I seem to recall some old hands like @TheMeInTeam saying that ORG > FIN because of maintenance, but I don't recall the context. I think it was his Ragnar LP? 
I could be misremembering.
I could be misremembering.
Worst Civ?
- Thread starter danjuno
- Start date
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2008
- Messages
- 27,762
Maybe I said that then, but I'm not sure I'd still say the same now. Probably, FIN was overrated and ORG a bit underrated back then, but FIN is still better.
ArchGhost
Prince
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2016
- Messages
- 530
I like when these pop up every now and then because I get to see how my opinions shift over time
Worst Civs, as in divorced from their standard leader, or not taking into account traits at all, are Holy Rome, the Celts, Aztecs, and then just a little better than that are Arabs and Greeks. They all have terrible starting tech combos and their uniques are too niche/too late, ineffectual or just plain bad.
Japan on a bad day is at least as good Arabia all things considered. The Wheel is always a good starting tech though not top tier, and fishing is usually better than Myst and definitely better than Hunting. Japan can open Pottery after food, which is nice compensation for slow BW time even if you don't start with coast/lakes for slightly more commerce.
Spain is actually a good example of how nice Uniques *can* influence a civ despite crappy starting techs, as her Uniques are very powerful.
When you bring in leader traits Greeks get lifted up quite a bit nowhere near worst, Celts become not complete bottom of the barrel thanks to CHA and even better CHA/AGG (an amazing early game combo), and Toku and Charlie improve with AGG and IMP respectively, leaving Saladin firmly in the dust with his only positive benefit being The Wheel with the two worst traits in the game that have no synergy. Yes, I consider SPI to be worse than all other traits except the even more terrible PRO, don't @me haha, I have plenty of rants on here already as to why I think that. He doesn't even have Hunting to do Archer chokes like Charlie can (though PRO + Hunting is unique to Charlie).
All things considered it's either Arabia or Brennus as overall worst, it's just hard to glean anything out of them beyond the single upside each has. I'd still put Brennus over Saladin because you can at least immediately gun for your +happiness boost since you start with Myst, even if he lacks Boudica's better AGG trait for the early game. Saladin basically just has roads and border pops going for him and nothing else.
Charlie has IMP which is quite abuseable (especially when your starting techs SUCK and you have to use unimproved tiles for longer!), and can archer choke while you tech if you are getting boxed or simply go right there if barbs are rowdy, either way the Archers are enchanced though this only really matter for chokes. The Rathaus is kinda meh, but they do have an effect you can feel. But it's a courthouse nonetheless. He can match Saladin's early border popping so IMP +Archery option for choke or barbs puts him slightly ahead. I don't find Charlie hard to play, but you do value native hammer tiles a lot more (PH start, 3h forests, Marble/Stone hills, etc) and will get frustrated if you don't have a lot/any of them.
Monty can at least pop his borders early and also has the option to handle barbs with AGG warriors + cheap barracks. I actually do like the Mysticism tech if you can't play CRE and your other tech is good (Agriculture or Mining) since I hate delaying border pops, though no such luck here Like IMP, AGG is a trait that I used to sleep on but it is sooooo useful when you don't get Copper in like 90% of games. A cheap Barracks and double promoted Warriors will let you handle barbs up to Archers usually long enough to fully fogbust before Spears/Axes come or get access to metal, whichever comes first. His UB looks good on paper but it's another courthouse, so eh.
Tokugawa is still better, with AGG+Wheel both. He's considerably better on any coastal start, sorta similar to Spain, which helps to give you something to do with your turns (getting workboats built) while you tech what other food you need then BW. And he doesn't have the Hunting poison pill, so he actually has a Warrior to start with. I'm currently playing through a Toku start right now and I am doing considerably better than the last 4 false start games I had with Rosie/Shaka(twice)/Wang Kon, though that is largely due to coastal start + actually having some rivers to use, and no other capitol 8-11 tiles away EVERY TIME.
