CurtnoAnna
Chieftain
Should this mod be used in Modern era only? I start in Industrial era and when I start a religion, the game crashes! Should religion victory be turned off?
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- Thread starter TheWaWPro
- Start date
verify game cache then redownload mod
emparier
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2015
- Messages
- 7
The mod works fine, but every time I try to load the save file, a black screen that says "start game" appears. Then I get sent to the main menu while the in-game music plays on top of the main menu music. This does only happens with save files that have this mod active.
verify game cache then redownload mod
Will this mod include Polish prototypes? Like the PZL.54 Ryś?
I finally want to see this one and only "purist fighter/bomber" (it's how it was called due to it's high top speed) in action. Who could say no to an extremely fast, tough and agile aircraft with 4 machine guns spitting 1200 RPM each, twin linked 20mm auto cannons, a 300kg bomb (which was optional for attacking tanks, other armor and infantry if necessary) and a lovely twin linked wz. 36 operated by a gunner at the back of the plane. Now that was a Tiger! Well... flying Tiger! It is really sad that none of them were build considering that the WWII Polish pilots were unmatched even when flying old British Hurricanes. If only Poland had the time to get the previous prototype (PZL-48 Lampart) fully tested sooner so that they could finish the production and testng of the PZL.54 Ryś... but sadly even 1 proptotype was never fully completed. All of Poland's resources and manpower started dwindling very quickly once the Soviets began their invasion and there was just no time, materials or people to mass produce these machines or even the previous versions which were by themselves pretty good! They were slightly less armed and could only achieve the speed and agility (perhaps even slightly better) of the early German Bf 109 (before the E series) but the Lampart still had 2 engines a more durable structure and one hell of a firepower! But a Ryś could even go up against a Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Würger or a Supermarine Spitfire and always come out on top but at the same time it would get overshadowed by the Horten Ho 229... because it was an actual early stealth jet fighter, however, those were so expensive to produce that I doubt anyone in their right mind would start building them on mass, even the fuel was a pain in the ass to create in large quantities.
I'm not sure what units are you planning on adding but Poland had quite a couple of good projects and this is just one of them.
And... eh... eheh I'm not sure what a P51 is doing in the U.S. arsenal... it's ok but... seriously... there's nothing special about it:
I don't even know why it's in the default game, the U.S. had better planes by the end of WWII.
I finally want to see this one and only "purist fighter/bomber" (it's how it was called due to it's high top speed) in action. Who could say no to an extremely fast, tough and agile aircraft with 4 machine guns spitting 1200 RPM each, twin linked 20mm auto cannons, a 300kg bomb (which was optional for attacking tanks, other armor and infantry if necessary) and a lovely twin linked wz. 36 operated by a gunner at the back of the plane. Now that was a Tiger! Well... flying Tiger! It is really sad that none of them were build considering that the WWII Polish pilots were unmatched even when flying old British Hurricanes. If only Poland had the time to get the previous prototype (PZL-48 Lampart) fully tested sooner so that they could finish the production and testng of the PZL.54 Ryś... but sadly even 1 proptotype was never fully completed. All of Poland's resources and manpower started dwindling very quickly once the Soviets began their invasion and there was just no time, materials or people to mass produce these machines or even the previous versions which were by themselves pretty good! They were slightly less armed and could only achieve the speed and agility (perhaps even slightly better) of the early German Bf 109 (before the E series) but the Lampart still had 2 engines a more durable structure and one hell of a firepower! But a Ryś could even go up against a Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Würger or a Supermarine Spitfire and always come out on top but at the same time it would get overshadowed by the Horten Ho 229... because it was an actual early stealth jet fighter, however, those were so expensive to produce that I doubt anyone in their right mind would start building them on mass, even the fuel was a pain in the ass to create in large quantities.
I'm not sure what units are you planning on adding but Poland had quite a couple of good projects and this is just one of them.
And... eh... eheh I'm not sure what a P51 is doing in the U.S. arsenal... it's ok but... seriously... there's nothing special about it:
I don't even know why it's in the default game, the U.S. had better planes by the end of WWII.
Will this mod include Polish prototypes? Like the PZL.54 Ryś?
I finally want to see this one and only "purist fighter/bomber" (it's how it was called due to it's high top speed) in action. Who could say no to an extremely fast, tough and agile aircraft with 4 machine guns spitting 1200 RPM each, twin linked 20mm auto cannons, a 300kg bomb (which was optional for attacking tanks, other armor and infantry if necessary) and a lovely twin linked wz. 36 operated by a gunner at the back of the plane. Now that was a Tiger! Well... flying Tiger! It is really sad that none of them were build considering that the WWII Polish pilots were unmatched even when flying old British Hurricanes. If only Poland had the time to get the previous prototype (PZL-48 Lampart) fully tested sooner so that they could finish the production and testng of the PZL.54 Ryś... but sadly even 1 proptotype was never fully completed. All of Poland's resources and manpower started dwindling very quickly once the Soviets began their invasion and there was just no time, materials or people to mass produce these machines or even the previous versions which were by themselves pretty good! They were slightly less armed and could only achieve the speed and agility (perhaps even slightly better) of the early German Bf 109 (before the E series) but the Lampart still had 2 engines a more durable structure and one hell of a firepower! But a Ryś could even go up against a Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Würger or a Supermarine Spitfire and always come out on top but at the same time it would get overshadowed by the Horten Ho 229... because it was an actual early stealth jet fighter, however, those were so expensive to produce that I doubt anyone in their right mind would start building them on mass, even the fuel was a pain in the ass to create in large quantities.
