Worst wonder?

[drewisfat]

Nothing more irritating than short dismissive responses from people who clearly did not read much of the recent discussion. If its TLDR for you that's fine, but then why reply?

Making me want to retreat back to the lurkosphere.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I dunno about the recent discussion, but in the early pages of this thread these guys went through some pretty detailed math to demonstrate that in a beeline run to the space race victory (the only victory where it would seem to have any effect at all) the SE is a detour that actually adds turns. I was intrigued that someone came up with a set of circumstances that does make sense for how it could provide an edge, but those circumstances are probably rare enough to call the SE very close to useless.

While grinding through the whole 25 pages would be a daunting task, there are some highlights.

 

[Qgqqqqq]

I read everything you wrote, but didn't have enough time to respond in full, so left it at that.

 

[lindsay40k]

I dunno about the recent discussion, but in the early pages of this thread these guys went through some pretty detailed math to demonstrate that in a beeline run to the space race victory (the only victory where it would seem to have any effect at all) the SE is a detour that actually adds turns. I was intrigued that someone came up with a set of circumstances that does make sense for how it could provide an edge, but those circumstances are probably rare enough to call the SE very close to useless.

While grinding through the whole 25 pages would be a daunting task, there are some highlights.

Fluff a late game war, steal Computers, build Internet, build SE, nab a Space Race victory from under their noses?

I'll let y'all know if it ever actually happens to me...

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Fluff a late game war, steal Computers, build Internet, build SE, nab a Space Race victory from under their noses?

I'll let y'all know if it ever actually happens to me...

Or get forced into wars you'd rather not be in to prevent culture/space race wins, then need to dig some sort of victory out of the ashes.

I thought my current game might go this way, but the situation is looking grimmer by the turn. At this point it might be more like 'nuke the Roman space ship just for spite and eventually lose on score anyway'. I don't think I have the production capability to hold off the Roman military and build the space ship, with or without the SE.

But as I said, something that is only useful under strange circumstances that I shouldn't have gotten myself into in the first place would be hard to defend as a great wonder.

 

[drewisfat]

Most people reroll or go for culture in isolated starts, so while its rare, it's not 0.1% rare if you play out your isolated games. Never said it was a great wonder, just that a wonder that can help rarely, but in a bleak situation is better to me than about half the wonders which are NEVER useful on the settings I play.

 

[Merovech]

on the settings I play.

...So, a wonder which is almost never useful at all, even on your settings, is too be rated higher than a wonder which is helpful in many situations on other, non-esoteric settings (not to say that your settings necessarily are unusual, just to clarify that these settings are not rare)? That shows an exceedingly narrow focus for a poll that very clearly asks a general question.

As for your comment about simple dismissal, if you want to see the math, it's right in this thread; there is no need for me to repeat it.

 

[drewisfat]

True if I include gigantic maps on prince level certain usually bad wonders might be worth it like SH, Versaille, ToA.

But still many wonders aren't efficient choices in any common setting:

Chicken Pizzz
Hagia Sophia
SoZ
Shwedagon
Pentagon
Notre Dame
SoL
Eiffel Tower
Angkor Wat
All the +2 per rel. bldg.

But maybe you play a 30 civ gigantic map, so the ones that do x per city could pay off. That still leaves:

CI
Hagia Sophia
SoZ
Schweddy

If you start counting their raw cultural purpose (and I think counting culture victories in a worst wonders poll is a bad idea) then SoZ and Schweddy definitely have some purpose.

But ChichenItza and Hagia Sophia AREN'T even worth it in culture victories, CI is too expensive for too little, always better alternatives. Hagia Sophia is in a tech line you wouldn't head down if going culture. SE has a potential purpose in Internet & indirect space race games. If no one is challenging that point anymore I don't see how it can lose to CI and HS.

 

[AdamCrock]

I just wonder - Can "Chicken Pizza" bonus be bombarded with catapults ? or diminished by a culture wrecking spy ? hmm I've never builded the darn thing to begin with - so I wouldn't know I consider this on topic since so many people consider Chicken pizza so awful (I prefer one with a mass quantity of onion myself xD) wonder its "why" I wonder about that wonder

 

[lymond]

Can "Chicken Pizza" bonus be bombarded with catapults ? or diminished by a culture wrecking spy ?

Yes and Yes

 

[AdamCrock]

Yes and Yes

I see - well it really does sounds like it's a useless wonder than. If it would be constant on the other hand it would be usefull imho at least.

