Worst Dictators Ever?

[Anubisdk2]

Originally posted by Amenhotep7


No, I mean I can't decide between them.




Democracy has proven itself from the year the Americans won the revolution. It's constitution has lasted the longest, and the people are guaranteed rights. Whereas in communist countries:

1) Soviet Union
-Repressed religion
-people starved
-only party members could vote, the people had no say whatsoever, and they're all about "the people".
-no ability to say what they wanted to say

2)China
-cultural revolution killed off thousads, left many more lives ruined
-Mao guilty of genocide...Perhaps Jiang was, but it wasn't driven by madness, just accidental
-current leader uses "internet spies" to track down and blacklist political dissidents
-people have no freedom to say what they want to say
-child labor (I think so...Maybe not. )
-current leader executes thousands per year
-the current communist system is failing. Almost every small town and village has held elections for local leaders, and the people begin to see the advantages of such a system
-the current system is also failing as the party begins to take more criticism (sp?)
-Had to kill THOUSANDS of political dissenters with military in Tiananmen (sp?) Square

3) North Korea
-not even defined internationally as a communist state. It's a dictatorship
- Kim Sung-Il passed power to his son Kim Jong-Il, thus creating a monarchy
-takes aid in food and money from US and then goes around and tells it's students to call President Bush "Hitler" and Americans "Nazis".
-Develops nuclear weapons instead of building an infrastructure. Just look at this pic: http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0011/earthlights2_dmsp_big.jpg Look at NK. Almost NO lightsl.
-People are starving
-Experiments on children

Ok, I like what you said hear. Your information was very accurate except for a few things.

First, you are absolutely correct that (in Churchill's words) ...Democracy is the worst form of government except all others... But, our Democracy is not direct, and it can never be, too many people. Such countries like Sweden, Norway, Denmark can/could to this because they are smaller. That would be the BEST, but in our country it is too hard.

However, you are forgetting one very important part of the equation, most of the Eastern Part of the world (except for India) has never experienced a Democracy or a representative government. We cannot expect these people to just throw down their ways of over 6000 years and pick up Democracy. Ask a Chinese peasant (yes there are over 900 million of them) what a vote it, free speech, democracy, etc..., they will look at you funny. They will have no idea what it is. In studying English and American history, the reason why our country was so prepare was because of the English system and how it prepared us for this system.

In Russia, they are having serious problems because they do not understand rule of law. That people are punished by the laws (China is going to have this problem in the future), and not by the rule of men. Russia is a cluster $&*# when it comes to democracy and I have no idea how to even begin to fix it. They are so used to an autocratic system, it will be hard for them, not impossible, but hard to fix it. Using Spain as an example, a dictator was able to shape the government and people into being ready for this type after he died.

China is interesting. China is a so-called Communist government, but really it is more Facist than anything. No, they are not Nazis, but facist. Look up what that gov't is if you have any questions. They have private ownership, they cannot be communist, but they have rule of men, not of law. One could even say they have a red emperor. I dont think Jiang is a powerful leader, some people think he is just the middle man between Deng and someone else. I guess only time will tell. BTW, your stats on Tiannamen square incident (June 4th incident) are a little off. Some people have looked into this, but according to China Wakes, a great book btw, the number dead is probably only 1-2 thousand, but we will never get the accurate number.

North Korea - I agree that it is not socialist or communist, another autocratic system. I dont know what to think about this country, but I wonder who is going to get more angry first, the Chinese or Americans. My friends that are from Korea (south)...some say that they are almost 2 different cultures at this point. But I agree with what you have put there. Building nukes is more important than feeding your people...really??? Maybe someday they will learn.

 

[Tathlum]

However, you are forgetting one very important part of the equation, most of the Eastern Part of the world (except for India) has never experienced a Democracy or a representative government. We cannot expect these people to just throw down their ways of over 6000 years and pick up Democracy. Ask a Chinese peasant (yes there are over 900 million of them) what a vote it, free speech, democracy, etc..., they will look at you funny. They will have no idea what it is. In studying English and American history, the reason why our country was so prepare was because of the English system and how it prepared us for this system.