I'm not sure what units are you planning on adding but Poland had quite a couple of good projects and this is just one of them.
And... eh... eheh I'm not sure what a P51 is doing in the U.S. arsenal... it's ok but... seriously... there's nothing special about it:
I don't even know why it's in the default game, the U.S. had better planes by the end of WWII.
i assume the reason why that prototype not release in default game.
cause polish cannot depend invasion as well so that prototype cannot made contribution .
and poland leader is medieval dynasty not pilsudski .. winged hussar more effected in history .
but i wonder firaxis made pilsudskii and leader unique unit like that too! cause i love polish howbet im korean !! haha ( so cannot english as well sorry.. )
There were actually several reasons why the Ryś was not finished and it was because the Soviet Union backstabbed Poland, the Soviets made a deal with the Nazis and eventually the Russians and Germans split the entire country in half after the Polish military was defeated, Poland also had problems with resources since the country only recently regained it's independence, plus fought off the Soviet invasion in 1920 (it was a mass invasion that would have even went beyond Berlin if Poland didn't stop it) and another reason was - too many prototypes! Wayyyyyyy too many in fact! There were several great engineers born and living in Poland at that time, and their designs ended up competing against one another, not to mention that mass production of these aircraft was to start in the years 1940-1942 soon after the final designs were tested.
On one side you had the PZL.54 Ryś (which was the best in my opinion), then you had a standard aircraft for mass production which was the PZL.50 Jastrząb (a decent fighter but overall nothing special and it was more of a Hurricane than a Bf 109), then you had a lot of other similar planes like the PZL.45 Sokół, PWS-42, RWD-25 and plenty of other fighter designs, yet again... one or two or sometimes even five prototypes were built and all the resources were not allocated to just one project. The last Polish fighter prototype (at least as far as Historian know) was a technological marvel known as the PZL.62 Kania but it was extremely innovative, hard to produce and expensive (not to mention that not even one prototype was fully assembled).
The cockpit of the Kania was designed for both night and day engagements, equipped with a sophisticated oxygen mask, air conditioning (hard to believe but ye... you heard it, it was destined to have air conditioning) a powerful engine with state of the art cooling systems and even one of the guns was supposed to be placed in the very middle of the propeller... which would have been fine if it didn't add extreme complexity to an already very complex design. The PZL.54 Ryś was simply better, it would require some more resources and manpower but you could streamline production. Even it's earlier counterparts were actually produced! They never took part in actual combat because how the hell can you send just 2 aircraft prototypes (which required further testing) against an armada of German fighters? Plus most of the Polish airforce was bombed before the planes could even start their engines and the Lufwaffe dmamaged the airfields. Since the attack was lightning fast, unprovoked and unannounced most of the pilots never go to their fighters. But the early versions of Ryś (like the Lampart) where there, you could fly them, do barrel rolls, fire weapons, you name it. The main problem of Ryś was the engines, they were good and even if one was damaged you could still fly the bird with one being operational but it wasn't enough for the Polish air force, they wanted to make the final product even faster in 1940 and the new engines and other components were on the way but once the war broke out there was just no time to mass produce even the two earlier models, in fact most (if not all) of the projects were either canceled, slowed or put on hold. If WWII started somewhere in early/mid 1940 the Luftwaffe would have been outmatched:
Even when piloting the old (sometimes even damaged and defective) British Hurricanes, the Polish pilots went up again overwhelming odds (like 6 vs 150) and won. After several successful and well earned victories the German pilots would go in to panic attacks when facing the Polish airmen over Britain, the moment they heard Polish chatter over the radio they knew that all of their perfect formations and training would not win them the battle and they were all more likely to die instead of getting captured. Even if a German polit managed to bail out a Polish pilot would shoot at the parachute or the German who was trying to escape and they used the same approach when firing at enemy aircraft. They didn't care about the machine, they wanted to paint their enemy's cockpit red with blood and guts. Once the enemy pilot and gunners were dead (or wounded so badly that they couldn't move) their aircraft would just crash anyway or burst in to flames due to all the damage.
Now I know what you're trying to say, aosos but this is a mod about the WWII period and WWII equipment. In this mod (if you look closely) you'll notice that Władysław Raczkiewicz is the President of Poland and the German leader is Adolf Hitler, although for history's sake I wanted to say that WWII started when Ignacy Mościcki was the Polish president and after the German attack it was Edward Rydz (the Marshal of Poland) who became the leader of Poland and the Polish armed forces. He was literally the leader of the entire Polish nation, unfortunately, despite being a good commander he was not as good as Józef Piłsudski and completely unprepared for the lighting war. The Polish people fought valiantly and with extreme ferocity, they where even capable of dealing heavy casualties to he Germans despite being overwhelmed BUT they were stretched too thin. Much, MUCH too thin! And there were too many prototypes compared to actual, mass produced semi and full auto guns, tanks, aircraft and some other equipment.
What's worse, Poland did the same mistake that France did, the tanks were not working in large groups (in fact French tanks at the start of WWII were better than German ones and one even took something like 100 shots from a German tank without getting destroyed or seriously damaged) instead they were spread among infantry groups... Poland and France was not forming a large, mechanized, tough iron fist, so, in the end it didn't matter how good were their tanks, eventually they were overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of Nazi armor brigades.
