Worst Wonder

Vote whichever you think worst. You don't ever want to build it, hate it, etc

  • Great Library

    Votes: 19 5.3%
  • Oracle

    Votes: 72 20.2%
  • Lighthouse

    Votes: 61 17.1%
  • Eiffel Tower

    Votes: 100 28.1%
  • Manhattan Project

    Votes: 81 22.8%
  • Other (specify)

    Votes: 23 6.5%

  • Total voters
    356
Re: the Lighthouse...vs a strong human player: any ships you leave unprotected, at sea, are magnets for his navy. And stealing techs can be hazardous if the human player has a dip in said city, you use up your dip to steal the tech and the dip in the city buys your ship. Or a "bigger" ship pops out and sinks you. In addition, Magnatism comes along all too quickly to snuff out the Lamp.

One good thought for the Lighthouse, It can be beneficial to physically establish embassies with the AIs asap, rather than use MP and eventually lose out when MP expires. On the other hand, by the time MP expires, one should have the game well in hand and be able to establish new embassies if needed.

As for stealing techs, go for it. I like to keep a dip or two in reserve for those occasions, but if your using MP properly, you should have all the discovered techs. And in a game where your constantly expanding, ie., building new cities, and capturing/bribing enemy cities, this is a foregone conclusion.

Lighthouse for me is about totally dominating the sea primarily before Navigation and vs. a human enemy, not ai's and gaining a game winning advantage during that time... an advantage thru leveraging steals and super trade and forcing the enemy to defend every city that puts you in the drivers seat to get all or most other wonders you want including Magellans. Upon Navigation, the guy without the Lamp can then kill your vet triremes or vet caravels with non vet Caravels... u can still dominate, but not as completely as with vet triremes vs. non vet triremes. So the domination of which i speak all happens pre-navi while there are no bigger ships to sink yours... and let a man try sinking vet triremes with non vets. It's just plain ugly. As a rule, if i really want to sink a vet trireme (which i almost never want to do since it is so cost prohibitive) i have 3-4 non vets lined up in case the first 2-3 fail... which often they will.

The next level of domination Lighthouse can bring comes if you can reach Steam Engine before somebody else reaches Magnetism, but that won't happen very often vs. a strong human opponent.

Bribes i am not thinking about since most human games i have ever played have been 'no bribe", but in that case, yes, u want to keep your vet triremes "with occupant(s)" and your vet Iron Clads doubled up :goodjob:.

Good point about using Lighthouse to help set up embassies to replace Marco's, but if it's 7 ai civ's, 4 caravans is cheaper than 7 dips, not to mention how much quicker and simpler it is. The fewer the number of enemies civs, the more sense physical embassies make over Marco's.
 
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Good point about using Lighthouse to help set up embassies to replace Marco's, but if it's 7 ai civ's, 4 caravans is cheaper than 7 dips, not to mention how much quicker and simpler it is. The fewer the number of enemies civs, the more sense physical embassies make over Marco's.

In a standard setup there can only be up to 6 ai civs, but that doesn't really change the idea given.
 
Originally posted by Wildpony: "Good point about using Lighthouse to help set up embassies to replace Marco's, but if it's 7 ai civ's, 4 caravans is cheaper than 7 dips, not to mention how much quicker and simpler it is. The fewer the number of enemies civs, the more sense physical embassies make over Marco's."

Actually, MP costs 200s and expires with communism. 4 vans costs 200s, and 6 dips costs 180s. I don't understand your inclusion of vans here as they do not relate to the "political" aspect, ie., embassies. (And in an early republic, dips are available much earlier than MP and vans.) 6 dips are cheaper than MP, but the time to get them to their target civs sort of offsets this. My original point was not that "dips are better", only that an embassy established by a dip lasts the whole game, while MP expires with communism.

Re: dominating the seas with triremes before navigation...: Seems like an overinvestment of resources in triremes. Most of these shields would be better spent on more settlers to build up your city base. Again, this depends on the map your playing on. If your on a large continent, or have a few large land masses close together (within 3 squares), you don't need many ships, but if your on small islands, than yeah, lighthouse becomes much more important.
 
"I don't understand your inclusion of vans here as they do not relate to the "political" aspect, ie., embassies"

My inclusion of vans here has nothing to do with the political aspect, merely that four of them represent the simple, quick and cost effective tool for building Marco's. Or if you prefer, the wonder can be built from scratch.

"And in an early republic, dips are available much earlier than MP and vans.) 6dips are cheaper than MP, but the time to get them to their target civs sort of offsets this."