Worst Civs, as in divorced from their standard leader, or not taking into account traits at all, are Holy Rome, the Celts, Aztecs, and then just a little better than that are Arabs and Greeks. They all have terrible starting tech combos and their uniques are too niche/too late, ineffectual or just plain bad.
Japan on a bad day is at least as good Arabia all things considered. The Wheel is always a good starting tech though not top tier, and fishing is usually better than Myst and definitely better than Hunting. Japan can open Pottery after food, which is nice compensation for slow BW time even if you don't start with coast/lakes for slightly more commerce.
Spain is actually a good example of how nice Uniques *can* influence a civ despite crappy starting techs, as her Uniques are very powerful.
When you bring in leader traits Greeks get lifted up quite a bit nowhere near worst, Celts become not complete bottom of the barrel thanks to CHA and even better CHA/AGG (an amazing early game combo), and Toku and Charlie improve with AGG and IMP respectively, leaving Saladin firmly in the dust with his only positive benefit being The Wheel with the two worst traits in the game that have no synergy. Yes, I consider SPI to be worse than all other traits except the even more terrible PRO, don't @me haha, I have plenty of rants on here already as to why I think that. He doesn't even have Hunting to do Archer chokes like Charlie can (though PRO + Hunting is unique to Charlie).
All things considered it's either Arabia or Brennus as overall worst, it's just hard to glean anything out of them beyond the single upside each has. I'd still put Brennus over Saladin because you can at least immediately gun for your +happiness boost since you start with Myst, even if he lacks Boudica's better AGG trait for the early game. Saladin basically just has roads and border pops going for him and nothing else.
Charlie has IMP which is quite abuseable (especially when your starting techs SUCK and you have to use unimproved tiles for longer!), and can archer choke while you tech if you are getting boxed or simply go right there if barbs are rowdy, either way the Archers are enchanced though this only really matter for chokes. The Rathaus is kinda meh, but they do have an effect you can feel. But it's a courthouse nonetheless. He can match Saladin's early border popping so IMP +Archery option for choke or barbs puts him slightly ahead. I don't find Charlie hard to play, but you do value native hammer tiles a lot more (PH start, 3h forests, Marble/Stone hills, etc) and will get frustrated if you don't have a lot/any of them.
Monty can at least pop his borders early and also has the option to handle barbs with AGG warriors + cheap barracks. I actually do like the Mysticism tech if you can't play CRE and your other tech is good (Agriculture or Mining) since I hate delaying border pops, though no such luck here Like IMP, AGG is a trait that I used to sleep on but it is sooooo useful when you don't get Copper in like 90% of games. A cheap Barracks and double promoted Warriors will let you handle barbs up to Archers usually long enough to fully fogbust before Spears/Axes come or get access to metal, whichever comes first. His UB looks good on paper but it's another courthouse, so eh.
Tokugawa is still better, with AGG+Wheel both. He's considerably better on any coastal start, sorta similar to Spain, which helps to give you something to do with your turns (getting workboats built) while you tech what other food you need then BW. And he doesn't have the Hunting poison pill, so he actually has a Warrior to start with. I'm currently playing through a Toku start right now and I am doing considerably better than the last 4 false start games I had with Rosie/Shaka(twice)/Wang Kon, though that is largely due to coastal start + actually having some rivers to use, and no other capitol 8-11 tiles away EVERY TIME.
That's the thing with Toku/Izzy or other fishing Civs, if you do roll a good coastal start, you're not actually in that bad of a position, whereas with Saladin you have no food, and a civ with Hunting as the only food tech like the Celts you're banking on exactly one food resource (deer).
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2008
- Messages
- 27,762
One thing you can do with Toku that is sometimes overlooked is win a medieval timing pretty hard. It is often possible to cut either horses or iron from AI, blocking 10-12 str mounted that ignore your first strikes (and if iron is cut, further xbow production too). Even if you can't, the % you get on CR samurai is pretty healthy with minimal collateral, so you need to either produce a ton of trebs, utilize spies, or realistically both. It's not as good as playing with a tech lead and drafting 40-50 rifles, but you can at least start producing the stuff sooner. Generic aggressive civs can do this to a lesser extent as well, and though it won't be quite as nice as having samurai, being able to produce anti-cav promoted pikes out of the gate and boosted maces is still useful.