In any case... military wise there are only several areas where countries such as Poland would be able to compete with the Germans as far as WWII units and equipment is concerned:
PZL.54 Ryś - the ultimate, multi role hybrid aircraft.
Polish Uhlans - mounted infantry equipped with anti tank weapons (they could still take on a Panzer III brigade and any earlier models with their Boforos 37 mm cannons and Wz. 35 anti-tank rifles [around 20mm of penetration] but they couldn't do it out in the open, so they would always try to lure German tank units in to hill areas and forests, and surely they wouldn't be able to dispatch any Panzer IV's and later models, just infantry, light mechanized and armored transports. They were lacking in opened battles against armor but at the same time vert effective in forests and hills were the enemy had no clear line of sight, otherwise they'd get mowed down, this was also the main reasons why they always retread from such situations and never attacked tanks head on but on several occasions they were surprise attacked by German armor, these situations were later used by Joseph Goebbels in his propaganda against the Polish people and formed the myth of Polish Uhlans charging tanks).
Eagle Class Submarines - if you think that the Germans had good submarines, think again! The ORP Orzeł (Eagle) and it's brother ORP Sęp (Vulture) were fully operational ships and not prototypes. Two technologically sophisticated underwater killers that Germany could only drool over and actually wanted to capture but the ORP Eagle escaped. During initial testing the Eagle could dive to over 100m (even though some sources claim it could only go to 80, but this was false and the structure was so durable it could probably dive even deeper without being damaged). It was armed with 12 (yes 12!) torpedo launchers a 105mm cannon and two twin linked AA guns - one was a Bofors (40mm) and a Hotchkiss wz. 30. When the ship dived, the advanced hydraulic system would lower the guns into special, hermetically sealed containers to prevent the guns from catching any water. Only in the last years of the war in 1944-1945 were the Germans capable of creating more advanced u-boats (better in certain areas such as speed thanks to their new turbines) like the type XXI and yet they still lacked the Polish firepower with it's 12 - 550mm!!! torpedo launchers compared to the German 6 - 533mm ones. Just imagine how much better would this ship have been if it could be further upgraded and modernized like... well anything during WWII. Literally everything kept getting upgraded, modernized and refitted over time. The Supermarine Spitfire for example was a completely different beast from the early Spitfires, it's like design went from it being a bumblebee to a hornet.
21-25TP (designed by Habich) - Well, I guess there's not much to say about this one.
It's essentially a Polish T34-85 and I would highly advise giving the Russians a T34-85 instead of a T-34 because the early models were a disaster later on in the war. At first the T-34 was em... OK and better than all early Panzers but later the Soviets realized that armor and having a wast quantity of tanks is not everything. The Tigers and Panthers dispatched the early T34's with relative ease, later models were somewhat better and it's known that the T-34 drivers were often ordered to literally RAM! (yes ram their tank) right in to German panzers to stop them because the T34's were like cheep candy, cheep... extremely heavy candy. The Germans would shoot at these inexpensive Soviet monsters and the monsters were like the Hordes of Mordor itself! They just kept coming and coming and coming one wave after another. The T34's were very unfinished or perhaps I should say "unpolished" and many were plagued by engine failures and other problems, so if one broke down and the crew survived they'd just get a new T-34. On the other side, the Allies had Sherman's, which were pretty much the same, they had better optics and some Sherman like the American Cobra King were actually even more armed in some places than Tiger I's, also their main guns were (sometimes) refitted with the 76mm gun. As you can imagine - a Cobra King Sherman armed with a 76mm main gun and a new generation of AP rounds could even take down a Tiger I all by itself, although the Tigers would still have an advantage, especially at long range but the tank that was the real Tiger killers were the U.S. M26 Pershing and the British Firefly and Achilles. Some could probably say that I missed the IS-2 but no... just no... don't get me wrong, it was a decent tank to some degree and well armored but the problems with reloading were extreme, around half a minute to load 1 round, much later that was fix and it took around 15-20 seconds but loading the gun was a nightmare - you had to stop and elevate the gun in order to load it, the accuracy was questionable and the targeting tended to be not all that precise, the interior was cramped and it was extremely difficult to load the 122mm's monstrous shell with so little space.
But back to the 21-25TP, there was a prototype made of an earlier version:
The 20-25TP (KSUS) and... it was crap! It was total crap! Well, perhaps it wasn't all that bad but the multi turret design meant that it's 2 lower MG turrets were essentially frontal weaknesses and what have we learned from WWII? Don't make tanks with multiple turrets! They are too complicated, faulty and you just add structural weak-points. And the other thing we have learned from WWII is that all tanks should have a radio because all good tanks of that time period had them (except for a lot of the Russian ones). Radios allowed the tanks to coordinate and very often German tank crews would "play with their Russian food". Since the T-34's often didn't have any means of communication they would get lured in to traps, surrounded, toyed with and eventually destroyed because without a radio they could not organize and the bad optics on the T-34 (especially early models) made shooting a pain in the ass. The Germans even had a saying "Don't worry, the Russians always miss the first shot!" because they did miss, how coud they shoot at long range if the T34 had faulty optics?
Anyway I think that Poland completed only one of these early 20-25TP tanks and decided to abandon the project, that's why the 21-25TP was designed but it was never produced because the war started and (again) there were not enough resources to create an infrastructure for building 21-25TP's but we know the specifications and it was essentially a decent medium tank with good optics and a potent 75mm gun. The tank was smaller than a Panther and essentially a T34-85 with better optics but it would probably be also a bit more expensive to make.
