Worst Unique Unit

[DrPepper836]

I voted for jaguar, but if I had to think about it, then I'd probably put holkan at the top now. It is resourceless, sure, but the spear can take either iron or copper. What are the odds of one not having both? Furthermore, why in the world would an anti mounted unit need a defense against first strikes, as the only one that has any is the keshik?

Who said numidian cavalry? I've beaten Rome with them before. They are awesome.

 

[Ai Shizuka]

Ok, you don't like Jags and Holkans. But how could you possibly rate them worse than panzer or ballista elephant?

These 2 are actually good because the base unit is very strong by itself. But what do they give above the standard unit? 90% of the times, absolutely nothing.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I used to vote BE, but after experiencing more modern warfare now I'm torn between BE and panzer. The panzer is garbage against the computer. The computer does not spam tanks, and the panzer offers absolutely nothing extra against anything else. To add insult to injury, it's the latest UU in the game, so not only is it marginal-to-useless, you rarely even use it.

The BE might let you kill out some knights or HAs in an attack stack or something, so I guess the panzer is worse.

 

[Bleys]

Those of you looking at the number of votes, remember the bulk of those votes were cast over a year ago. We should put up a brand new one now, and see how the numbers compare. I doubt I would change my vote (Ballista Ele) but some might.

 

[The Rook]

I voted for jaguar, but if I had to think about it, then I'd probably put holkan at the top now. It is resourceless, sure, but the spear can take either iron or copper. What are the odds of one not having both?

Odds of not having copper or iron in the capital are rather high. But it isn't just a question of whether you have the resources, but when you have them. Axes/Spears not only need copper, but they need roads to connect the copper, and most probably settlers to claim the copper. So realistically Holkans will be available some time sooner. Why build Holkans? They make excellent anti-barb units, and barbs can be a problem very early on Immortal/Deity. Also, if an AI starts very near to you, and has the cheek to settle their empire on top of yours, Holkans can be used to steal workers/settlers, pillage land, and generally scupper the target's development. This harassment strategy tends to be less viable with units that require resources, as by the time they are ready, the target's settlers have settled.

Furthermore, why in the world would an anti mounted unit need a defense against first strikes, as the only one that has any is the keshik?

Archers have first strikes, and these are the most common Holkan fodder in the scenarios I mentioned.

There are better UU's than the Holkan, but not many imho. I'd probably rate it the best of the underrated UUs.

 

[UncleJJ]

I voted Ballista Elephant originally and would again, it is a terrible UU. But as TMIT says the Panzer is also useless in practice as the AI doesn't really use tanks and tanks are easy to kill anyway and by a variety of methods.

 

[Windsor]

Ok, you don't like Jags and Holkans. But how could you possibly rate them worse than panzer or ballista elephant?

Warfare in Civ is mainly about capturing cities. Swordsman are good at this, in fact it's the only purpose for them. In this, very critical, aspect jaguars is worse than the units they replace. A player will never think "I wish my panzers were regular tanks", but it happens A LOT with jaguars.

I do agree that woodsmanIII is a strong promotion, but the cost is simply to high. It gets harder to capture cities and you probably end up with less of those lovely CRIII rifles.

 

[Ghpstage]

Warfare in Civ is mainly about capturing cities. Swordsman are good at this, in fact it's the only purpose for them. In this, very critical, aspect jaguars is worse than the units they replace. A player will never think "I wish my panzers were regular tanks", but it happens A LOT with jaguars.

I do agree that woodsmanIII is a strong promotion, but the cost is simply to high. It gets harder to capture cities and you probably end up with less of those lovely CRIII rifles.

I rarely find that I will be using swords to attack without catapults, except with the uniques, Praets, Jags or Gallics. So the lower strength isn't a big issue.
Jags can be built earlier, faster and can have the movement boost of Woodsman 2 from just the barracks, this speed allows you to hit enemy cities before they have enough defenders to cope.
Woodsman 3 + Medic 1 Jags so early (10XP) means your stack can start moving on to the next city sooner, meaning less defenders to face throughout a war. Woodman 2 also makes Jags great as stack defenders while 3 can help intercept defenders between cities. Not many units can reliably perform so many roles without huge amounts of XP.

Also Monty is AGG so his Jags do get the C1 promo, reducing the effect of the strength reduction by half.

 

[MadmanAtW]

and tanks are easy to kill anyway and by a variety of methods.

Like attacking them with spearmen!


