Alafin
Chieftain
And this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mewtarthio
So you want a "Pluralism" victory condiction? Aside from being non-PC, it wouldn't make any sense. There would still be countless people who would refuse to convert to said religion. Would you just run around and kill them all? Plus I hate the "one religion" idea because I am religious myself. I believe there is one way to heaven, and it doesn't involve a giant amalgm of religions that ends up drastically changing each of its members to the point where you'd never even recognize it. As Calvin (from the comic strip) once said: "A good compromise leaves everyone angry."
My question to you is, would you want a game where Buddhism could become the dominant world religion? I assume you want one where the whole world embraces Christianity, or maybe Islam. Interestingly, both of these religions are at their core religions of brotherly love and international peace, yet even the most cursory review of history will bring to the surface innumerable instances where the religious beliefs of their adherents have been used to justify the most abominable treatment of the believer's fellow human beings (think: slavery in the Southern US justified by slavery in the bible & racism in general around the idea that the black or brown skin of black or brown skinned people was the result of the mark of Cain. Think also of the mentality of the Islamic purist suicide-bombers/terrorists pursuing their campaign of a world run according to Muslim law (aka. shari'a) and the maltreatment that would befall the people of the West should such a plan succeed.)
My assertion is that neither Christianity nor Islam could ever become universally accepted in today's world and so such a possibility should not be written into the game world of Civilization; that at least is my preference. So, instead, let's examine the successive nature of religion, by which I mean that all world religions build upon a foundation created by the immediately preceding world religion. For example, Christianity could not exist in its present form if Jesus Christ did not have the religion of Judaism to draw upon at the very least as a source of material from the collective experience of His audience, but more importantly for the moral, ethical, & prophetic elements contained within Judaism (list of elements not meant to be exhaustive) which JC (may my life be a sacrifice to Him) used to help the people understand the message that He was there to deliver, their understanding of which developed over time into the Christianity of today. So too, Islam emerged in Arabia built upon the foundation stone of Monotheism, borrowed from Christianity & Judaism, that some elements of that society had found a way to embrace in the face of the pervasive paganistic beliefs of the time. The father of Muhammad, the prophet-founder of Islam, (may the Glory of the Lord rest upon Him) was one of these early monotheists.
Which leads to another major point, which is that each of these world religions is in some way an upgrade of what had come before delivered through the Being of a divinely appointed Messenger, the healing energy of His lifeforce, as much as any words that came from His mouth, being the fountainhead of the religion(upgrade) they came to bring. So pervasive is this pattern that the fair-minded thinker will admit that it exists in every truly international world religion. Examine Hinduism and you will find the Lord Krishna; Buddhism has the Buddha, Lord Gautama Siddhartha; Zoroastrianism has Zarathustra. In fact, the existence of Divine Messengers can even be inferred (though not absolutely affirmed) in the religions of some of the so called primitive peoples of the world. In North America, the mythology, practices and highly ethical natures of the Pueblo Indian, Plains Indian and Iroquois Confederacy (whose ideas about society, incidentally, were so advanced that the Founding Fathers of America used some of them in framing the Constitution of the United States) more than hint at the existence of a Divine Messenger figure at the root of their religion. In fact, the Iroquois refer to their religion-giver as the Lawmaker, as in Divine Law-Giver Sent From the Creator.
Another major point is that each of these world-relgions was given to mankind at a specific point in its history, tailored to meet the progressing spiritual capacity of mankind to understand increasingly difficult and abstract concepts and ideas, especially ones with religious application and overtones. Just as what is taught in fourth grade is an extension of and development of ideas and concepts taught in third, so each successive world religion is an extension of and development of what was taught in the previous religion.
Which brings me to my final point, that every world-religion contains within it prophecies of a future phase of mankind where all of the people's of the world are brought together under the banner of one world-religion. Deny it all you want, but in one form or another, hidden behind whatever symbolism was appropriate at the time of its dissemination, there exists in each religion the promise that a Divine Messenger would "return" to usher in an era of world peace. If this is true, and world peace truly is what we want, as some in this forum have said, why not shape this game to better reflect the true central role that religion has and always will play in world history, and to reflect the clear objective that all world religion points to, ie.: the establishment of world peace under the umbrella of a unifying world religion promulgated by a divine Messenger.