When compared to a T34-85, the 20-25TP would be slightly less armored T34 (32 tons) / 20-25TP (30 tons) but the quality and angles of the armor would give it similar resistance since the T34's had cast and wielded armor, the 20-25TP was on the other hand supposed to have rolled and wielded armor. However the T34 had a thick, sloped rear armor (the T34 - 45mm armor at the front and 40mm at the back along with sloping which made it more effective), the Polish tank was supposed to have some sloping at the back but not enough steel to provide adequate protection (not that it would matter when you are up against a Panther or Tiger) which is why it was lighter and you could inflict the most damage when attacking this vehicle from behind (like most other tanks). In short - the 21-25TP would be better at frontal attacks than a T34-85 but take additional damage when attacked from behind compared to it's Soviet counterpart. It was rather cheep and would have been quick to produce but you'd still need numbers to fight Tigers and Panthers.
Anyway, the Civ series is all about alternative history, so I think it would be nice to give Poland a fair chance in an alternative WWII scenario based on the most promising prototypes and very few people know that such projects even existed.
And by the way, your English is ok but what's a "Polish howbet"?
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There were actually several reasons why the Ryś was not finished and it was because the Soviet Union backstabbed Poland, the Soviets made a deal with the Nazis and eventually the Russians and Germans split the entire country in half after the Polish military was defeated, Poland also had problems with resources since the country only recently regained it's independence, plus fought off the Soviet invasion in 1920 (it was a mass invasion that would have even went beyond Berlin if Poland didn't stop it) and another reason was - too many prototypes! Wayyyyyyy too many in fact! There were several great engineers born and living in Poland at that time, and their designs ended up competing against one another, not to mention that mass production of these aircraft was to start in the years 1940-1942 soon after the final designs were tested.
On one side you had the PZL.54 Ryś (which was the best in my opinion), then you had a standard aircraft for mass production which was the PZL.50 Jastrząb (a decent fighter but overall nothing special and it was more of a Hurricane than a Bf 109), then you had a lot of other similar planes like the PZL.45 Sokół, PWS-42, RWD-25 and plenty of other fighter designs, yet again... one or two or sometimes even five prototypes were built and all the resources were not allocated to just one project. The last Polish fighter prototype (at least as far as Historian know) was a technological marvel known as the PZL.62 Kania but it was extremely innovative, hard to produce and expensive (not to mention that not even one prototype was fully assembled).
The cockpit of the Kania was designed for both night and day engagements, equipped with a sophisticated oxygen mask, air conditioning (hard to believe but ye... you heard it, it was destined to have air conditioning) a powerful engine with state of the art cooling systems and even one of the guns was supposed to be placed in the very middle of the propeller... which would have been fine if it didn't add extreme complexity to an already very complex design. The PZL.54 Ryś was simply better, it would require some more resources and manpower but you could streamline production. Even it's earlier counterparts were actually produced! They never took part in actual combat because how the hell can you send just 2 aircraft prototypes (which required further testing) against an armada of German fighters? Plus most of the Polish airforce was bombed before the planes could even start their engines and the Lufwaffe dmamaged the airfields. Since the attack was lightning fast, unprovoked and unannounced most of the pilots never go to their fighters. But the early versions of Ryś (like the Lampart) where there, you could fly them, do barrel rolls, fire weapons, you name it. The main problem of Ryś was the engines, they were good and even if one was damaged you could still fly the bird with one being operational but it wasn't enough for the Polish air force, they wanted to make the final product even faster in 1940 and the new engines and other components were on the way but once the war broke out there was just no time to mass produce even the two earlier models, in fact most (if not all) of the projects were either canceled, slowed or put on hold. If WWII started somewhere in early/mid 1940 the Luftwaffe would have been outmatched:
Even when piloting the old (sometimes even damaged and defective) British Hurricanes, the Polish pilots went up again overwhelming odds (like 6 vs 150) and won. After several successful and well earned victories the German pilots would go in to panic attacks when facing the Polish airmen over Britain, the moment they heard Polish chatter over the radio they knew that all of their perfect formations and training would not win them the battle and they were all more likely to die instead of getting captured. Even if a German polit managed to bail out a Polish pilot would shoot at the parachute or the German who was trying to escape and they used the same approach when firing at enemy aircraft. They didn't care about the machine, they wanted to paint their enemy's cockpit red with blood and guts. Once the enemy pilot and gunners were dead (or wounded so badly that they couldn't move) their aircraft would just crash anyway or burst in to flames due to all the damage.
Now I know what you're trying to say, aosos but this is a mod about the WWII period and WWII equipment. In this mod (if you look closely) you'll notice that Władysław Raczkiewicz is the President of Poland and the German leader is Adolf Hitler, although for history's sake I wanted to say that WWII started when Ignacy Mościcki was the Polish president and after the German attack it was Edward Rydz (the Marshal of Poland) who became the leader of Poland and the Polish armed forces. He was literally the leader of the entire Polish nation, unfortunately, despite being a good commander he was not as good as Józef Piłsudski and completely unprepared for the lighting war. The Polish people fought valiantly and with extreme ferocity, they where even capable of dealing heavy casualties to he Germans despite being overwhelmed BUT they were stretched too thin. Much, MUCH too thin! And there were too many prototypes compared to actual, mass produced semi and full auto guns, tanks, aircraft and some other equipment.