On this we agree. It can be quite a time-intensive challenge to establish 6 fast embassies and quite a simple task by contrast to build Marcos. In the small number of games i've played vs. ai with reasoably large maps, getting triremes and dips to 6 nations, some of them quite far off, has been a far more daunting a task than building 4 caras... even though i often explore very agressively with dips. Another set back is when you march 40 turns and the dips get killed or bounced.

Re: expiration of Marcos: By the time communism rolls around, (and espionage next), Transports and spies make 6 free embassies an exceedingly easy objective, so i don't see the expiration as a big deal, rather i see the benefits of the earliest possible contact with all enemy civs to be well worth it.

"Re: dominating the seas with triremes before navigation...: Seems like an overinvestment of resources in triremes. Most of these shields would be better spent on more settlers to build up your city base."

In a game where it seems LH would be highly valuable, i would generally build the wonder and hold back for a while before cranking out a bunch of vet triremes, opting to focus "first" on fast expansion with a zero science rate. Often times, all you need is 2 (or so) Triremes to get moving in opening up your shores, in getting some exploration going to islands and their high likelihood of tribes, and in finding the enemy. Only later would i tend to build more. The whales alone that are found off your shores pay for the two boats, enabling the most excellent possible city placement. As to the other aspect of your comment, are you thinking you'd build Lighthouse then await Navigation before building several boats? In my (vast :clap:) experience vs. high level human opponents, Vet Triremes vs. non vet triremes is where LH dominates the most completely, not Vet Caravels vs. non-vet Caravels. Pre-Navi Lighthouse Domination is where many games are won. In a typical game with Lighthouse, i will steal 10 techs before Navi and some of these leading directly to navi. One game versus a very strong opponent, he had a 6 tech head start to Navigation (mason, math, myst, pottery, seafaring, astronomy) and had two other techs. I saved up 8 dips off his shores and made all 8 steals in the same turn (to add a little drama to the occasion :clap:) then landed 2 demanded trades and built Magellans the following turn. LH was so powerful in my civ that it prevented him from being able to make a single steal or even to establish an embassy. As in this instance among many others, LH in so many situations is fantastically useful in allowing one player to out-maneuver another to key wonders.

Just checking, is your experience primarily vs. the ai? If so, that would help a lot in explaining how our perspectives can be so vastly different on this subject. One couldn't possibly know the phenomenal power of Pre-Navi Lighthouse Domination in the absense of a high level human enemy. :wavey:
 
That explains alot! Yes, I, primarily, play against the AI at Diety level. Granted, playing against a good human player is more challenging. On the other hand, this is going nowhere because playing 2xproduction is a totally different situation and really is not comparable to playing the "regular" game. For the style you play, your method seems to work, so have fun with it. After all, the whole point of the game is to have fun. :)
 
That explains alot! Yes, I, primarily, play against the AI at Diety level. Granted, playing against a good human player is more challenging. On the other hand, this is going nowhere because playing 2xproduction is a totally different situation and really is not comparable to playing the "regular" game. For the style you play, your method seems to work, so have fun with it. After all, the whole point of the game is to have fun. :)

At last a breakthrough :goodjob:. But so u know, Pre Navi LH Domination vs. Humans works every bit as well with single production which i play also. The game i mentioned above with the 8 steals was a normal production game. To tell you the truth, i would say LH is decidedly stronger in single production because it is that much longer before the game sees Navigation.

If u feel double production and single production are not comparable, i would be curious to know how so? I feel the game plays very similarly on the two settings. A couple of notable exceptions i can think of... Pyramids is a strong wonder in single production, but very meager in a double production game. Colossus is stronger in normal than in double because +1 trade per square is proportionately a lot stronger in single than in double. Lastly, I would be quicker in double production to use a luxury rate in despotism instead of warriors. Otherwise, i would basically expand fast, go strait to republic, explore aggressively, get to trade and establish a Super Trade Empire, go for mostly the same wonders as in single, find the enemy, embassy up, steal, trade, kill :clap:.
 
At last a breakthrough :goodjob:. But so u know, Pre Navi LH Domination vs. Humans works every bit as well with single production which i play also. The game i mentioned above with the 8 steals was a normal production game. To tell you the truth, i would say LH is decidedly stronger in single production because it is that much longer before the game sees Navigation.

