Worst Wonder

[Zare]

I voted for the Eiffel Tower.

There's an smallest benefit from it, and AI benefits zero from it. Let them cope with the stupid tower

Others discussed;

- Great Library; can be essential, yet can be negative. If you're playing with an single city and 6 other civs, you will benefit from their knowledge. On the other hand, there's another AI issue...the AI knows when you get certain advancement, regardless if they even made contact with you. If you haven't discovered certain advancement that grants a wonder, AI has, AI won't build the wonder for a number of turns. When you discover it, they'll start building. So, if one AI civilization has Astronomy, second one discoveres Astronomy, you get it from the GL, you're in the middle of KRC building, they start building the Observatory. Pretty horsehockey situation.

Oracle - possibly needed when you're playing on the higher levels with increased unhappyness. Makes extra happy people until you're ready for Colloseums, without it you can be forced to remove workers to avoid disorder.

Lighthouse - on the large, archipelago based maps with small land mass, essential. Easy colonization of new islands with triremes, good for early trade, and if AI gets it, they'll start spamming the sea with their boats, they'll find your little island and harass you in the B.C. era (i'm playing MPG so they're not very friendly).

Manhattan Project - on smaller maps, if you have enough capacity to build 20 nukes in 7-8 turns, great for conquest. If the AI hasn't discovered rocketry yet, you can just nuk'em all and take down their cities. Complete ownage in one turn.

Darwin's Voyage - extra advancement, maybe a waste of resources if you're already ahead of them, but like i said, if they build it, they'll narrow the gap.

Statue Of Liberty - for me, this is a great wonder. I'm playing Democracy as soon as i get it. This is a scenario that i witnessed too many times...i'm at stable peace treaty with AI civ. He builds a city close to mine, overlapping squares. Then, he forces me to remove all my border guards, fortified units, because we now "share" the teritorry. Then, he uses the 2 moving points unit, first he places him on my square, that square gets out of my control, he puts his workers on it, and removes the unit. Steals my square. If i have the statue, i hit the revolution, smash his city, and it's only one turn of anarchy...nothing to worry about.

 

[small lawe]

Light house never needed to use it since the other islands are close enough to mine even. Even though it does mean being careful with the horrible little ships.

 

[Mr_Fusty]

That Tower does seem to be usless...but then again, I've never had a peaceful game, even if I try. I allways get 'the x and the y sign a pact to contain z's agression' problem, even if I have never heard of them or have been really nice and peacful, respecting their territory, trading stuff and never building up an offensive capability - only defensive.

 

[Anithraldur]

I'd vote Manhattan. I've never had a nuclear war happen (I don't play at too hard a level though), but I can guess it'd be hell. My last game none of the AIs even attempted to build it, until the Carthaginians began to get their butts kicked by the Zulus. That was kind of a surprise.

 

[altctrl]

copernicus' observatory. It doesn't double the science output of that one city all the time and sometimes I think it isn't worth bothering building it when I can just take resources away to allow for a scientist who has the same effect.

 

[SCG]

for me, it was a decision between three - Great Library, Manhattan Project and Eiffel Tower.

To me, Great Library is probably the wonder that most penalizes me if i build it, but that is only because I've learned how the tech tree works. Manhattan Project is also a negative wonder, in that once you build it, everyone with the appropriate technology level has nukes, and it creates a significant drain on a variety of resources as a result. That said, both do have purposes in the game - the GL as a crutch, and MP as required that someone build it if you desire nuclear interaction (either with spies or with actual nuclear missiles).

That leaves the Eiffel Tower, which, has as negligable effect as is possible for a wonder. Even with the wonder, the AI will sneak attack you regularly. If you are playing a democracy, you often already have a spotless reputation, and if you are playing with a more war-like government, you often have little need for reputation by the time it is available.


And as a side note to those who complain about wonders expiring too quickly - you can force the AI to slow their research by turning off yours. If you wish to fight wars using the older technologies, you can really extend the window of effectiveness of those older wonders.

 

[Terrapin]

I think I am on this thread many moons ago arguing that the Great Library is actually good. After really learning to play, it is actually the worst WoW imaginable. Giving me crappy techs I did not bother to research in the first place and making me pay more to research the techs I actually want is worse, IMO, than giving the hapless little AI darlings nuclear missiles! This is because of the time periods when these things come into play. The GL is an AI favorite, so you usually have to work fast to get it, then are stuck with it for a long, long time. By the time Manhattan is on the menu I am usually way past the AIs in tech and pulling away rapidly. Typically, I can take my time with Manhattan and then have SDI in all my cities before I am in real danger of being nuked.