What's worse, Poland did the same mistake that France did, the tanks were not working in large groups (in fact French tanks at the start of WWII were better than German ones and one even took something like 100 shots from a German tank without getting destroyed or seriously damaged) instead they were spread among infantry groups... Poland and France was not forming a large, mechanized, tough iron fist, so, in the end it didn't matter how good were their tanks, eventually they were overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of Nazi armor brigades.
In any case... military wise there are only several areas where countries such as Poland would be able to compete with the Germans as far as WWII units and equipment is concerned:
PZL.54 Ryś - the ultimate, multi role hybrid aircraft.
Polish Uhlans - mounted infantry equipped with anti tank weapons (they could still take on a Panzer III brigade and any earlier models with their Boforos 37 mm cannons and Wz. 35 anti-tank rifles [around 20mm of penetration] but they couldn't do it out in the open, so they would always try to lure German tank units in to hill areas and forests, and surely they wouldn't be able to dispatch any Panzer IV's and later models, just infantry, light mechanized and armored transports. They were lacking in opened battles against armor but at the same time vert effective in forests and hills were the enemy had no clear line of sight, otherwise they'd get mowed down, this was also the main reasons why they always retread from such situations and never attacked tanks head on but on several occasions they were surprise attacked by German armor, these situations were later used by Joseph Goebbels in his propaganda against the Polish people and formed the myth of Polish Uhlans charging tanks).
Eagle Class Submarines - if you think that the Germans had good submarines, think again! The ORP Orzeł (Eagle) and it's brother ORP Sęp (Vulture) were fully operational ships and not prototypes. Two technologically sophisticated underwater killers that Germany could only drool over and actually wanted to capture but the ORP Eagle escaped. During initial testing the Eagle could dive to over 100m (even though some sources claim it could only go to 80, but this was false and the structure was so durable it could probably dive even deeper without being damaged). It was armed with 12 (yes 12!) torpedo launchers a 105mm cannon and two twin linked AA guns - one was a Bofors (40mm) and a Hotchkiss wz. 30. When the ship dived, the advanced hydraulic system would lower the guns into special, hermetically sealed containers to prevent the guns from catching any water. Only in the last years of the war in 1944-1945 were the Germans capable of creating more advanced u-boats (better in certain areas such as speed thanks to their new turbines) like the type XXI and yet they still lacked the Polish firepower with it's 12 - 550mm!!! torpedo launchers compared to the German 6 - 533mm ones. Just imagine how much better would this ship have been if it could be further upgraded and modernized like... well anything during WWII. Literally everything kept getting upgraded, modernized and refitted over time. The Supermarine Spitfire for example was a completely different beast from the early Spitfires, it's like design went from it being a bumblebee to a hornet.
21-25TP (designed by Habich) - Well, I guess there's not much to say about this one.
It's essentially a Polish T34-85 and I would highly advise giving the Russians a T34-85 instead of a T-34 because the early models were a disaster later on in the war. At first the T-34 was em... OK and better than all early Panzers but later the Soviets realized that armor and having a wast quantity of tanks is not everything. The Tigers and Panthers dispatched the early T34's with relative ease, later models were somewhat better and it's known that the T-34 drivers were often ordered to literally RAM! (yes ram their tank) right in to German panzers to stop them because the T34's were like cheep candy, cheep... extremely heavy candy. The Germans would shoot at these inexpensive Soviet monsters and the monsters were like the Hordes of Mordor itself! They just kept coming and coming and coming one wave after another. The T34's were very unfinished or perhaps I should say "unpolished" and many were plagued by engine failures and other problems, so if one broke down and the crew survived they'd just get a new T-34. On the other side, the Allies had Sherman's, which were pretty much the same, they had better optics and some Sherman like the American Cobra King were actually even more armed in some places than Tiger I's, also their main guns were (sometimes) refitted with the 76mm gun. As you can imagine - a Cobra King Sherman armed with a 76mm main gun and a new generation of AP rounds could even take down a Tiger I all by itself, although the Tigers would still have an advantage, especially at long range but the tank that was the real Tiger killers were the U.S. M26 Pershing and the British Firefly and Achilles. Some could probably say that I missed the IS-2 but no... just no... don't get me wrong, it was a decent tank to some degree and well armored but the problems with reloading were extreme, around half a minute to load 1 round, much later that was fix and it took around 15-20 seconds but loading the gun was a nightmare - you had to stop and elevate the gun in order to load it, the accuracy was questionable and the targeting tended to be not all that precise, the interior was cramped and it was extremely difficult to load the 122mm's monstrous shell with so little space.
But back to the 21-25TP, there was a prototype made of an earlier version:
The 20-25TP (KSUS) and... it was crap! It was total crap! Well, perhaps it wasn't all that bad but the multi turret design meant that it's 2 lower MG turrets were essentially frontal weaknesses and what have we learned from WWII? Don't make tanks with multiple turrets! They are too complicated, faulty and you just add structural weak-points. And the other thing we have learned from WWII is that all tanks should have a radio because all good tanks of that time period had them (except for a lot of the Russian ones). Radios allowed the tanks to coordinate and very often German tank crews would "play with their Russian food". Since the T-34's often didn't have any means of communication they would get lured in to traps, surrounded, toyed with and eventually destroyed because without a radio they could not organize and the bad optics on the T-34 (especially early models) made shooting a pain in the ass. The Germans even had a saying "Don't worry, the Russians always miss the first shot!" because they did miss, how coud they shoot at long range if the T34 had faulty optics?