 

[Tasunke]

If it was both constant AND immune to the typical Gunpowder bypass mechanic

 

[AdamCrock]

If it was both constant AND immune to the typical Gunpowder bypass mechanic

Oh no, it should be gunpowder bypassed - just like the walls are, (since the Europeans conquered the Meso-Americans after all). The spy and bombardment immunity should be there however imho but I guess it would be too much too ask for the game mechanics to handle Nevertheless for now it is among the most useless wonders.

 

[Tasunke]

Or maybe it could also reduce bombardment damage by an additional 25%

Now THAT would be interesting! Makin it worth buildin castles finally

 

[AdamCrock]

Or maybe it could also reduce bombardment damage by an additional 25%

Now THAT would be interesting! Makin it worth buildin castles finally

I agree ! but what about spies ?!? Well spies can bypass walls after all .... so well I guess It is okay ! I agree ! That would be worthwile wonder than ! ^^ Good thinking , nice idea for a mod addition ^^

 

[Fippy]

Notre Dame with no votes lol, a wonder coming with Engineering and costing 550h should give something better than +2 happy. Worst one for me, not even good for fail gold as AIs like Engi more.

 

[FuRRie]

Space elevator is a pure loss of turns, think I've only build it once

Chicken Pizza is pretty useless too, but I've build it once or tiwce in some strane defensive game we're it was actually semi-usefull.

 

[Mec AntiKythera]

Fluff a late game war, steal Computers, build Internet, build SE, nab a Space Race victory from under their noses?

I'll let y'all know if it ever actually happens to me...

Now that you mention it . . .


Let me, very carefully and somewhat reculantly, enter the discussion about the Space Elevator. I just played a game where it did indeed save some turns, not many probably, but certainly a few.

The background:
As Gandhi I roll a 2 gem (I never get these starts, but boy are they fun) start on an island with one AI present, Augustus Caesar. I decide to maximize the gems and went Oracle → Feudalism. My wandering warrior meanwhile pops three huts for Experience (I know, weird game) and ends up WoodIII after the uncontested barb bashing he did. I then wander up to Rome just in time so see 2 Archers and a Settler venture out of the city. I DoW the Roman scum and park WIII in a forest, which of course strikes fear into the heart of Augustus who recalls his expansion party. A few Longbows and Catapults later, Rome is under my control and Caesar's empire is no more. This leaves me with a big and beautiful island and zero trading partners. I had gone Feudalism with the idea of getting Augustus to capitulate but you know how that goes, Rome was pretty and I wanted it all to myself.


The Finish:
Elsewhere in the world, Brennus is taking vassals like an alcoholic orders drinks, quickly and without much introspection. With Mehmed, Willem, and Washington under his command and Ragnar as his War Monger Shared Religion buddy he goes WHEOOHRN and we know what his destination and my destiny must surely be.

I was obviously behind in tech, isolated as I was, making it logical to build the internet anticipating a Space Race tech frenzy. I want Laboratories so that puts me with Computers already researched knowing that Brennus, with his large and experienced army and his three vassals will be visiting soon. Knowing that I want to 1) defend my cities and 2) win the Space Race quickly (Brennus was going Culture) teching Robotics was the most attractive option, I'm killing two birds with one stone.

Why waste hammers on the SE when I needed to build an army immediately? Because my collection of GP that I intended to use for GA's during the Space Race included two GE's. This means I had one for a Golden Age and one for the Space Elevator. I had a decent Ironworks city and built the elevator in about 5 turns thanks to the GE. By the way, Mining Inc and Creative Constructions were founded long ago ruling out that possible use for the GE.

After eliminating the sizable invading stacks I returned to building SS parts aided by the 50% bonus. While not a typical game it seems to me that the SE was, in this case, not useless and did speed up the victory as I finished my last two parts within one turn of each other with each city benefiting from the SE bonus.

I should mention that Brennus made the mistake of building the Manhattan Project thus allowing me to apply Physics to the problem of his third city that was quickly approaching Legandary status. He really should have built the SDI immediately following Manhattan, let that be his lesson.

I must say it was one of the funnest games, particularly the start and the finish, I have played in some time. A real thriller with a guest role for the SE.

 

[Funky]

Hehe, sounds like an interesting game you had there, Mec AntiKythera. Now prepare to get flamed from all sides for your frivolous suggestion that the SE may actually be useful in some rare games.

 

[topsecret]

Now prepare to get flamed from all sides for your frivolous suggestion that the SE may actually be useful in some rare games.

The entire theme of this whole thread...