I think this is too complicated to implement and would slow down performance even more. Training a sandworm inside a city doesn't mean it is assembled there, it's just an abstract way of sending out some people catching a sandworm and bringing it back to city for further deployment.
worm rider mechanics
- Thread starter davidlallen
- Start date
I think this is too complicated to implement and would slow down performance even more. Training a sandworm inside a city doesn't mean it is assembled there, it's just an abstract way of sending out some people catching a sandworm and bringing it back to city for further deployment.
davidlallen
Deity
I will do a test implementation and measure any performance change.
The problem with your idea imho is that it is 100% flavor only, it doesn't purpose any additional function over building worms inside a city. Yes, I read kael designing guide too. 
I don't want to offend you but python really is slower than sdk. I painfully had to learn this when making my last update for C4C's Europe screen. A good example for that is 'stepDistance'. In sdk you can iterate stepDistance over every plot on map without having any delay. If done in Python it will freeze you computer for several seconds.
Python is best used for interface changes.
I don't want to offend you but python really is slower than sdk. I painfully had to learn this when making my last update for C4C's Europe screen. A good example for that is 'stepDistance'. In sdk you can iterate stepDistance over every plot on map without having any delay. If done in Python it will freeze you computer for several seconds.
Python is best used for interface changes.
davidlallen
Deity
I agree that python should not be used for anything which is computationally intensive. But a good software designer knows that and chooses algorithms which are not computationally intensive.
Back to the topic. My experiment in the terrain double move promotion has failed. It seems that the name of the tag is a little misleading. It halves the terrain cost, unless the terrain cost is already 1. So a unit with move 2, and double move on desert, moves ... 2 squares on desert. Since the point of the project was to allow fremen foot units to move fast on desert, this experiment is a failure.
If somebody feels like it, they can make a "worm rider galley" and we can see how that plays.
Back to the topic. My experiment in the terrain double move promotion has failed. It seems that the name of the tag is a little misleading. It halves the terrain cost, unless the terrain cost is already 1. So a unit with move 2, and double move on desert, moves ... 2 squares on desert. Since the point of the project was to allow fremen foot units to move fast on desert, this experiment is a failure.
If somebody feels like it, they can make a "worm rider galley" and we can see how that plays.
davidlallen
Deity
This thread had attracted some strong opinions. I now have a prototype working which has practically zero impact on runtime. I have added a Fremen UU, "Fremen Soldier", which is a duplicate of the normal soldier. Except, it can move into any desert terrain, and when it does so, it gets a unit art swap to Worm Rider Soldier. A Worm Rider Soldier has a movement of 3 and can travel on any terrain. When a Worm Rider Soldier steps on land terrain, it gets a unit art swap back to Fremen Soldier.
Effectively, the soldier is now a unit which can travel on desert at movement 3, plus the graphics are cooler. Right now, the unit art for Worm Rider Soldier just points to the basic sandworm, so you will see a wormsign sand dome. Someday we may have a "Ridden Worm" graphic where the worm travels above ground.
This requires two units to be added for each unit which will "convert". I will add the Fremen Settler, Worker and Scout, for four unique units. This should make the Fremen strong early game and raider units. I can add it for later Fremen units, as long as the list is not too huge. Probably these are the only UU that Fremen will need.
(The runtime issue I reported in the 1.3.6 release note was not due to graphics. I keep forgetting, and painfully relearning, that you should never kill or add units in the middle of the AI movement loop.)
Now that the performance issue is avoided, does anybody have any real objection to this? I like it a lot better than training Worm Riders in cities, especially now that I have changed the worm to disallow movement onto land in 1.3.7.
Effectively, the soldier is now a unit which can travel on desert at movement 3, plus the graphics are cooler. Right now, the unit art for Worm Rider Soldier just points to the basic sandworm, so you will see a wormsign sand dome. Someday we may have a "Ridden Worm" graphic where the worm travels above ground.
This requires two units to be added for each unit which will "convert". I will add the Fremen Settler, Worker and Scout, for four unique units. This should make the Fremen strong early game and raider units. I can add it for later Fremen units, as long as the list is not too huge. Probably these are the only UU that Fremen will need.
(The runtime issue I reported in the 1.3.6 release note was not due to graphics. I keep forgetting, and painfully relearning, that you should never kill or add units in the middle of the AI movement loop.)
Now that the performance issue is avoided, does anybody have any real objection to this? I like it a lot better than training Worm Riders in cities, especially now that I have changed the worm to disallow movement onto land in 1.3.7.
But does it mean when i play the fremen and I send 20 soldier's through the desert, there will be 20 sandworms with strength 2 each? Isn't that completely devaluing the concept of wormriders? I always had the impression riding a sandworm was used for ritualistic reasons or powerful attacks. Now even the first combat thopter can easily kill them. 
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
Maybe we can work towards a best-of-both-worlds solution...
If your graphic swapping is now working, why not make the unit an all-terrain transport with cargo space? When on land the unit can be called Worm Rider Team, and loading Fremen onto it represents assembling a posse ready to capture and ride the worm. When it moves onto the coast it changes into the Worm Rider unit.
This captures the idea of many Fremen riding the worm - you're solution basically is one worm per person which is not very true to the books/film.
The Worm Rider Team/Worm Rider has to be fairly tough or get bonuses against all the combat types that could take it out too easily. Also it should only transport people type units.
If this could be done, I'd prefer it.
Perhaps sooner than you think...
If your graphic swapping is now working, why not make the unit an all-terrain transport with cargo space? When on land the unit can be called Worm Rider Team, and loading Fremen onto it represents assembling a posse ready to capture and ride the worm. When it moves onto the coast it changes into the Worm Rider unit.
This captures the idea of many Fremen riding the worm - you're solution basically is one worm per person which is not very true to the books/film.