SCG, I understand what you mean about slowing yours, but not what I want to do that?

 

[civiijkw]

I initially thought that the Great Library was a godsend in keeping up with AI technologies.

Then I tried using it to get the military research while I did the non-military research. That was when I found out that it only gives a technology as it is received by an AI, and if the technology is already known to multiple AI at the time the library is built then you will not receive it until another AI gets it (if this is a bug then I feel a bit swindled).

Since then I've improved my research planning and found that my tech tree ends up going up so quickly in comparison to the AI that the Library never gives me anything. I usually end up building it only after it is already obsolete, and only for the points.

I usually only get around to building the Eiffel Tower when I am trying to round out my collection of 28 wonders (in my current game it has improved my reputation from double digit atrocious to only questionable, but I really wasn't that concerned about my reputation while destroying 20 of the 21 civilizations destroyed in the game). The Manhattan Project is also only built to round out my collection.

In some games I need and build the Great Wall early while in others it is one of the final wonders built (while obsolete). The same is true of the Lighthouse and the Oracle (I once delayed the Oracle's obsolescence until almost the time I started building the starship).

A friend of mine that caused me to look into the game would talk about how absolutely worthless the Cure for Cancer was. When I told him how valuable it could be for new cities' growth on the Deity level he finally changed his mind.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I've never thought too much about what wonder is worst. My decision must always be "is the Wonder worth the cost?" In some circumstances the lighthouse is useful, but, usually, getting it will cost another wonder, which is too high a cost. Oracle expires way too early to be worth 300s, but at a lower cost it might be useful to establish an early republic.

Asside from increasing research costs, the Great Library has another disadvantage: it eliminates the common knowledge techs from the research list. If you have a few old techs in the research list and any techs you want to research are hidden, it is very nice to be able to choose a tech that is known by several AIs and trade for that tech. You can then start researching a desired tech next turn. With the Great Library, you can't use this strategy because you will already have the old techs. One civ might have the tech you decide to research, but if you are not on good terms with that civ, you will be stuck researching it yourself.
Marco Polo can usually get you any tech you want that others know, and it has other advantages (not to mention it is cheaper).

Manhattan Project will cost a lot of money to put up SDI once another civ has both Rocketry and Nuke Fission (you have to have both to build nukes, even if someone else has built the project). On the other hand, it is a late wonder and therefore it can be prepared for.

I suppose Great Library it is.

 

[Boomsie]

Um... I hate the Colossus...

 

[WildPony]

oops, see below

 

[WildPony]

I believe the tower is the very worst and 2 others are very bad:

Oracle: 1) Theology comes around awefully fast, 2) who wants to build a bunch of temples anyway to get the wonder to do anything?

Adam Smiths: I would rarely have enough "one gold per turn buildings" to justify the 400 shields for this big loser

My 2 cents on others mentioned:

Great Library: Hmm, i absolutely agree that Marcos is far better, putting you in near total control to get what you want and to manipulate the ai to get for you more of what you want. But say you don't get marcos... is GL really competing with the tower for the big prize? For every tech you get that u didn't want, how many do you get that are welcome? When the ai shuts down and doesn't want to give you anything, what wonder is there to keep you in the free tech business? GL is very useful when everybody hates you and you need a big hug

Lighthouse: True vs. ai it's not very strong or necessary and Magnetism comes quickly with 7 civs in the game. One real benefit however, as Zare mentioned above is the ability to reach all other civs and the heightened ability to land your demanded trades with the shortest possible route, not being a timid little shore hugger. Now the real Lighthouse benefit... Versus Humans, this wonder is so powerful that it is commonly banned. Dominate the sea, get all the steals you want while keeping your enemy from getting any. Land all the Foreign trades you want while keeping the enemy from landing any. Send all the Vet Crusaders (or elephants or horses... or explorers) you want to his shores while keeping him from sending any to you... keeping him within a "defend every city" framework while you expand unprotected like a wild man.

 

[BaconLad]

Tough choice...

The Great Library can be harmful to your strategie as more oftan than not it gives you techs that your not currently interested in obtaining, making your initial target techs harder to acquire as the tech cost increases slowing your development in the process.

On the other hand, The Eifel Tower is not worth the shield cost to build. It increases your reputation over time, but is that worth the cost??? In my opinion, it is not.