This being the case, is it reasonable to believe that one or the other of the previously existing world religions should be made dominant over all the others in light of the long history of contention and evil-use they have been put to? My answer is no; it is not reasonable. Therefore, some other solution to this problem must have been intended by the Divine Creator that gave us the many testimonials to Its thinking that are at the core of the various religions, and that other something can only be a new Divine Messenger with a new, ie: upgraded, divine message, ie:religion, suitable to the times and spiritual capacity of mankind today.
In game terms this could play out as simply as each civ begins the game with a generic "tribal religion". Then as it progresses and discovers the "advanced religion" tech converts to the culturally/historically appropriate religion for it. The Arabs would become Muslims; British, French & Spanish Christian; Persians Zoroastrian (perhaps later becoming Muslim); etc. Perhaps also, to add flavor, each form of religion would give the player some bonuses or advantages, though not so great as to imbalance the game; and perhaps one's co-religionists would be overall more favorably disposed towards you. One could even allow for Communism(atheist religion as distinct from form of government) and Socialism (the irreligion, also distinguished from the governmental form though clearly related, that so many Western peoples have adopted to replace Christianity (which, incidentally, is the real reason Muslim fundamentalists despise us and want to blow us up)) as "religions" that one could convert to in the later stages of the game. But, then, if one wanted to go for the religious victory one's people would need to convert eventually to the Unity religion and work towards establishing world peace by helping to build the network of buildings that would administer such a world-embracing religion (as one possible way to tangibly visualize achieving this goal). This could even be an option available side by side with the traditional space race colony option and would not replace the much-loved-by-some victory-by-conquest option.
Let us not forget that the true meaning of religion is to bind together, not in the sense of to enslave, but in the sense of brotherhood. This is the sense one gathers from an examination of the world's religions that a Divine Creator would have us experience. Surely such a thing is possible.
Humbly submitted,
Alafin Bahahotep
PS: To me hippies, though superficially people of love, are at a deeper level more like godless hedonists therefore fitting into the category of socialism as defined above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mewtarthio
So you want a "Pluralism" victory condiction? Aside from being non-PC, it wouldn't make any sense. There would still be countless people who would refuse to convert to said religion. Would you just run around and kill them all? Plus I hate the "one religion" idea because I am religious myself. I believe there is one way to heaven, and it doesn't involve a giant amalgm of religions that ends up drastically changing each of its members to the point where you'd never even recognize it. As Calvin (from the comic strip) once said: "A good compromise leaves everyone angry."
My question to you is, would you want a game where Buddhism could become the dominant world religion? I assume you want one where the whole world embraces Christianity, or maybe Islam. Interestingly, both of these religions are at their core religions of brotherly love and international peace, yet even the most cursory review of history will bring to the surface innumerable instances where the religious beliefs of their adherents have been used to justify the most abominable treatment of the believer's fellow human beings (think: slavery in the Southern US justified by slavery in the bible & racism in general around the idea that the black or brown skin of black or brown skinned people was the result of the mark of Cain. Think also of the mentality of the Islamic purist suicide-bombers/terrorists pursuing their campaign of a world run according to Muslim law (aka. shari'a) and the maltreatment that would befall the people of the West should such a plan succeed.)
My assertion is that neither Christianity nor Islam could ever become universally accepted in today's world and so such a possibility should not be written into the game world of Civilization; that at least is my preference. So, instead, let's examine the successive nature of religion, by which I mean that all world religions build upon a foundation created by the immediately preceding world religion. For example, Christianity could not exist in its present form if Jesus Christ did not have the religion of Judaism to draw upon at the very least as a source of material from the collective experience of His audience, but more importantly for the moral, ethical, & prophetic elements contained within Judaism (list of elements not meant to be exhaustive) which JC (may my life be a sacrifice to Him) used to help the people understand the message that He was there to deliver, their understanding of which developed over time into the Christianity of today. So too, Islam emerged in Arabia built upon the foundation stone of Monotheism, borrowed from Christianity & Judaism, that some elements of that society had found a way to embrace in the face of the pervasive paganistic beliefs of the time. The father of Muhammad, the prophet-founder of Islam, (may the Glory of the Lord rest upon Him) was one of these early monotheists.