If u feel double production and single production are not comparable, i would be curious to know how so? I feel the game plays very similarly on the two settings. A couple of notable exceptions i can think of... Pyramids is a strong wonder in single production, but very meager in a double production game. Colossus is stronger in normal than in double because +1 trade per square is proportionately a lot stronger in single than in double. Lastly, I would be quicker in double production to use a luxury rate in despotism instead of warriors. Otherwise, i would basically expand fast, go strait to republic, explore aggressively, get to trade and establish a Super Trade Empire, go for mostly the same wonders as in single, find the enemy, embassy up, steal, trade, kill :clap:.

You have just mentioned several reasons.
 
Best in II are great library and leanardos workshop.I
always build those,MUST! What I hate...i don't hate any wonders,except those space things(not wonders tho) i hate building those.
 
The Oracle expires as soon as it's built, the Eiffel Tower does nothing (in fact, what is it even supposed to do?) and the SETI Programme is useless on bloodlust (which I normally play,) but for me the most pointless wonder is the Colossus. I know I'm sticking my head over the parapet here, but trade just does nothing for me. I really don't enjoy it. I find it boring and an inappropriate activity for the military and political leader of a nation. Since I never build a single freight or do anything to site cities in appropriate places for trade and increase their trade output, a trade related wonder to me is completely superfluous. Hence one vote for other.
 
The Oracle expires as soon as it's built, the Eiffel Tower does nothing (in fact, what is it even supposed to do?) and the SETI Programme is useless on bloodlust (which I normally play,) but for me the most pointless wonder is the Colossus. I know I'm sticking my head over the parapet here, but trade just does nothing for me. I really don't enjoy it. I find it boring and an inappropriate activity for the military and political leader of a nation. Since I never build a single freight or do anything to site cities in appropriate places for trade and increase their trade output, a trade related wonder to me is completely superfluous. Hence one vote for other.

Hi JAC1,

Good points on the first 3 and actually as far as i'm concerned if you have a super trade empire, it's not important that one of your many super trade cities contain Colossus... UNLESS you will be able to take advantage of an island to island self-trade bonanza in a situation where it is difficult to reach foreign cities on separate lands (or if none exist).

But to have only distain for trade in general, i wish to challenge you on that :cool:. If you know how powerful it is and just dislike it, that's ok by me, but if you dislike it because you don't know its power, i would like to help enlighten you a bit. Players that love trade are generally folks who have discovered the full potential of it and revel in seeing many trades of 500 -1000 or more gold PLUS 500-1000 or more science throughout the game (primarily high ocean cities to foreign cities on separate continents).

re: "an inappropriate activity for the military and political leader of a nation"

Consider that wars have to be financed somehow. You can be a little bit wealthy without a flourishing trade game, but perhaps 10x wealthier with it. Later in the game you can rush 1 howitzer per turn without trade or perhaps 10 per turn with it. As well, at some point in the game, trade can assure you a tech every turn and this, too, is something a military leader should be deeply concerned with :thumbsup:.
 
The main beef against the Oracle seems to be it's short duration (which combined with it's marginal utility pushes it into the crap category), so I thought, well, it's duration can be modified in the rules, and instead of expiring at Fundy, it could be extended to expire at......? Theology? Wouldn't change much, really. From the standpoint of the historical evolution of thought, it probably lasts too long anyway. Maybe consider it the persistence of superstition in history and not have it expire. Then it might be decent.
 
The Oracle already expires at Theology, not Fundamentalism.

The wonder is simply too expensive. It is one of three wonders that require additional infrastructure to access its effect (the other two are Newton's, which would get a library anyway as a matter of course, and Hoover Dam), and it is useful only during a time when regular infrastructure is an important undertaking in its own right. The trouble is that you need fairly large cities to get an important benefit out of the oracle, yet its effects are global, which means it works better the more cities you have. About the only practical use I can think up for it is for someone who wants to build a bunch of size 8 cities in Monarchy.

I really don't understand why they made the wonder cost 300 shields. Mike's and Bachs are much better and come later in the game (where cost is not quite such a big factor), yet those only cost 400 shields. Meanwhile, the Pyramids cost 200, don't require extra infrastructure, and last the entire game. The only downsides to that wonder are cities growing too fast in the early game and the fact that there is usually a race for it.

I'm not sure that reducing the cost of the Oracle to 200 shields would make it worth building, but it would most certainly not make it too cheap. It might make it useful to establish an early republic on an (rare) occasion where a city has access to 2 or 3 peat tiles.

I think the Oracle is used in early landing games, where monotheism and theology are avoided due to the fact that they are off path, so it is not completely useless.
 
The main beef against the Oracle seems to be it's short duration (which combined with it's marginal utility pushes it into the crap category), ...