Anyway I think that Poland completed only one of these early 20-25TP tanks and decided to abandon the project, that's why the 21-25TP was designed but it was never produced because the war started and (again) there were not enough resources to create an infrastructure for building 21-25TP's but we know the specifications and it was essentially a decent medium tank with good optics and a potent 75mm gun. The tank was smaller than a Panther and essentially a T34-85 with better optics but it would probably be also a bit more expensive to make.
When compared to a T34-85, the 20-25TP would be slightly less armored T34 (32 tons) / 20-25TP (30 tons) but the quality and angles of the armor would give it similar resistance since the T34's had cast and wielded armor, the 20-25TP was on the other hand supposed to have rolled and wielded armor. However the T34 had a thick, sloped rear armor (the T34 - 45mm armor at the front and 40mm at the back along with sloping which made it more effective), the Polish tank was supposed to have some sloping at the back but not enough steel to provide adequate protection (not that it would matter when you are up against a Panther or Tiger) which is why it was lighter and you could inflict the most damage when attacking this vehicle from behind (like most other tanks). In short - the 21-25TP would be better at frontal attacks than a T34-85 but take additional damage when attacked from behind compared to it's Soviet counterpart. It was rather cheep and would have been quick to produce but you'd still need numbers to fight Tigers and Panthers.
Anyway, the Civ series is all about alternative history, so I think it would be nice to give Poland a fair chance in an alternative WWII scenario based on the most promising prototypes and very few people know that such projects even existed.
And by the way, your English is ok but what's a "Polish howbet"?
Wow your knowledge about polish and opinion about why the pzl should be the unique unit were very very impressive!
At first, im so thank you for teaching me with
Sincere reply and i fixed my opinion too!
second, say sorry about my grammar error. howbet is my mistake. i wanted to tell was
i love polish although im korean.
I respect polish people cause they were sufficiented long years by their geographic location . but they rebuild like have a constant willing about happiness and freedom for next generation. And it likely my country korea cause we were sufficient by strong country arrounding korea.
There were actually several reasons why the Ryś was not finished and it was because the Soviet Union backstabbed Poland, the Soviets made a deal with the Nazis and eventually the Russians and Germans split the entire country in half after the Polish military was defeated, Poland also had problems with resources since the country only recently regained it's independence, plus fought off the Soviet invasion in 1920 (it was a mass invasion that would have even went beyond Berlin if Poland didn't stop it) and another reason was - too many prototypes! Wayyyyyyy too many in fact! There were several great engineers born and living in Poland at that time, and their designs ended up competing against one another, not to mention that mass production of these aircraft was to start in the years 1940-1942 soon after the final designs were tested.
On one side you had the PZL.54 Ryś (which was the best in my opinion), then you had a standard aircraft for mass production which was the PZL.50 Jastrząb (a decent fighter but overall nothing special and it was more of a Hurricane than a Bf 109), then you had a lot of other similar planes like the PZL.45 Sokół, PWS-42, RWD-25 and plenty of other fighter designs, yet again... one or two or sometimes even five prototypes were built and all the resources were not allocated to just one project. The last Polish fighter prototype (at least as far as Historian know) was a technological marvel known as the PZL.62 Kania but it was extremely innovative, hard to produce and expensive (not to mention that not even one prototype was fully assembled).
The cockpit of the Kania was designed for both night and day engagements, equipped with a sophisticated oxygen mask, air conditioning (hard to believe but ye... you heard it, it was destined to have air conditioning) a powerful engine with state of the art cooling systems and even one of the guns was supposed to be placed in the very middle of the propeller... which would have been fine if it didn't add extreme complexity to an already very complex design. The PZL.54 Ryś was simply better, it would require some more resources and manpower but you could streamline production. Even it's earlier counterparts were actually produced! They never took part in actual combat because how the hell can you send just 2 aircraft prototypes (which required further testing) against an armada of German fighters? Plus most of the Polish airforce was bombed before the planes could even start their engines and the Lufwaffe dmamaged the airfields. Since the attack was lightning fast, unprovoked and unannounced most of the pilots never go to their fighters. But the early versions of Ryś (like the Lampart) where there, you could fly them, do barrel rolls, fire weapons, you name it. The main problem of Ryś was the engines, they were good and even if one was damaged you could still fly the bird with one being operational but it wasn't enough for the Polish air force, they wanted to make the final product even faster in 1940 and the new engines and other components were on the way but once the war broke out there was just no time to mass produce even the two earlier models, in fact most (if not all) of the projects were either canceled, slowed or put on hold. If WWII started somewhere in early/mid 1940 the Luftwaffe would have been outmatched:
Even when piloting the old (sometimes even damaged and defective) British Hurricanes, the Polish pilots went up again overwhelming odds (like 6 vs 150) and won. After several successful and well earned victories the German pilots would go in to panic attacks when facing the Polish airmen over Britain, the moment they heard Polish chatter over the radio they knew that all of their perfect formations and training would not win them the battle and they were all more likely to die instead of getting captured. Even if a German polit managed to bail out a Polish pilot would shoot at the parachute or the German who was trying to escape and they used the same approach when firing at enemy aircraft. They didn't care about the machine, they wanted to paint their enemy's cockpit red with blood and guts. Once the enemy pilot and gunners were dead (or wounded so badly that they couldn't move) their aircraft would just crash anyway or burst in to flames due to all the damage.