Which leads to another major point, which is that each of these world religions is in some way an upgrade of what had come before delivered through the Being of a divinely appointed Messenger, the healing energy of His lifeforce, as much as any words that came from His mouth, being the fountainhead of the religion(upgrade) they came to bring. So pervasive is this pattern that the fair-minded thinker will admit that it exists in every truly international world religion. Examine Hinduism and you will find the Lord Krishna; Buddhism has the Buddha, Lord Gautama Siddhartha; Zoroastrianism has Zarathustra. In fact, the existence of Divine Messengers can even be inferred (though not absolutely affirmed) in the religions of some of the so called primitive peoples of the world. In North America, the mythology, practices and highly ethical natures of the Pueblo Indian, Plains Indian and Iroquois Confederacy (whose ideas about society, incidentally, were so advanced that the Founding Fathers of America used some of them in framing the Constitution of the United States) more than hint at the existence of a Divine Messenger figure at the root of their religion. In fact, the Iroquois refer to their religion-giver as the Lawmaker, as in Divine Law-Giver Sent From the Creator.
Another major point is that each of these world-relgions was given to mankind at a specific point in its history, tailored to meet the progressing spiritual capacity of mankind to understand increasingly difficult and abstract concepts and ideas, especially ones with religious application and overtones. Just as what is taught in fourth grade is an extension of and development of ideas and concepts taught in third, so each successive world religion is an extension of and development of what was taught in the previous religion.
Which brings me to my final point, that every world-religion contains within it prophecies of a future phase of mankind where all of the people's of the world are brought together under the banner of one world-religion. Deny it all you want, but in one form or another, hidden behind whatever symbolism was appropriate at the time of its dissemination, there exists in each religion the promise that a Divine Messenger would "return" to usher in an era of world peace. If this is true, and world peace truly is what we want, as some in this forum have said, why not shape this game to better reflect the true central role that religion has and always will play in world history, and to reflect the clear objective that all world religion points to, ie.: the establishment of world peace under the umbrella of a unifying world religion promulgated by a divine Messenger.
This being the case, is it reasonable to believe that one or the other of the previously existing world religions should be made dominant over all the others in light of the long history of contention and evil-use they have been put to? My answer is no; it is not reasonable. Therefore, some other solution to this problem must have been intended by the Divine Creator that gave us the many testimonials to Its thinking that are at the core of the various religions, and that other something can only be a new Divine Messenger with a new, ie: upgraded, divine message, ie:religion, suitable to the times and spiritual capacity of mankind today.
In game terms this could play out as simply as each civ begins the game with a generic "tribal religion". Then as it progresses and discovers the "advanced religion" tech converts to the culturally/historically appropriate religion for it. The Arabs would become Muslims; British, French & Spanish Christian; Persians Zoroastrian (perhaps later becoming Muslim); etc. Perhaps also, to add flavor, each form of religion would give the player some bonuses or advantages, though not so great as to imbalance the game; and perhaps one's co-religionists would be overall more favorably disposed towards you. One could even allow for Communism(atheist religion as distinct from form of government) and Socialism (the irreligion, also distinguished from the governmental form though clearly related, that so many Western peoples have adopted to replace Christianity (which, incidentally, is the real reason Muslim fundamentalists despise us and want to blow us up)) as "religions" that one could convert to in the later stages of the game. But, then, if one wanted to go for the religious victory one's people would need to convert eventually to the Unity religion and work towards establishing world peace by helping to build the network of buildings that would administer such a world-embracing religion (as one possible way to tangibly visualize achieving this goal). This could even be an option available side by side with the traditional space race colony option and would not replace the much-loved-by-some victory-by-conquest option.
Let us not forget that the true meaning of religion is to bind together, not in the sense of to enslave, but in the sense of brotherhood. This is the sense one gathers from an examination of the world's religions that a Divine Creator would have us experience. Surely such a thing is possible.
Humbly submitted,
Alafin Bahahotep
PS: To me hippies, though superficially people of love, are at a deeper level more like godless hedonists therefore fitting into the category of socialism as defined above.
We are civfanatics. So we have bigotry too? 
who is it?
what are you doing here?
WHAT?
Come on, just one more turn.
Necromany! Dieties coming down to hurt people! This is Civ, none of that stuff happened in history! Civ is perfectly accurate to history. All else must be eliminated.![[pissed]](/images/smilies/pissed.gif "Pissed [pissed]")
:thumbdown
I can understand why Firaxis would want to avoid controversy, but why you guys? Saying Religion and Culture are analogous is a termendous insult to the identity of both. A religion model would symbolize one of the fundamental debates of the past 6000 years, whose god is better.
And of course it was the Europeans who invented all those terrible things we hate now.. like slavery and misogyny and worst of all.. CHRISTIANITY! 