The Worm Rider Team/Worm Rider has to be fairly tough or get bonuses against all the combat types that could take it out too easily. Also it should only transport people type units.
If this could be done, I'd prefer it.
Perhaps sooner than you think...
Ahriman
Tyrant
David's idea sounds fine for the early game where the worms are just being used for transport, but I would definitely want buildable high strength attack-worms for the late game - Fremen should be naval superiority fighters (the british empire of arrakis ;-) whose desert units are better than those of others, but are weaker or slower land.
However, I also don't see the problem with just having worms as naval transports.
But I don't see how these ideas conflict.
a) early game worm riders who are using small worms as transports but can't make them fight, as in David's implementation
b) mid-game worm transports replacing hover transports; higher strength, higher movement, no resource requirement, but unable to move on land tiles. Buildable in cities.
c) late-game attack worms with high strength and decent movement, but unable to move on land tiles. Buildable in cities.
Is it just the lack of coastal cities that is an issue for b) and c)?
However, I also don't see the problem with just having worms as naval transports.
But I don't see how these ideas conflict.
a) early game worm riders who are using small worms as transports but can't make them fight, as in David's implementation
b) mid-game worm transports replacing hover transports; higher strength, higher movement, no resource requirement, but unable to move on land tiles. Buildable in cities.
c) late-game attack worms with high strength and decent movement, but unable to move on land tiles. Buildable in cities.
Is it just the lack of coastal cities that is an issue for b) and c)?
davidlallen
Deity
deliverator said:
This is only visible when the units move, not when they are stationary. When a stack of vanilla tanks move, you see the units moving kind of overlapped, like a convoy. I think that would look nice for a stack of Fremen, actually.
Now even the first combat thopter can easily kill them.
I have no problem with a thopter flying by and shooting the fremen off the top of the worm. There might be no damage to the worm itself. I was thinking of making them defensive only when in worm form, but maybe something like, cannot be attacked by foot units? They still need to be able to pillage improvements and they should not be blocked by foot units.
ahriman said:
We already had about a dozen posts discussing this earlier in this thread. Now we have all agreed that worms cannot move on land. So landlocked cities cannot use this unit for transport. They can build the unit and it will teleport away to the nearest deep desert, and the AI will forget it is there.
Sure, changing this in the SDK would be nice; but the AI code is the most complex thing in the game, and the chances of changing this and getting it to work well seem small. If somebody puts in the work and gets the AI to perform amphibious assault even when the transport unit has teleported out of the city, we can certainly switch over to that solution.
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
What about the all terrain transport Worm Team/Worm Rider approach I outlined?
Ahriman
Tyrant
Another way to get Fremen to be Desert Superiority fighters; even if you can't get the worms to actually work as naval-only units, why not just give them big combat bonuses in desert waste and deep desert tiles? Like 50%?
davidlallen
Deity
That is an interesting idea. I am not quite sure how it would work. If we use it to carry troops on an amphibious assault, there are three movement stages: (a) travel to the desert (maybe only a few squares), (b) travel in the desert, and (c) travel after leaving the desert. If it is an all terrain vehicle, what does it look like during (a) and (c)? Are they riding "inside" the worm during (a) and (c)? Or are the units all walking individually, using their own defense strength? It seems complicated to make a transport which doesn't really exist especially for (c).
Deliverator
Graphical Hackificator
It is only an all terrain vehicle in terms of the mechanic. Graphically, for your three states, it is:
(a) a group of Fremen soldiers.
(b) a groups of Fremen soldiers on a worm.
(c) a group of Fremen soldiers.
The Fremen move around and attack en masse in general. You could call the on-land state Fremen Troop (the term used in the book is troop). So you build a Fremen Troop which then 'carries' other units, when it is on sand it switches to the troop riding on a worm.
(a) a group of Fremen soldiers.
(b) a groups of Fremen soldiers on a worm.
(c) a group of Fremen soldiers.
The Fremen move around and attack en masse in general. You could call the on-land state Fremen Troop (the term used in the book is troop). So you build a Fremen Troop which then 'carries' other units, when it is on sand it switches to the troop riding on a worm.
davidlallen
Deity
So in (a) and (c), the combat strength of the transport is used when the stack is attacked. If this is small, then the stronger units are at risk. If this is large, then the unit is very effective when empty. What stats should we use for the land version?
Ahriman
Tyrant
Make the unit unable to attack, give it medium combat strength, and give it a strength bonus when in desert wastes and deep desert.
So its never an effective attacker (its a transport - carryalls should probably also be unable to attack), and its not a very good defender on land, but its an excellent defender in deserts.
So its basically a carryall, but with lower movement on land, lower defense on land, but higher defense on desert, and only carries infantry.
So its never an effective attacker (its a transport - carryalls should probably also be unable to attack), and its not a very good defender on land, but its an excellent defender in deserts.
So its basically a carryall, but with lower movement on land, lower defense on land, but higher defense on desert, and only carries infantry.
davidlallen
Deity
I think it would be misleading to draw this transport unit as one foot unit stacked with several other foot units, when it is on land. So I will discard the idea of unit art swapping. It will appear as a worm both on land and desert. The unit itself will still have to swap, in order to get the higher desert movement rate; I wish there was some other way to accomplish this effect. It is highly likely that unit swapping a transport will unload the cargo, which is a fatal problem, so I will probably have to write more code for that.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Why don't you try asking the FFH people how they got double moves in terrain X to work differently from how it does in vanilla?
Thats the mechanic you want really; something that travels faster in the ocean than on land.
Thats the mechanic you want really; something that travels faster in the ocean than on land.
Maniac
Apolyton Sage
You could make worms capturable. See FfH animals and Planetfall native life.