 

[BaconLad]

Um... I hate the Colossus...

WHAT!!!

The Colossus is an essential build for any SSC. The trade bonus can have an enormus effect on tech adavnce. Build Colossus early, get a head start in the tech race, and dominate!

 

[BaconLad]

Lighthouse: True vs. ai it's not very strong or necessary and Magnetism comes quickly with 7 civs in the game. One real benefit however, as Zare mentioned above is the ability to reach all other civs and the heightened ability to land your demanded trades with the shortest possible route, not being a timid little shore hugger. Now the real Lighthouse benefit... Versus Humans, this wonder is so powerful that it is commonly banned. Dominate the sea, get all the steals you want while keeping your enemy from getting any. Land all the Foreign trades you want while keeping the enemy from landing any. Send all the Vet Crusaders (or elephants or horses... or explorers) you want to his shores while keeping him from sending any to you... keeping him within a "defend every city" framework while you expand unprotected like a wild man.

Nicely delivered!

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Great Library: Hmm, i absolutely agree that Marcos is far better, putting you in near total control to get what you want and to manipulate the ai to get for you more of what you want. But say you don't get marcos... is GL really competing with the tower for the big prize? For every tech you get that u didn't want, how many do you get that are welcome? When the ai shuts down and doesn't want to give you anything, what wonder is there to keep you in the free tech business? GL is very useful when everybody hates you and you need a big hug

If you don't get Marco-Polo, the best course of action depends on circumstances. If you are in the middle of the map and likely have civs nearby in many directions, sending out diplomats and triremes can be the best way around losing the embassy (not to mention you might place a nice silk or dye caravan on the trireme as well for a nice delivery). The lighthouse might in this case be a nice wonder to have. You are essentially looking for another way to make contact with the foreign civs.

If, however, you are located in the far north or south or have some other reason to suspect that you are not near to many civs, the great library does become more appealing as a stopgap measure. There are other measures that can be used, however. The Colosus might be one, if there is a suitable location, in order to engage in domestic trade and perhaps establish an SSC. Lighthouse could be another option, if you wanted to sail far away to find people, though it is less appealing than in the former case. Hanging gardens might be a choice, providing for quicker expansion with less happiness worries (and therefore increasing city science production).

In any case, MPE is usually essential for a BC building of Mike's chapel.

Lighthouse: True vs. ai it's not very strong or necessary and Magnetism comes quickly with 7 civs in the game. One real benefit however, as Zare mentioned above is the ability to reach all other civs and the heightened ability to land your demanded trades with the shortest possible route, not being a timid little shore hugger. Now the real Lighthouse benefit... Versus Humans, this wonder is so powerful that it is commonly banned. Dominate the sea, get all the steals you want while keeping your enemy from getting any. Land all the Foreign trades you want while keeping the enemy from landing any. Send all the Vet Crusaders (or elephants or horses... or explorers) you want to his shores while keeping him from sending any to you... keeping him within a "defend every city" framework while you expand unprotected like a wild man.

This brings up an interesting point about the benefits of wonders in certain circumstances. It is not fighting humans, exactly, that gives the lighthouse the power you describe, but the circumstances caused by the fight. You don't usually play multiplayer on a large map with seven people; it would take so long as to no longer be interesting. You play on smaller maps with few people, frequently 2. Lighthouse gives a great advantage in these circumstances, because relative power and war is very important. If someone were to pursue a peaceful development strategy to crush you in the late game, you could destroy him in the meantime with a powerful army, not to mention you are close enough to do it. The lighthouse gives you great power to restrict his movement and to assault at any place you chose on the coast. These circumstances would make both Marco Polo and the Great Library practically and entirely worthless respectively.

Now suppose that there are seven players on a large map. This makes war very unattractive, because the player(s) that don't engage in it in the early game will probably be much more powerful later on. Lighthouse certainly doesn't make the cost of capturing cities through conquest less than that of building them from scratch, and doesn't much reduce the difficulty of transporting an army part of the way across the world. The total military expenditures are far too great to make conquest worthwhile. You might take out one or even two opponents but you will probably have had to use as many resources as they used to defend themselves, diminishing your own output and (peaceful) expansion possibilities in the meantime. Not to mention that the others will see you as a threat and possibly ally against you.