I DESPISE this line of reasoning. So what if they haven't experienced democracy in 6000 years. Sure if you find a chinesse guy that is 6000 years old I'll accept your arguement, after 6 millenia of experience He might not understand something new, but I can explain Democracy and voting to a twenty year old who has experience first hand totalitarianism. "They" ae no worse prepared for it than the west. Tradition has nothing to do with it, Human rights are Human rights.
Forget PC, be truely honestly colour-blind. Don't assign people traits, good or bad, on racial grounds. Everyone is human. Are democratic rights a Human right. Do people deserve a say in government? If the answer is yes for the west then it is also true for the east, north and south. It is not enough to say "its in their culture" and wash your hands of a situation. Arabs and Chinesse people dont have democracy because they are ruled by selfish, despotic little ****s who just love it when we say "ah well, its their way" and turn a blind eye. The West being a "democratic paradise" has bugger all to do with race or culture. During the middle ages Arabia was an enlightened paradise compared to the tin pot, savage little kingdoms that made up Europe.
Upholding the rights of people has been a constant struggle against the selfise elements of society that seek enrichment for themselves at the expense of others. "Western" democracy are continualy threatened by the rise of powerfull interests/ institutions that arise naturally in a free society but can grow enough to undermine a Nation. Spain, Italy and Germany all fell to Fasict interest which all began small. Living in a democracy has nothing to do with History or location. It means that you ancestors were lucky enough to be given a chance to seive control of their own destinies, took it and every generation since has fought hard to keep it.
Nation, Tradition and Cultural differences are all high sounding Ideals that will be used to distract from the true problem. We are all familiar with the tactic of a democratic government using foreign crisises to disract from scandals at home. Do you really thing Dictators are too stupid to use the same tactic. They're evil, not stupid...

 

[Mîtiu Ioan]

Originally posted by Kafka2
That's Kim Il-Sung, isn't it?

Yes - my mistake.
Thanks for correcting me at this point.

Anyway - I have to exprim a little "surprise" here related with Romanian's Communist leaders ... the predecessor of Nicolae Ceausescu, Gheorghe Gh. Dej and his staff was far more brutal and opressive than Ceausescu ...
But still the last one is more "world-wide known" !!!

Regards

 

[Stefan Haertel]

Anubis: Let's just forget this bullsh*t, we have different opinions and let's keep it that way.

 

[Anubisdk2]

Stefan agree, but it has nothing to do with this topic.

 

[Anubisdk2]

Originally posted by Tathlum


I DESPISE this line of reasoning. So what if they haven't experienced democracy in 6000 years. Sure if you find a chinesse guy that is 6000 years old I'll accept your arguement, after 6 millenia of experience He might not understand something new, but I can explain Democracy and voting to a twenty year old who has experience first hand totalitarianism. "They" ae no worse prepared for it than the west. Tradition has nothing to do with it, Human rights are Human rights.
Forget PC, be truely honestly colour-blind. Don't assign people traits, good or bad, on racial grounds. Everyone is human. Are democratic rights a Human right. Do people deserve a say in government? If the answer is yes for the west then it is also true for the east, north and south. It is not enough to say "its in their culture" and wash your hands of a situation. Arabs and Chinesse people dont have democracy because they are ruled by selfish, despotic little ****s who just love it when we say "ah well, its their way" and turn a blind eye. The West being a "democratic paradise" has bugger all to do with race or culture. During the middle ages Arabia was an enlightened paradise compared to the tin pot, savage little kingdoms that made up Europe.
Upholding the rights of people has been a constant struggle against the selfise elements of society that seek enrichment for themselves at the expense of others. "Western" democracy are continualy threatened by the rise of powerfull interests/ institutions that arise naturally in a free society but can grow enough to undermine a Nation. Spain, Italy and Germany all fell to Fasict interest which all began small. Living in a democracy has nothing to do with History or location. It means that you ancestors were lucky enough to be given a chance to seive control of their own destinies, took it and every generation since has fought hard to keep it.
Nation, Tradition and Cultural differences are all high sounding Ideals that will be used to distract from the true problem. We are all familiar with the tactic of a democratic government using foreign crisises to disract from scandals at home. Do you really thing Dictators are too stupid to use the same tactic. They're evil, not stupid...

Ok, I agree with about 95% of this post and most of it I was not debating. I realize how much of the world was ahead of Europe even as recent as the early 1700s, however because of reasons of thought, action and mind on both sides, the west was able to catch up and pass the east.

I hope and I think that every country on this planet should have a representative government. And with all types of gov't and no matter where it is, you are going to have corruption. I was not debating whether or not China could or should have a democracy, but they will have the hardest time doing so. 900 million people is a huge number, and that is just the number of peasants, not total people in the country.