Now I know what you're trying to say, aosos but this is a mod about the WWII period and WWII equipment. In this mod (if you look closely) you'll notice that Władysław Raczkiewicz is the President of Poland and the German leader is Adolf Hitler, although for history's sake I wanted to say that WWII started when Ignacy Mościcki was the Polish president and after the German attack it was Edward Rydz (the Marshal of Poland) who became the leader of Poland and the Polish armed forces. He was literally the leader of the entire Polish nation, unfortunately, despite being a good commander he was not as good as Józef Piłsudski and completely unprepared for the lighting war. The Polish people fought valiantly and with extreme ferocity, they where even capable of dealing heavy casualties to he Germans despite being overwhelmed BUT they were stretched too thin. Much, MUCH too thin! And there were too many prototypes compared to actual, mass produced semi and full auto guns, tanks, aircraft and some other equipment.
What's worse, Poland did the same mistake that France did, the tanks were not working in large groups (in fact French tanks at the start of WWII were better than German ones and one even took something like 100 shots from a German tank without getting destroyed or seriously damaged) instead they were spread among infantry groups... Poland and France was not forming a large, mechanized, tough iron fist, so, in the end it didn't matter how good were their tanks, eventually they were overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of Nazi armor brigades.
In any case... military wise there are only several areas where countries such as Poland would be able to compete with the Germans as far as WWII units and equipment is concerned:
PZL.54 Ryś - the ultimate, multi role hybrid aircraft.
Polish Uhlans - mounted infantry equipped with anti tank weapons (they could still take on a Panzer III brigade and any earlier models with their Boforos 37 mm cannons and Wz. 35 anti-tank rifles [around 20mm of penetration] but they couldn't do it out in the open, so they would always try to lure German tank units in to hill areas and forests, and surely they wouldn't be able to dispatch any Panzer IV's and later models, just infantry, light mechanized and armored transports. They were lacking in opened battles against armor but at the same time vert effective in forests and hills were the enemy had no clear line of sight, otherwise they'd get mowed down, this was also the main reasons why they always retread from such situations and never attacked tanks head on but on several occasions they were surprise attacked by German armor, these situations were later used by Joseph Goebbels in his propaganda against the Polish people and formed the myth of Polish Uhlans charging tanks).
Eagle Class Submarines - if you think that the Germans had good submarines, think again! The ORP Orzeł (Eagle) and it's brother ORP Sęp (Vulture) were fully operational ships and not prototypes. Two technologically sophisticated underwater killers that Germany could only drool over and actually wanted to capture but the ORP Eagle escaped. During initial testing the Eagle could dive to over 100m (even though some sources claim it could only go to 80, but this was false and the structure was so durable it could probably dive even deeper without being damaged). It was armed with 12 (yes 12!) torpedo launchers a 105mm cannon and two twin linked AA guns - one was a Bofors (40mm) and a Hotchkiss wz. 30. When the ship dived, the advanced hydraulic system would lower the guns into special, hermetically sealed containers to prevent the guns from catching any water. Only in the last years of the war in 1944-1945 were the Germans capable of creating more advanced u-boats (better in certain areas such as speed thanks to their new turbines) like the type XXI and yet they still lacked the Polish firepower with it's 12 - 550mm!!! torpedo launchers compared to the German 6 - 533mm ones. Just imagine how much better would this ship have been if it could be further upgraded and modernized like... well anything during WWII. Literally everything kept getting upgraded, modernized and refitted over time. The Supermarine Spitfire for example was a completely different beast from the early Spitfires, it's like design went from it being a bumblebee to a hornet.
21-25TP (designed by Habich) - Well, I guess there's not much to say about this one.
It's essentially a Polish T34-85 and I would highly advise giving the Russians a T34-85 instead of a T-34 because the early models were a disaster later on in the war. At first the T-34 was em... OK and better than all early Panzers but later the Soviets realized that armor and having a wast quantity of tanks is not everything. The Tigers and Panthers dispatched the early T34's with relative ease, later models were somewhat better and it's known that the T-34 drivers were often ordered to literally RAM! (yes ram their tank) right in to German panzers to stop them because the T34's were like cheep candy, cheep... extremely heavy candy. The Germans would shoot at these inexpensive Soviet monsters and the monsters were like the Hordes of Mordor itself! They just kept coming and coming and coming one wave after another. The T34's were very unfinished or perhaps I should say "unpolished" and many were plagued by engine failures and other problems, so if one broke down and the crew survived they'd just get a new T-34. On the other side, the Allies had Sherman's, which were pretty much the same, they had better optics and some Sherman like the American Cobra King were actually even more armed in some places than Tiger I's, also their main guns were (sometimes) refitted with the 76mm gun. As you can imagine - a Cobra King Sherman armed with a 76mm main gun and a new generation of AP rounds could even take down a Tiger I all by itself, although the Tigers would still have an advantage, especially at long range but the tank that was the real Tiger killers were the U.S. M26 Pershing and the British Firefly and Achilles. Some could probably say that I missed the IS-2 but no... just no... don't get me wrong, it was a decent tank to some degree and well armored but the problems with reloading were extreme, around half a minute to load 1 round, much later that was fix and it took around 15-20 seconds but loading the gun was a nightmare - you had to stop and elevate the gun in order to load it, the accuracy was questionable and the targeting tended to be not all that precise, the interior was cramped and it was extremely difficult to load the 122mm's monstrous shell with so little space.