I think my primary beef with Oracle is that you have to build those pesky, what do you call them?... oh yeah, Temples. Even if it lasted all game i'd probably skip it in 29 situations out of 30.
 


Hi JAC1,

Good points on the first 3 and actually as far as i'm concerned if you have a super trade empire, it's not important that one of your many super trade cities contain Colossus... UNLESS you will be able to take advantage of an island to island self-trade bonanza in a situation where it is difficult to reach foreign cities on separate lands (or if none exist).

But to have only distain for trade in general, i wish to challenge you on that :cool:. If you know how powerful it is and just dislike it, that's ok by me, but if you dislike it because you don't know its power, i would like to help enlighten you a bit. Players that love trade are generally folks who have discovered the full potential of it and revel in seeing many trades of 500 -1000 or more gold PLUS 500-1000 or more science throughout the game (primarily high ocean cities to foreign cities on separate continents).

re: "an inappropriate activity for the military and political leader of a nation"

Consider that wars have to be financed somehow. You can be a little bit wealthy without a flourishing trade game, but perhaps 10x wealthier with it. Later in the game you can rush 1 howitzer per turn without trade or perhaps 10 per turn with it. As well, at some point in the game, trade can assure you a tech every turn and this, too, is something a military leader should be deeply concerned with :thumbsup:.

Hi WildPony,

I do know the power of trade; I used to trade extensively, and I'm well aware of the high regard it is held in around these parts. That said, I must confess to never having tried the 'Super Science City' strategy, which I believe is heavily supported by a powerful trade network, and that is something I would like to try. I am very much a believer in the power, or at least the simplicity, of raw population. I do enjoy sending a caravan to a distant land for the huge payoff, but since I normally max out the city limit I find the more 'everyday' routes tedious. I am well aware that I am not harnessing the potential of my cities properly or efficiently, but I am not chasing the gold figure, and my enormous populations normally ensure somehere around a tech a turn in the endgame. That said I have never experienced advancing more than one in a turn, and I think that might be something which would please me. Nevertheless, population is the main contributor to final score, and also my primary informal target. As regards your response to my comment that organising trade routes is inappropriate for a civ's leader, I was being a little contrary there; just plain antagonism to the trade lobby to elicit a response! :mischief: After all, when one gets deeply involved with a particular game I find that most of the 'narrative' of events happens largely inside one's own head; that is, we tend to retroactively invent justifications and pretexts. For example, when an AI nukes a city that was theirs the previous turn, we might justify it by venturing that the city was working on a weapon which would change the balance of power (similar to the Manhattan Project) and that its falling into the wrong hands was unacceptable at any price. Of course, when they nuke their own citizens repeatedly, this pretext is on shakier ground! The point I am trying to make is that we 'imagine' the game such as to suit our habits and preferences, so anything the game lets you do is in a sense 'fair game' for a leader. I think it may boil down to the difference between real-world capitalists and socialists. Whilst I enjoy nurturing huge, happy populations and justify my wars of conquest to myself in terms of the global revolution, others enjoy building a minor nation in terms of population which is nevertheless the dominant world power (analogous to the real-world United States) through sheer force of economy, and these players perhaps justify their wars in terms of a cost-benefit payoff, or 'democracy' (economic oligarchy) promotion. In Civ the latter (the capitalist path) is undoubtedly the finer art, as evidenced by the glorious SSC victories chronicled elsewhere in CFC. I am not disputing that, nor that playing in this manner woukld provide a greater challenge than my normal style. I just simply prefer the nothing-but-a-huge-population approach, and find that rushing more than ten howitzers a turn is well within my means. Also, when playing with the MGE engine I sometimes finds that where you have c. 200 cities a bug kicks in which really messes up trade. (The commodities supplied and demanded change from turn to turn and even between the trade advisor and the city screen. So you produce a caravan thinking there is a big market, then when you cross-reference the cities listed in the supply/demand screen with their city screens the intel. is completely wrong.) I don't know if this bug has been mentioned or patched, but I found it irritating enough to give up trade for one game, and felt so liberated from what I perceive as irritating micro-management that I have never gone back. I now only use freights for wonders and blocking AI railways, peninsulars etc. So just to reiterate, I am well aware of the power of trade, I simply can't be arsed with it, as it is not an aspect of the game I enjoy. Many thanks though for your kind offer to enlighten me to the trade game; it is good to know that people are so eager to share their tips and techniques. :goodjob:

PS. It could be argued that a socialist would enjoy controlling the trade routes of a nation, as it in a sense represents nationalisation of key resources. However, to me the whole thing just smells a little bit bourgeois...
 