On the other hand, MPE can become very powerful, and Great Library may cease to be a lousy wonder. MPE can get foundational techs that are needed for good wonders (I would assume that humans wouldn't be foolish enough to give important wonder techs) and allow increased speed through the tech tree, unless everyone recognises the danger and refuses to deal with the owner of MPE. Great Library now benefits from the research paths of humans, not computers, substancially reducing possible research drags; it may only suffice to be prepared to exploit new techs.

 

[WildPony]

This brings up an interesting point about the benefits of wonders in certain circumstances. It is not fighting humans, exactly, that gives the lighthouse the power you describe, but the circumstances caused by the fight. You don't usually play multiplayer on a large map with seven people; it would take so long as to no longer be interesting. You play on smaller maps with few people, frequently 2. Lighthouse gives a great advantage in these circumstances, because relative power and war is very important. If someone were to pursue a peaceful development strategy to crush you in the late game, you could destroy him in the meantime with a powerful army, not to mention you are close enough to do it. The lighthouse gives you great power to restrict his movement and to assault at any place you chose on the coast. These circumstances would make both Marco Polo and the Great Library practically and entirely worthless respectively.

Now suppose that there are seven players on a large map. This makes war very unattractive, because the player(s) that don't engage in it in the early game will probably be much more powerful later on. Lighthouse certainly doesn't make the cost of capturing cities through conquest less than that of building them from scratch, and doesn't much reduce the difficulty of transporting an army part of the way across the world. The total military expenditures are far too great to make conquest worthwhile. You might take out one or even two opponents but you will probably have had to use as many resources as they used to defend themselves, diminishing your own output and (peaceful) expansion possibilities in the meantime. Not to mention that the others will see you as a threat and possibly ally against you.

Good post Professor Garfield.

Yes i made a very general statement of how powerful Lighthouse "can" be. Some games it would be my top priority to build, other games it would never even be a consideration. For the most part, i was referring to small or medium map duels (2 humans)... and for the most part games where you turn out to be on a separate continent from your enemy (though "Lamp" can also be very strong in many same-land situations... ie: all entrances to the enemy civ are impeded by hill/forts with strong defenders making it so there is no way to reach them but by sea.

For me, where lighthouse is concerned, the Human element is absolutely Paramount! A strong human player in posession of this treasure knows how to make the very best of it. As i mentioned before, "Dominate the sea, get all the steals you want while keeping your enemy from getting any. Land all the Foreign trades you want while keeping the enemy from landing any. Send all the Vet Crusaders (or elephants or horses... or explorers) you want to his shores while keeping him from sending any to you... keeping him within a "defend every city" framework while you expand unprotected like a wild man."

Versus a strong human, Lighthouse can often be the key to making this happen. Vs the ai, this type of domination can easily be accomplished without lighthouse.

I've yet to see any ai civ EVER posess such a mastery of the game as to make me feel in any way threatened by them posessing lighthouse. Whenever an ai civ builds it, i can't help but chuckle inside and think "what a shameful waste ". So whereas vs. a strong human player, Lighthouse can indeed be a matter of life or death... versus the ai, you will never lose a game because they built it. They simply don't know how to utilize it effectively. But a strong human player does!

Now... regarding games with 3 or more human players... it is agreed that it becomes less important in most instances because as you said, a lot of times it makes much more sense to live a peaceful existence. On the other hand, even in peace, Lighthouse generally allows it's owner to have a far more effective trade game and as an extension of this, it would allow you the freedom (depending on all circumstances) to avoid navigation longer (along with invention) and keep those double value trades rolling in. As well, i would dare say that wise opponents won't really want to go to war with a player who has Lighthouse and knows how to use it... thus instead of making it more likely that folks will want to fight you, i would say Lighthouse in most instances would make it decidedly less likely.

Regarding large map games, if civs are too far away (though they may not necessarily be), Lighthouse loses a lot of it's luster because Magnetism in such games comes around too quickly, before lighthouse has a chance to exert it's power. In such a game I'd prefer a great civ building wonder instead [i love HG, Pyramids is great in a single production game, Mikes is always nice, or all 3 ]

In any case i would never say Lighthouse is the worst wonder and in many situations in human duelles, i feel it is the very best

 

[Ace]

The importance of the Lighthouse depends entirely on the individual game. Are ocean lines of communication critical to the map or can you ignore the sea and spread out overland, or, most common, are the continents, islands close enough together to not require the Lighthouse. The map decides in each game.

