Worst enemy weirdness

[The Rook]

Hi all,

According to the diplomacy screen in my current game, Hannibal's most disliked rival is Kublai Khan (annoyed -7). However, when I traded with Mansa Musa (cautious +1 relative to Hannibal), I lost 4 rep with Hannibal and carried the "You have traded with our worst enemies" deficit. Previous threads indicate that each AI character always has a worst enemy, and the worst enemy calculation is based on diplomatic modifiers. If this is the case, then clearly the calculation can't be founded entirely on the visible attitude modifiers (annoyed -7 vs cautious +1!). Is this perhaps a bug, or could there be more to determining AI's "worst enemy" than simply counting their respective relations scores?

This really has me perplexed, any info would be greatly appreciated.

 

[bmarnz]

You think that's bad.

Once an AI somehow got into a war with some one they were pleased with. He asked me to join the war and I accepted. I then received a diplo hit for declaring war on his friend.

 

[Morgawr]

Do Mansa or Kublai have any vassals?

If Hannibal was Annoyed at Mansa at +1 then I would have an explanation (involving the invisible modifiers) but if he was Cautious then I'm not sure how that could be.

 

[KaytieKat]

Hi

From other posts I have read there is some kind of behind the scenes diplomodifier called "warmongers respect". It's nothing that show up in the plus/minus relations but it makes it so the more warlike leaders will always tend to dislike the non warlike leaders more than non warlike ones even if other modifiers which you CAN see says they shouldnt.

Kaytie

 

[The Rook]

Do Mansa or Kublai have any vassals?
If Hannibal was Annoyed at Mansa at +1 then I would have an explanation (involving the invisible modifiers) but if he was Cautious then I'm not sure how that could be.

+1 cautious. +2 -1 in total, the only negative being "You declared war on our friend". Mansa Musa is Kublai's vassal so he was dragged into a war against the Romans when Kublai made the declaration.

Interestingly one of Hannibal's many negatives against Kublai includes "We are worried about our rivals being vassals to your empire". Mansa Musa Rivals? Not sure how he works that one out.

Hi

From other posts I have read there is some kind of behind the scenes diplomodifier called "warmongers respect". It's nothing that show up in the plus/minus relations but it makes it so the more warlike leaders will always tend to dislike the non warlike leaders more than non warlike ones even if other modifiers which you CAN see says they shouldnt.

Kaytie

Interesting idea, looking at the c4bts reference booklet... it says +2 warmonger respect for Hannibal, but the difference between the visible modifiers is 8! So there must be many modifiers behind the scenes for Kublai to recover such a huge deficit, if that is the issue. Would a vassal get the warmonger bonus anyway when their master initiates the conflict?

 

[The Rook]

My bad. Kublai's rep with Hannibal is -6 (annoyed), not -7, that was just the total of negative modifiers. I'm doubtful that would make a difference though.

 

[Morgawr]

Now it's making sense. Since Mansa is Kublai's vassal, Hannibal's attitude towards them as a team is the average of the two, Cautious & Annoyed, rounded down to Annoyed. Next, to determine who's the worst enemy, Hannibal looks at the modifiers. Although toward Kublai he has -6, due to peaceweight (+3) and warmonger (+2) modifiers, he has +5. So -6 + 5 = -1. With Mansa, however, he has -3 peaceweight, = +1-3= -2.

-2 < -1 so his worst enemy is Mansa.

Check out the peaceweight chart in this post on details on this stuff.

p.s. There's a random element in these modifiers too but we wouldn't know the exact # unless you're using a special mod

 

[The Rook]

Now it's making sense. Since Mansa is Kublai's vassal, Hannibal's attitude towards them as a team is the average of the two, Cautious & Annoyed, rounded down to Annoyed. Next, to determine who's the worst enemy, Hannibal looks at the modifiers. Although toward Kublai he has -6, due to peaceweight (+3) and warmonger (+2) modifiers, he has +5. So -6 + 5 = -1. With Mansa, however, he has -3 peaceweight, = +1-3= -2.

-2 < -1 so his worst enemy is Mansa.

Check out the peaceweight chart in this post on details on this stuff.

p.s. There's a random element in these modifiers too but we wouldn't know the exact # unless you're using a special mod

Many thanks, I had no idea that the reps of the master and vassals were averaged. I'm a lot happier now I know it isn't some strange bug.

 

[m4gill4]

Also, if you're using the latest 3.13 unofficial patch, they changed it so that civs cannot be "worst enemies" of their vassals or vice versa.

 

[Morgawr]

Actually, I think Bhruic changed it so that the vassal won't ever be the master's worst enemy, but the opposite can still be true - the master can be the vassal's worst enemy. ('bitter' vassal)