a lot of health practices like vegitarianism and meditation. Their temples would have +1 happiness, +1 health. (Buddhism, Taoism, Jainism, Sikhism).

I have a lot more ideas than this, but not enough time to put them all in this post. I just wanted to let the community know I am working on this, seek opinions and ideas from others and ask if anyone wants to help with the graphics and/or sound bits. I really don't have the right set-up to do those things and will mostly be reduced to lifting things from other mods if left soley to my own devices.

Cheers,
Eusebius

PS. I'm also aware of the Reformation Mod and the Inquistor Mod and may be looking at incorporating some of those ideas. Thanks for all the good content people are putting out there.

 

[Civmansam]

Sounds cool hopefully it will be balanced and fair. Make sure you get your facts strait or people will get angry

 

[lordroy]

Sounds cool hopefully it will be balanced and fair. Make sure you get your facts strait or people will get angry

I second this. You have to make all the religions equal or someone will call foul, including me.

-=R=-

 

[IVZanIV]

You might consider releasing two versions if you have a problem with the equality, an equal version and a "realistic" or whatever you'd like to call it, and people can choose which they like.

 

[Eusebius]

I second this. You have to make all the religions equal or someone will call foul, including me.

-=R=-

Given that your status on Civfanatics shows up in the left margin as "God", I guess I better take that warning seriously!

However, I do question that they have to be equal, a priori. Different religions have different traits that have both benefited and hurt them in specific historical contexts as measured by the kinds of things that would be significant in a Civ game.

I will be curious to see the ultimate response once the mod starts being released, but I can pretty much guarrantee in advance that someone, somewhere will be unhappy with it. I plan for the mod to be balanced. I do not start out intending to slander anyone or give offense. I have been enjoying the research that is leading into this mod. My love of history is what leads to my love of Civilization.

Eusebius

 

[Bevertje]

Great plan! I checked the list you mentioned. Had some questions and my preference answers.

Will you use Agnostic/Atheist as a religion? No
How will you call Chinese traditional religion? Confucianism
How will you call primal-indigenous? Animism
Will you include (Neo-)Paganism? There are only 1 million "followers", but it is one of the oldest forms of religion

I really look forward to this mod. Go for it!

 

[Mr.Earl]

Will you use Agnostic/Atheist as a religion? No
How will you call Chinese traditional religion? Confucianism

A slight problem, China considers it's state "religion" to be atheist.

 

[Eusebius]

Will you use Agnostic/Atheist as a religion? No
How will you call Chinese traditional religion? Confucianism
How will you call primal-indigenous? Animism
Will you include (Neo-)Paganism?

No to Agnostic, but considering marxist atheism. Trying to decide to make Juche part of that or keep them separate.

Actually will leave Confucianism and Taoism separate.

Considing primal-ind. to be Paganism unless someone can tell me how they differ.

Will handle Paganism as True Prophets does. Not doing Neo-Paganism.

Eusebius

 

[Eusebius]

Does anyone understand what the field <ReligionChanges> does? Shrines have this field set to '1'. The description is that it is a "Modifier to speed by which a religion spreads". The question is, how much does it modify the spread rate?

Eusebius

 

[Eusebius]

I have been trying to find out if there is a lot of history of warfare between Shia and Sunni muslims. I know there is currently in Iraq, and that there was in the 1980s between Iraq and Iran, but how about going back a few centuries?

Should formation of Shia be a schism, or just a variant?

Eusebius

 

[Dryhad]

No to Agnostic, but considering marxist atheism. Trying to decide to make Juche part of that or keep them separate.

May I suggest you not do an atheism religion, but rather an atheist state civic? Atheism as a religion raises too many inconsistancies in my mind, and the flavour issues (i.e. modern China) can be easily solved using a civic.

 

[Bevertje]

No to Agnostic, but considering marxist atheism. Trying to decide to make Juche part of that or keep them separate.

Actually will leave Confucianism and Taoism separate.

Considing primal-ind. to be Paganism unless someone can tell me how they differ.

Will handle Paganism as True Prophets does. Not doing Neo-Paganism.

Eusebius

Good idea to make Agnostic/Atheism as a religious civic.

Primal-ind (Animism) is not the same as Paganism.

Animism is the belief that every (living) thing is part of the great spirit. There are no gods in this belief, except for the great spirit. Rituals are needed to keep the world turning.

Paganism is more or less the same, but mostly a pantheon of gods has the power over all those things. Rituals are needed to please the gods.

 

[Mr.Earl]

May I suggest you not do an atheism religion, but rather an atheist state civic? Atheism as a religion raises too many inconsistancies in my mind, and the flavour issues (i.e. modern China) can be easily solved using a civic.

If you want an Atheist State civic, what civic should it replace? I searched through neumorous threads and these kinds of debates occur every time someone suggsests using Atheism as a religion (May I point out that Dryhad has suggested the same thing in my New Religions Requested... Thread. I think it would be a whole lot easer if we skipped the argu...er, I mean debates and just let someone make it if they want and not make it if they don't.

 

[Ranbir]

Oh my god...a religion mod with Sikhi! *swoons*

If you need any write up for that, I'm your man!

 

[Dryhad]

If you want an Atheist State civic, what civic should it replace?

That depends on the rest of the mod, and what civics are best suited for it.

I searched through neumorous threads and these kinds of debates occur every time someone suggsests using Atheism as a religion (May I point out that Dryhad has suggested the same thing in my New Religions Requested... Thread. I think it would be a whole lot easer if we skipped the argu...er, I mean debates and just let someone make it if they want and not make it if they don't.