The BE always sounded to me like a cool unit- causing it to target the defender it will be most rather than least likely to kill sounds pretty nice to me. But I've never used it in practice, so I will freely admit that I have no real idea. I guess what I'm not taking into account there is that for every game where I don't have copper or iron or oil there are 5 where I don't have ivory...

 

[madscientist]

In theory the Panzer is an awesome unit that domiates it's era and ever has an edge over Modern armor. In BTS the gunships are much later and anti-tanks are soso. On paper sounds just great.

The problem is what everyone else says, the AI stinks at tank wafare! A useless UU.

The balista elephant is dependant on a rare resource however when you have it, it's a very effective defensive unit to have in a city when the enemy stacks including mounted units approaches!

 

[Gliese 581]

I agree with previous posters, it stands between BEs and Panzers. I used to dislike the Jaguar alot now I think it's so-so, sometimes they're great to have sometimes you'd rather have a swordsman, not a great endorsement for an UU. On deity though I rarely fight so early so they make good explorers and healers with woodsman and are a bit cheaper in cost.
Holkans are awesome, it's like starting with Archery.

 

[IagoAlberto]

I have to agree about the Holkans, I never used to give them any respect, then I rushed Alex with them, its amazing how fast you can get a rush out with the Maya. They're obviously great for defending a REX as well.

 

[Molybdeus]

45 for Jags

...

They aren't as good against cities as normal swords and I don't think the speed makes up for that much unless a city is relativley new and has a single lone archer defending, but they do have a lot of use in raiding anything the that isn't heavily defended.

A big problem with Jaguars is the fact that you have to use them in a completely different manner than normal swordsmen. Most people trying to pull off an early rush would rather go for chariots or axes rather than swordsmen since you can get them out quicker. I can't speak for everyone, but I use my swordsmen in the early catapult era. At that point Jaguars are a liability rather than an asset.

I personally hate both Jaguars and Dog Soldiers, but I know that a large part of it is due to the fact that they don't conform to my preferred play style.

I am heavily biased in favor of Ballista Elephants, since I have gotten them in roughly nine out of a dozen games as the Khmer and loved them when I've gotten them. I suspect the map generator map "cheat" a bit to give the Khmer access to ivory, but I'm not certain.

 

[Deep_Blue]

I also suspect the map generator map "cheat" a bit to give the Khmer access to ivory, but I'm not certain.

I also suspect that map generation code distributes start positions and resources according to civilizations, for example I noticed that aggressive AIs have access to copper or Iron so often (Ghengis always gets iron near the capital in my games!).

Some leaders for some reson seams to always get access to a certain resource, some start near jungles so often and other leaders start near deserts. That is not with certain probability but with a high one. However I am not sure about this we need a comformation from someone who has knowledge about the game code.

 

[Deep_Blue]

I changed my mind about Holkans, I was playing with Darius last night and planned Immortal rush I checked neighboring civs and located those how don't have copper. Destroyed the Spanish and captured there 3 cities, then I headed to the Mayans because they were very close to my capital. I forgot that they start with resourceless spear so after declarding war and moving to their first city I found a little Holkan sitting in there, I took the risk and though that 1 holkan can be handled with my 8 Immortals .............. the result .. he ate them on breakfast.. .... that Holkan said to me you deserve this because you underestimated me in the forums 1 holkan in each Mayans city ruined my game .. those little immortals eaters deserve respect

 

[EvilZarathustra]

Picked Fast Worker. 'Cause the name is uncreative.

 

[Deep_Blue]

Picked Fast Worker. 'Cause the name is uncreative.

Is "Hard worker" creative?

 

[Fluxx]

Like attacking them with spearmen!

Nice emote . People however keep getting the spearman vs tank issue. If you have ever played Civ 1, you would see diplomats killing battleships!!! 0 vs 40 or so. THAT was ridicilous

 

[Iranon]

The sad thing about Ballista Elephants: if you actually have Ivory early on, Hwachas are a far more useful UU. High-powered cleanup troops that trump archers and mounted units, siege that trumps melee counterattacks are unmatched even by Praetorians + regular catapults.

 

[PreLynMax]

Very sorry, my mistake. I assumed that Camel Archers replaced Horse Archers, having never played Arabia. My point still stands though- yes, Horses and Iron are common enough that if you don't have them by KNIGHTS you should just resign. Again, my mistake, sorry.

Trust me... it's VERY useful when you have no horses. I know. I built a ton of them without horses AND dominated with them. And for those 10% of my games where I get NO horses, iron, or copper... this UU becomes VERY DAMNED USEFUL.

Correction, TMIT... the Navy SEAL is the latest UU in the game.