I do not think it has to do with the color of skin or ethnicity, but you are forgetting that governments are some what ingrained in culture. To my knowledge, it does not say in the Qu'ran does it say that women should be at the bottom of the rung, but it does imply that in the bible. (Eve and the apple, coming from Adam's rib, etc...) But these feeling are cast all through out the world. Women, in many cultures have become the 2nd class citizen. Only through representative governments, have women made strides and with education too. I am sure you will agree that religion plays a huge role in culture, and why not government. When your culture has a system like the Chinese or Russian ingrained in it for thousands of years, it is a tough system to break. I am not disagreeing with you that it cant be done, because I believe it can. However, you are being overly idealistic if you think it will happen any time soon.

Why are african-americans finally making strides in the last 50 years in the U.S.? One word....education. They are educated to what is right and wrong and how to go about correcting it. (That is not to say they didnt know right from wrong, but I am implying they understood the ways to fight discrimination legally and challenge it in all areas of life.) Chinese peasants, Russian peasants, middle eastern peasants, african peasants are not widely educated, so therefore they do not know what can be done. Yes, people come along and bring the masses together to start a revolution and begin again, but ask Mao what happened after his gov't basically abandoned the peasants after 1950. The leaders wont say it, but the peasants dont know any better. If they were educated, they would know better and the gov't would not be able to do this to them. I agree I am thankful for my ancestors, but more so I am thankful that the English were able to establish a basis for our country to grow from. I am very patriotic for my country, but I am not blind to how it acts in other parts of the world and nor do I believe that is is always correct. But I am thankful for my system and try to understand why other systems like ours do not last as long as our does. We had a debate about this at work (I teach social studies) and we all agreed that it was because of American and British history with government and the changes of that system were we able to build on it to what we have today. Sure, we can thank John Marshall for establishing Judicial Review and perhaps saving our system from a stalemate, but the U.S has been extremely lucky as well. Life is part luck, I have come to agree...

Spain, Italy and Germany all had different circumstances. The Weimar Republic was weak and thanks to the Treaty of Versailles and Georges Clemenceau insistance that Germany be punished for that war (which was caused by more than Germany's blank check to Austria-Hungary) Germans had a right to feel the Dolchstoss (stab in the back). They were still controlling French lands when the war ended!!! When the depression hit, Germany was crushed and it made it possible for a Facist gov't to arise. Hitler and his Nazi party would of course take advantage of these conditions and rise to power.

Spain had a autocratic system with Alfonso XIII as the leader. He was ruthless and unjust. He was anti-democratic and punished all of his enemies. When he was overthrown in 1923, another man, Miguel Primo de Rivera, came to power and did not leave either, even after he promised only 90 days. So because of these failed promises, discontent was growing. Yes, democratic elections took place in the 1930s but still no reforms were taking place. Serious problems arose and eventually 2 sides emerged, Nationalists and "Republicans". Franco eventually arose as the victor and arranged the executions of 100,000 Republican prisoners. It is estimated that another 35,000 Republicans died in concentration camps in the years that followed the war. Ruthless, The wily Franco learned how to avoid mistakes made by other regimes, allowing his policies to become more liberal during the 1950s and 1960s. He was never a popular figure, but as he grew older he became less a generalisimo and more a statesman until even the United Nations recognized his dictatorship over Spain. In the late 1960s his health began to decline until hios death 1975. After his death his appointed successor King Juan Carlos soon demonstrated that his philosophy was nothing like that of his predecessor and within a few months Franco's 5 decades long stranglehold painlessly gave way to democracy. I do not agree with his tactics, but different reasons for the break out of Facism.

Italy: After all the problems at the end of WWI, not getting all of what they wanted, and the jobless were unhappy, Mussolini helped form the Facist Party in Italy. At that time, Italy was a He was later appointed prime minister of Italy in 1922 and rapidly assumed dictatorial powers. Following the collapse of parliamentary government, Victor Emmanuel accepted the Fascist regime of Benito Mussolini. During Mussolini's Fascist regime Victor Emmanuel was king in name only. Italy out of the 3 was at least some what representative, but not a true democracy at all.

I think autocratic systems can arise anytime a problem that is unsolveable occurs or the gov't that is in charge is too corrupt to do anything about it.

I kind of rambled on there, but my point is this. The East still has a long way of catching up to the West. For most of written history, the East has been ahead of the West, but for the last 300 years, it has been the other way around. Some people have said that the 21st century could be the century of the asian again, but only time will tell.