The GL, on the other hand is a different story. It appears that newer players build it because of the "promise" of free techs, while more experienced players look on the GL as a waste because they are almost always in the tech lead and only get a very few advances via the GL. IMHO, the GL's main function is as a distraction to the AIs. It seems to be popular with it and I much prefer it to build the GL than a wonder that I want/need.

 

[WildPony]

The importance of the Lighthouse depends entirely on the individual game. Are ocean lines of communication critical to the map or can you ignore the sea and spread out overland, or, most common, are the continents, islands close enough together to not require the Lighthouse. The map decides in each game.

The GL, on the other hand is a different story. It appears that newer players build it because of the "promise" of free techs, while more experienced players look on the GL as a waste because they are almost always in the tech lead and only get a very few advances via the GL. IMHO, the GL's main function is as a distraction to the AIs. It seems to be popular with it and I much prefer it to build the GL than a wonder that I want/need.

An interesting perspective Ace.

Re the lighthouse, it is agreed that every situation is different and the Lighthouse is more dominant or less dominant depending on several factors. Speaking now of a game vs. a strong human opponent, not the ai, if my continent in places is 3 steps from that of my enemy's, and my opponent had lighthouse, i would be exceedingly anxious to build two intercontinental coastal cities so i could make a safe 3 step journey across. In such a situation the lightouse would be a lot less able to dominate the game... In a large mass same-land game, it's unlikely that every land entrance would be locked up and so it would be a lot less valuable in that situation as well. Even in these situations however, versus a strong human player, the opportunities to reach more cities for steals, trades and attacks will be greater to he who posesses the Lamp.

Re the GL, I'll reiterate by saying that i would almost never build it, however if i didn't have Marcos... and embassies were going to be overwhelmingly slow to establish, in that period of the game where i first reach Republic and science is then zeroed so i can rush settlers and expand faster... then (if i can't trade towards it or steal it), i turn up sci for a short while to get Trade, then turn it down to zero again so i can rush more caravans (which in turn will ultimately bring more science than any science rate could)... it could be that with all of those turns bringing in gold instead of techs which i knew i could get from the ai, there are 10 or 15 GL techs i can pick up free before i race ahead of the ai's with Super Trade. Techs like Map making, Pottery, Masonry, Ceremonial, Mysticism, Horseback, Warrior Code, the wheel, iron working, math, astronomy, polytheism, maybe seafaring... perhaps a bit later even Construction, engineering, feudalism, chivalry, medicine, Invention, Navigation. If i had Marcos or Embassies (which is fantastically of my preference) GL would be very unhelpful. But without these, i believe GL has to be at least a couple notches above the tower as the worst wonder in the game, giving me 10-15 free techs that i would eventually have needed anyway, techs which my Super Trade won't have to be wasted on.

To be certain, for the "experienced" player that believes it best to keep the science rate at 60% from start to finish, never easing up on research to enable rushing a lot more settlers and caravans with the extra gold coming in... nor plotting to cost effectively trade for or steal techs he has fallen behind on... this idea would hold little or no value.

 

[Ace]

Re: the Lighthouse...vs a strong human player: any ships you leave unprotected, at sea, are magnets for his navy. And stealing techs can be hazardous if the human player has a dip in said city, you use up your dip to steal the tech and the dip in the city buys your ship. Or a "bigger" ship pops out and sinks you. In addition, Magnatism comes along all too quickly to snuff out the Lamp.

Re: GL...Its a coin flip if the tower or the Gl is worse. I don't like either one. If your trading to provide coins and beakers, your free to juggle your science and tax rates to squeeze the most out of them each turn. And since MP is the highest priority early wonder, right up there with the Colosseus, you should be able to trade with all for everything they have and the GL is totally not helpful. In addition, the GL tends to give you advances that you do not want that early in the game. Before you get Trade, you don't want extra advances slowing down your research (in an early Republic, you want a straight shot to Republic, than to trade), a few off path advances from the GL can cost you many additional turns to reach your goal. All those advances you mention getting from the GL are "nice to have", but not before getting Trade.

One good thought for the Lighthouse, It can be beneficial to physically establish embassies with the AIs asap, rather than use MP and eventually lose out when MP expires. On the other hand, by the time MP expires, one should have the game well in hand and be able to establish new embassies if needed.

As for stealing techs, go for it. I like to keep a dip or two in reserve for those occasions, but if your using MP properly, you should have all the discovered techs. And in a game where your constantly expanding, ie., building new cities, and capturing/bribing enemy cities, this is a foregone conclusion.