I too would like to avoid debates of this nature, but I would also like what I feel to be a great solution to be made known. As I have now done so, I shall debate this no furthur with you.

 

[IrishDragon]

Hey, I like the idea but I dont think you should have all the religions equal. Each should have its own advantages. I think you should try and have some UU's for the religions
When do you think you will be finished?

 

[Bevertje]

If you want an Atheist State civic, what civic should it replace? I searched through neumorous threads and these kinds of debates occur every time someone suggsests using Atheism as a religion (May I point out that Dryhad has suggested the same thing in my New Religions Requested... Thread. I think it would be a whole lot easer if we skipped the argu...er, I mean debates and just let someone make it if they want and not make it if they don't.

If you use paganism as a religion the, atheism can be a religious civic. Although it has to be one of the last. Then I would use Animism as a civic.

Animism, Organized Rel, Theocracy, Atheism, Free Rel

 

[jimbob27]

I think you should try and make all religions as different as possible, but still keeping them balanced. Eg.... one religion gets a 10% culture boost, another gets a 10% science boost, and yet another gets a 10% military boost.

If you were to include atheism as a religious option, I'd like to suggest it should be the "high production" option. Lots of religious countries have laws which prevent business's opening on the sabbath, so state-atheism and free religion civ's should be more productive, if all 7 days of the week are available for work.

You said you wanted off-shoots... I was wondering if you'd thought about giving each religion an "extreme" option. It might cause a few people to complain, but as long as it was done tastefully, it could be a great feature.

The catholics could become crusaders like in the middle ages and get a big military bonus against non-catholics. Hinduism had an extreme off-shoot called Thugee, where there were tons of assasins running about murdering and robbing... so perhaps they could get some sort of pillaging bonus. Extreme muslim civ's could perhaps get some sort of subterfuge bonus. An extreme Amish civilisation would have rock solid cultural borders and earn lots of money, but wouldn't be able to research a lot of technologies.

Lol.... I'm getting carried away now... I dunno if you could mod all this.... but i'm just throwing some ideas into the pot

 

[Eusebius]

I'm fascinated by the degree of interest in an "Aetheism Relgion/Civic". I am pretty sure I am going to do Marxism and Hellenism, with Marxism as a kind of atheism and Juche Tower as a Marxist wonder.

So just for fun, what would European atheism look like? (Church attendence rates are 10% or lower in most European countries.) There might be something to jimbob27's idea of raising production because things are open on Sundays (except I'm not sure that is true in Europe). It is possible there should be a health penalty for lack of rest, increased spread of sexually transmitted diseases and such. (Studies show that when all other factors are equal, religious people live longer too.) There might be a cultural penalty because having a single religion in a society is a big unifying force.

If you survey the history of the enlightenment, I think cases where religion inhibits research is the exception not the rule. (Although I am thinking about a research penalty for having the wonder "The Papacy".) Probably would be a significant penalty for researching genetics with most relgions though (or bonus for atheism).

Perhaps Catholic countries should have a bonus to population growth because they are opposed to birth control?

If I am going to give Christian and Islamic "temples" +2 Happiness, that benefit would drop to +1 with Atheism I suppose.

Hmm, I guess that is enough rambling for one day...
Eusebius

PS. I've decided on a phased implemementation. I hope to release an Alpha version with just the religions in the original game sometime next week. Hopefully I can get some feedback about game balance with the new mechanisms.

 

[Wyz_sub10]

I'm fascinated by the degree of interest in an "Aetheism Relgion/Civic". I am pretty sure I am going to do Marxism and Hellenism, with Marxism as a kind of atheism and Juche Tower as a Marxist wonder.

As an atheist, I wouldn't necessarily object to Marxism as a "kind" of atheism, but I'd rather see atheism as simply a highly secularized state where religion isn't outlawed but benefits are minimized. Accompanying this would be a bonus in science and some kind of social freedoms civic.

So just for fun, what would European atheism look like? (Church attendence rates are 10% or lower in most European countries.) There might be something to jimbob27's idea of raising production because things are open on Sundays (except I'm not sure that is true in Europe).

Eh. I don't see this as a necessary connection. Some religious countries have markets that open from 5:00 am to midnight, and you'd be hard pressed to find that in major Euro or NAm centres.

It is possible there should be a health penalty for lack of rest, increased spread of sexually transmitted diseases and such. (Studies show that when all other factors are equal, religious people live longer too.) There might be a cultural penalty because having a single religion in a society is a big unifying force.

No on the first two, big time. Could you show me studies that demonstrate atheists have a higher instance of disease of any kind (et alone sexually-transmitted), and that theists live longer??

As for unifying forces, that could be a benefit for state reglions, not necessarily hinder non-state or atheist religions.

If you survey the history of the enlightenment, I think cases where religion inhibits research is the exception not the rule. (Although I am thinking about a research penalty for having the wonder "The Papacy".) Probably would be a significant penalty for researching genetics with most relgions though (or bonus for atheism).

Weeeeelll...natural sciences got a pretty good boost from religion - basic genetics, physics, etc. But as time passed, religion was definitely a hinderence. It certainly helped, though, in arts and music.

Maybe, like in the game, the discovery of "The Scientific Method" has an effect. If there were new techs and wonders, some could be confined to non-state religious civs.

Perhaps Catholic countries should have a bonus to population growth because they are opposed to birth control?

Definite possibility.

[quote[If I am going to give Christian and Islamic "temples" +2 Happiness, that benefit would drop to +1 with Atheism I suppose.[/quote]

State religions with state temples = max benefit, I would think.