Bonus to such an approach is that you don't really need a high-end econ for it to work. A bulb or two + trading and you can get civil service + engineering w/o too much fuss. You can also generally make up any tech deficit if you conquer a good chunk of land, through trades and possibly using culture trap tech theft if you really need it.
About resource cutting: be creative. Use open borders with 3rd party, suicide galley, and terrain promotions. If you can get onto a hill or forest, the AI will generally not target that if you have the counter-units...it doesn't mass to pick off raiding parties so if you prevent initial attack it just won't attack at all. A 2 move unit can then move off the defensive terrain and pillage. AI workers won't move to improve the tile again due to nearby threat.
Edit: Aztecs being bad with their access to the sac altar is a pretty spicy take!
Bonus to such an approach is that you don't really need a high-end econ for it to work. A bulb or two + trading and you can get civil service + engineering w/o too much fuss. You can also generally make up any tech deficit if you conquer a good chunk of land, through trades and possibly using culture trap tech theft if you really need it.
About resource cutting: be creative. Use open borders with 3rd party, suicide galley, and terrain promotions. If you can get onto a hill or forest, the AI will generally not target that if you have the counter-units...it doesn't mass to pick off raiding parties so if you prevent initial attack it just won't attack at all. A 2 move unit can then move off the defensive terrain and pillage. AI workers won't move to improve the tile again due to nearby threat.
Edit: Aztecs being bad with their access to the sac altar is a pretty spicy take!
Plains-Cow
Best Resource; Always Wins
It depends. Are we talking about civilizations alone sans-leaders, or are we including leaders too? If we are including same-ethnic leaders, then Japan has to be one of my least favorite because you're forced to play as Tokugawa and his traits aren't economic at all unless you want to go full warmonger.
As far as civilizations go without taking their leaders into consideration, I'd say the Celts. Their UB is a waste, and their UU is useful in only the most absolute niche instances compared to what they replace that I never end up using them.
As far as civilizations go without taking their leaders into consideration, I'd say the Celts. Their UB is a waste, and their UU is useful in only the most absolute niche instances compared to what they replace that I never end up using them.
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2008
- Messages
- 27,762
^ Celt UU/UB is probably relevant in a higher % of games than USA/Germany to be fair. Guerilla 1 isn't going to carry a game, but every now and then you will get attacked on a hill or can take guerilla 2 and 2 move into AI land to pillage/block improvement on some strategic resource with units that are difficult to dislodge to lift the choke.
Is that amazing or game changing? Not really. However, compared to "literally nothing in a relevant timeframe" from USA, it's technically better. Same deal for building swords with copper. That isn't actually *good*, but it's not "literally nothing", maybe you get a barb city guarded by archers a bit easier than another civ in same situation who lacks iron. Expected value of that is close to nothing on game to game basis, but higher than expected times where SEALs do something meaningful to the outcome.
This is also why stuff like musketeers are better than generic units and thus keep France out of complete gutter. Musketeers chase cuirassers or even cavalry fine, can be drafted, and are adequate defenders to stuff into cities (or to kill damaged units) before the AI picks up cannons/rifles/cav of its own, and thus give you some value greater than a generic unit in a timeframe that impacts the game a bit. You'd rather have a quecha, sac altar, ikhanda, praetorian, keshik etc (unless you're isolated where maybe praetorians/keshiks aren't that impactful). But at least it's worth SOMETHING in some games.
Is that amazing or game changing? Not really. However, compared to "literally nothing in a relevant timeframe" from USA, it's technically better. Same deal for building swords with copper. That isn't actually *good*, but it's not "literally nothing", maybe you get a barb city guarded by archers a bit easier than another civ in same situation who lacks iron. Expected value of that is close to nothing on game to game basis, but higher than expected times where SEALs do something meaningful to the outcome.