One final note, you say "Arabs and Chinesse people dont have democracy because they are ruled by selfish, despotic little ****s who just love it when we say "ah well, its their way" and turn a blind eye." I disagree. If the people all rose up against the leaders, the leaders could not stop them. Yes, it would depend on which side the military was on, but still, people have the power. If my students disliked how they were treated in my class, they could rise up and boot me out. But because they are not mistreated, we have no problems to speak of...

 

[Anubisdk2]

Originally posted by Mîtiu Ioan


Yes - my mistake.
Thanks for correcting me at this point.

Anyway - I have to exprim a little "surprise" here related with Romanian's Communist leaders ... the predecessor of Nicolae Ceausescu, Gheorghe Gh. Dej and his staff was far more brutal and opressive than Ceausescu ...
But still the last one is more "world-wide known" !!!

Regards

I had not read much on the others until recently, and yes you are correct. I stand corrected. I guess the fact that Ceausescu tried to hold onto his power and the blood that was spilled as a result only added to his reputation.

 

[Anubisdk2]

Originally posted by NilesR
Perhaps then we should nominate Karl Marx as worst person ever. It was his philosophy that inspired Lenin, which led to Stalin and Hitler......

Interesting point, but he just hated capitalism. I do not think he believed in Social Darwinism that was alive at the time. But interesting none the less.

 

[Anubisdk2]

Originally posted by akots


Certainly not. It probably goes to Western society in part. I've recently met a French scientist 38 years old with PhD degree who told me that they learned at school that Russia started WWII by capturing Poland!!!??? Can you believe this?

But to understand the things about 1917 revolution and Lenin, you have to go really very deep. Much deeper than in a textbook. I happened to be in high school and university in early 80s in Russia and WAS FORCED to read some Lenin's books and articles to survive. It is pure evil. If there is a Book of Satan, this is it. It's all in there, Hitler, Stalin and all the rest and many-many other weirdest things. Sometimes it is masked, sometimes it is on the surface.

I believe it. Actually, Japanese schools frequently left out how aggressive their armies were and how ruthless they could be during WWII. Schools and school books did not have any information about this. So as they grew older and hear rumblings about it, of course they are going to deny it.

BTW, there are people around the world that still do not believe that the Holocaust was real. It doesnt really surprise me. Ya, the Soviet Union did invade Poland, but not until after Germany did first.

 

[Anubisdk2]

Originally posted by Mîtiu Ioan


I'm not so sure about their "link" - but Kim is also a big "candidate" in my opinion ... recent declasified documents suggest that he is 90% responsible for the Corean War in 1950 ... and for the "cold period" that followed.

Regards

I am not sure if I totally believe that because much of the west was afraid of Communism and the U.S. saw the U.S.S.R. trying to spread its influence all over the world....god what were they thinking when they came up with containment???

 

[{faa}Dario]

first of this i dont be able, to say the most "criminal" governor or the most dictator tiranus,

i can say Rafael Videla from Argentina as the **** dicatator because my family were injured by him, and the military was looking for all the people who didnt think like them(many tortures in my country and my city of course)what should i say....

and the most "criminal or insane" options that also put the start thread, i think that Harry Thruman the USA president in 1945, how the way to kill the people throwing over their heads Atomic Bombs¡¡¡¡¡¡ anyways i see as more dicator behaviour to all of this president of the "Democracy" who injure or hurts civilization in the "name" of peace or whatever...

so, Rafael Videla and Harry Thruman are the worst leaders for me....

 

[Androrc]

Bush. And yes, he is a dictator, because he cheated in the election, just like Saddam used to do always.

 

[privatehudson]

A tenuous link to say the least

 

[Androrc]

Well, Bush did not win democraticly, therefore he is a dictator.

 

[privatehudson]

And he really fits into the same category as Stalin and Hitler doesn't he?

 

[Amenhotep7]

Well, Bush did not win democraticly, therefore he is a dictator.

It was perfectly within his power to call for a recount. Therefore, he was elected within the rules of said democratic process.

 

[Androrc]

Well, people did vote in Iraq too... But for some funny reason Saddam always won

edit: smiley fixed

 

[Amenhotep7]

Saddam held votes just to make him look legitimate. GWB didn't, for it wasn't HE who held the elections.

 

[Androrc]

Surely it wasn't he who held the elections... But that doesn't change the facts he changed the results.

 

[Portuguese]

I wonder if people now would come with a different list.

For example, Libertarians would add FDR as one of the worst of the UU Century, for example