Greetings JAC1,

You: That said, I must confess to never having tried the 'Super Science City' strategy, which I believe is heavily supported by a powerful trade network, and that is something I would like to try.

Me: I actually feel that a Super Science City is quite unnecessary unless you are playing a one city challenge. I actually feel a powerful trade network is far more powerful than ... and eliminates the value of... an SSC.

You: I am very much a believer in the power, or at least the simplicity, of raw population.

Me: Yes, i feel you. If i played as you did, with 250 cities, i would enjoy the freedom from trading as well. I've never played for points so this would explain our difference in perspective. I actually find the ai to be such an unworthy adversary that facing them became unexciting to me long ago :blush:.

You: I do enjoy sending a caravan to a distant land for the huge payoff, but since I normally max out the city limit I find the more 'everyday' routes tedious.

Me: hehe, yeah, i'm not about every day routes either, certainly not same land trades and especially when they are domestic. If it's not foreign and separate continent, i am really not interested.

You: I am well aware that I am not harnessing the potential of my cities properly or efficiently, but I am not chasing the gold figure, and my enormous populations normally ensure somehere around a tech a turn in the endgame.

Me: I hear you on this too. I'm just saying that a super trade game will assure you of a tech per turn much, much earlier in the game. It is the driving force to make that happen even if there were only 10 cities.

You: That said I have never experienced advancing more than one in a turn,

You: and I think that might be something which would please me.

Me: Haha, i like that ;).

You: As regards your response to my comment that organising trade routes is inappropriate for a civ's leader, I was being a little contrary there; just plain antagonism to the trade lobby to elicit a response! :mischief:

Me: haha, i see ;). Well you know it's value and choose not to trade just to keep things more simple, not because you believe the absense of trade to be more powerful. By virtue of knowing it's value, you have no argument with said lobby.

You: I just simply prefer the nothing-but-a-huge-population approach, and find that rushing more than ten howitzers a turn is well within my means.

Me: With 250 cities and super trade, you could rush 100 per turn then. But then the micro would be substantially more in depth. :). Against the ai it doesn't matter much. But face a human that's building 100 howitzers to your ten and you've got trouble :lol:.

You: but I found it irritating enough to give up trade for one game, and felt so liberated from what I perceive as irritating micro-management that I have never gone back. So just to reiterate, I am well aware of the power of trade, I simply can't be arsed with it, as it is not an aspect of the game I enjoy.

Me: A very good point, especially when trade is in no way needed to easily anhilate the ai. And in human vs. human games i have always felt that a "no trade" rule would be a viable alternative to speed up the turns.

You: Many thanks though for your kind offer to enlighten me to the trade game; it is good to know that people are so eager to share their tips and techniques. :goodjob:

Me: Yes, i didn't know one way or the other if you had a firm grasp of the trade game. Many players i have come across have not and i have always been pleased to help them out if they had such an interest. Trade and other aspects of the game too including celebrating the population in republic, dominating a game with veteran triremes, fast early expansion with very close city building, opting for a zero science rate in many situations, choosing at certain times not to finish the tech you are researching, awaiting an opportunity to steal or capture it and rush a key tech instead... and using all of the extra gold for rushing more settlers or caravans. That kind of stuff. I was always interested in helping to cultivate the most competitive enemies possible :goodjob:
 
It's leonardos cuz war sux.

Can you clarify?

Leonardo's Workshop is actually one of the best wonders in the game (if not, the best of them all). I mean, obsolete units get upgraded for free? That's awesome. In fact, it has saved my butt in a few games.

I know that the majority of people say Eiffel Tower is the worst. I never really used the Tower, since the ai always builds it (stupid). I sometimes only build it for a better civ score.

Why is Great Library up there? In Deity it is a godly wonder.
 
The trouble with Great Library is that it makes conducting your own research much more difficult and costly.

There are two important issues associated with getting techs: Each tech that you have increases the number of beakers that you need for the next tech, and the number of techs you have determines which techs are hidden when you get the choice for the next research.

Great Library gives you techs at the wrong time. Having these techs will increase the cost of all your research and make it difficult to plan your choices for future tech research. Suppose, for example, that you are trying to research invention, and it is not offered in your choice of techs, so you have to research another tech. Then, as you are researching, you receive 2 techs from the Great Library. Invention will not be offered in the next choice of techs either, and you will have spent a lot of research persuing an important tech and not acheiving it.

Tech Trading can get you the techs you need when you want to get them, so building Marco Polo's Embassy is much better, and has other benefits besides tech trading.
 
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