This is also why stuff like musketeers are better than generic units and thus keep France out of complete gutter. Musketeers chase cuirassers or even cavalry fine, can be drafted, and are adequate defenders to stuff into cities (or to kill damaged units) before the AI picks up cannons/rifles/cav of its own, and thus give you some value greater than a generic unit in a timeframe that impacts the game a bit. You'd rather have a quecha, sac altar, ikhanda, praetorian, keshik etc (unless you're isolated where maybe praetorians/keshiks aren't that impactful). But at least it's worth SOMETHING in some games.
Plains-Cow
Best Resource; Always Wins
Maybe I'm one of the only people who sometimes plays on advance starts when the mood strikes (I really like doing the 1000AD scenario, for instance), and when you're able to actually use panzers and SEALS, then I think they're amazing for their eras. To note my post, I didn't say the Celt's UU was "literally nothing." Seems to me like the Celt's UU is only useful in that niche area like what you just said. Even then, unless you get Guerilla 3 soon for the hills rampaging and city-busting UU sword replacement to crack a nut on a hill, I'd be more interested in harrying with longbows and some mounted 2-move unit that can clean up and move back into a thorny stack. They're even better thanks to their natural hill bonuses. Additionally, the Celtic civ's UU and UB combo feels even more of a waste because they don't act synergistically with one another; the UU already starts with Guerilla I and the UB doesn't give it II. Good civs have UUs and UBs that either boost one another or help with a leader's already-existing traits. I feel like the Celts are just all over the place with what they offer in a game where specialization is usually key.
Also, thank you TMIT for all the CIV IV videos you've posted that are still on your YouTube channel. I've learned a lot from you and have gotten countless hours of entertainment from watching you play against high-level AIs. Would you ever consider posting more videos one day? Always liked your humor and your takes on the AIs. Still rember the Haxzor Darius let's play. Those barbs did you dirty, bro.
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2008
- Messages
- 27,762
I have mulled returning to YouTube...I even updated OBS a few days ago. However, I don't think I'd return to Civ 4 any time soon. I am quite rusty, and though I played and won an immortal game here a few months ago I am definitely a weaker player than previously/have forgotten a lot. I would likely stream or record things I play a lot at present, some combination of EU 4, Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, people kicking me in Ultimate Chicken Horse, or maybe even some Dominions 5 (probably not, managing turns to do that is a pain). With DCSS in particular, it helps that I'm probably better at that than I ever was at Civ 4 haha. Maybe FTL multiverse mod too.
Plains-Cow
Best Resource; Always Wins
Nice. Though I'm clearly biased, I think people would love to see you dust off your CIV IV skills on stream. Gratz on that dominant DCSS ranking; how was your recent CIV IV stuff? I can't win on Immortal regularly enough to call myself competent at it. Mostly I play and win Emperor ~95% of the time.
Which civs are your least favorites in the game?
TheMeInTeam
If A implies B...
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2008
- Messages
- 27,762
I kind of like bad civs, so I'm not sure I have a least favorite. Maybe I'd pick on the color.
Plains-Cow
Best Resource; Always Wins
Bad=challenging, so I can appreciate the fun in that. There's always something satisfying in leading an army of little woodelves to victory against a seemingly unstoppable horde. Or submitting Monty as Sitting Bull.
Ever seen Sullla's CIV IV AI Survivor series? That's a riot seeing all the AIs go at it and all of their bonkers decision making. "Worst" civilization seems to just be the one with the least luck.
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2008
- Messages
- 24,114
Yep, Sullla's AI survivor series is fairly popular here and we usually have a discussion here when it's live. Seems we are about due for a new one soon.
Plains-Cow
Best Resource; Always Wins
Really? That's pretty awesome. I've only seen about half of his stuff. Would be cool if there were watch parties on some nights where it's streamed and we could hang or something if he makes any new ones. It seems like it's been a year; any idea if he's going to do more for sure or not?
Similar threads