But back to the 21-25TP, there was a prototype made of an earlier version:
The 20-25TP (KSUS) and... it was crap! It was total crap! Well, perhaps it wasn't all that bad but the multi turret design meant that it's 2 lower MG turrets were essentially frontal weaknesses and what have we learned from WWII? Don't make tanks with multiple turrets! They are too complicated, faulty and you just add structural weak-points. And the other thing we have learned from WWII is that all tanks should have a radio because all good tanks of that time period had them (except for a lot of the Russian ones). Radios allowed the tanks to coordinate and very often German tank crews would "play with their Russian food". Since the T-34's often didn't have any means of communication they would get lured in to traps, surrounded, toyed with and eventually destroyed because without a radio they could not organize and the bad optics on the T-34 (especially early models) made shooting a pain in the ass. The Germans even had a saying "Don't worry, the Russians always miss the first shot!" because they did miss, how coud they shoot at long range if the T34 had faulty optics?
Anyway I think that Poland completed only one of these early 20-25TP tanks and decided to abandon the project, that's why the 21-25TP was designed but it was never produced because the war started and (again) there were not enough resources to create an infrastructure for building 21-25TP's but we know the specifications and it was essentially a decent medium tank with good optics and a potent 75mm gun. The tank was smaller than a Panther and essentially a T34-85 with better optics but it would probably be also a bit more expensive to make.
When compared to a T34-85, the 20-25TP would be slightly less armored T34 (32 tons) / 20-25TP (30 tons) but the quality and angles of the armor would give it similar resistance since the T34's had cast and wielded armor, the 20-25TP was on the other hand supposed to have rolled and wielded armor. However the T34 had a thick, sloped rear armor (the T34 - 45mm armor at the front and 40mm at the back along with sloping which made it more effective), the Polish tank was supposed to have some sloping at the back but not enough steel to provide adequate protection (not that it would matter when you are up against a Panther or Tiger) which is why it was lighter and you could inflict the most damage when attacking this vehicle from behind (like most other tanks). In short - the 21-25TP would be better at frontal attacks than a T34-85 but take additional damage when attacked from behind compared to it's Soviet counterpart. It was rather cheep and would have been quick to produce but you'd still need numbers to fight Tigers and Panthers.
Anyway, the Civ series is all about alternative history, so I think it would be nice to give Poland a fair chance in an alternative WWII scenario based on the most promising prototypes and very few people know that such projects even existed.
And by the way, your English is ok but what's a "Polish howbet"?
This time, i read your thread about the reason why the polish defeat in ww2 one time more. I think the most important reason is the depend strategy of polish was fault. if polish army was placement more east like capital region instead a border closed german.. cause german have a east proissen(where at quenihisburk and the cradle of proissen)
So polish army had been surrounded before invasion start. And i was known is the battle of poland, german did not blizkrieg . is not?
i know how the tank group have a powerful destructive cause i read a hitler and stalins war (written by richard ovary. I think you read these book too cause it is called the school book of world war 2 in my country) and legend of bliz (written by karl priezer).
But at the battle of poland, german army do not war as well in chief operation( created by manshtein) or barbarossa cause german dont have a supplies and tank enough .
So i think, if the polish give up west region,
German must defeat on the war. Soviet invasion could not accured cause stalin is a perfect opportunitist.
Even germans ammunition was lack only one months and if the soviet union not invasion cause german army dont crush polish army ,battle get longer and german must defeat at war by the lack of supply and western invasion by france and england army .
I think the most reason of polish defeat was west territory ambitious and england pressure to do not recruit army to dont conflict with german before the war.
But dont give up territory ambitious and more cost is not an polish problem. Stalin do it as same. Ignoring deep battle theory and the suggest to give up ukraine and depend at dnepr river by jukov .
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TheWaWPro updated World War 2 Modpack 11 New Leaders 14 Units and 3 buildings with a new update entry:
Polish Cavalry unit + Big changes on file formating and bugfixes
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Polish Cavalry unit + Big changes on file formating and bugfixes
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TheWaWPro updated World War 2 Modpack 11 New Leaders 15 Units and 3 buildings with a new update entry:
5 new civs and stuff
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5 new civs and stuff
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TheWaWPro updated World War 2 Modpack 16 New Leaders 17 Units and 4buildings with a new update entry:
Leader icon for egypt
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TheWaWPro updated World War 2 Modpack 16 New Leaders 17 Units and 4buildings with a new update entry:
Fixed Moar Unit compatability and Rule Set Changes
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Fixed Moar Unit compatability and Rule Set Changes
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TheWaWPro updated World War 2 Modpack 16 New Leaders 17 Units and 4 buildings with a new update entry:
Rule sets, fun map new unit
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Rule sets, fun map new unit
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Shiggs713
Immortal
nice job with this! I will try it out soon
Working on it it is more complicated than rule sets. Will probably use the Europe map when I figure it out.
dibsdrisc
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2015
- Messages
- 14
thats great to hear , been waiting for so long now for a new waw version ,, check this 1 out please have the map the same, https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/real-wwii.520274/ scroll down to spoliers then look at mini map , thats the best version going ,
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