Worst wonder?

[Jastrow]

After eliminating the sizable invading stacks I returned to building SS parts aided by the 50% bonus. While not a typical game it seems to me that the SE was, in this case, not useless and did speed up the victory as I finished my last two parts within one turn of each other with each city benefiting from the SE bonus.

How many turns did the 50% bonus actually save you? What was the last part to finish, and how many turns did it take to build it? Did the city have a factory? Forge? lab? Power? Beuracracy? IW?

50% bonus sounds like a lot, but when you actually calculate it, you often find that it save exactly 1 or 2 turns on the actual build time of the ship.

 

[Tasunke]

perhaps the SE itself should just be boosted?

 

[Doshin]

You're all wrong. The worst wonder in the game is the Red Cross.

Thread killed.

 

[Ataxerxes]

perhaps the SE itself should just be boosted?

Actually, a good boost would be to put the techs needed for SE back to where it was in vanilla Civ4 or a similar location. It was a pretty good wonder in vanilla and highly useful for a serious space race.

Doshin brings up a good question. Is the Red Cross pretty useless even though it is a national wonder? By the time the Red Cross comes up even most peacemongers should have a supermedic. I can't remember building it for any reason other than "I'm wrapping up the game, just build any old thing."

 

[Tasunke]

well, perhaps Red Cross should be more easily built but ... utility? I'd think having 2exp March promo on any given unit (in the city) would be kind of nice.

Now ... perhaps it would be more useful if it affected *every* city

 

[bestbrian]

You're all wrong. The worst wonder in the game is the Red Cross.

Thread killed.

Um, Red Cross is a National Wonder. Duh.

 

[drewisfat]

How many turns did the 50% bonus actually save you? What was the last part to finish, and how many turns did it take to build it? Did the city have a factory? Forge? lab? Power? Beuracracy? IW?

50% bonus sounds like a lot, but when you actually calculate it, you often find that it save exactly 1 or 2 turns on the actual build time of the ship.

The fact that SE could only possibly save a few turns makes it seem really weak, until you start trying to apply that standard to other wonders.

The Cristo Redentor, even under the rare conditions in which it's worth building, never saves you more than a handful of turns from victory. Does anyone disagree? Does that make it the worst wonder?

The vast majority of wonders only save you a few turns, and only in rare circumstances. The only difference is that the SE comes quite late and it's effect can be easily evaluated, whereas no one knows how many turns Notre Dame ultimately saved or hurt them.

 

[Jastrow]

Yes, but there is a difference... the 1 or 2 turns I am talking about here are how many turns were saved AFTER the opertunity costs were already paid. The second part of the analisis is how many turns did paying those cost. In most cases, for the SE, that costs is more than those two turns.

CR as an example, in situations where I need it, tends to save me about 2 or 3 turns on space, but that is pure savings after having already payed the opertunity costs of getting it. CR however has other value... For example, it helps diplo to thte point that it can make or break some diplo attemtps.

The difference is that SE requires you to do two things which competes with a good space date:

1-Tech robotics.
2-Divert production at a time it is going directly into your end date.

In some ways, the discussion of how good or bad the SE is is related to the question of how good or bad robotics is. IF there is no other reason to tech robotics, than the time "wasted" teching it is always more than the turns saved.

So an important question is, is there ever a good reason to tech robotics apart from the SE??

I frankly do not get involved in enough late game war situations to have an clear opinion on that. Others here vehemently argue there is always a better millitary alternative. But to me that is the real open question, because teching robotics FOR the SE, is always going to cost you more turns than you gain...

In the example with a GE to build it, and the internet, then the opertunity costs goes way down... One need to asses now if the opertunity costs to build it was more or less than the 1 or 2 turns is saved. That is the question I want to try and build to. I dont know the answer in this case, which is why I am asking.

 

[El_Machinae]

I've never really been glad I developed robotics, to be honest. It's never felt like a 'good' idea.

 

[Ataxerxes]

The fact that SE could only possibly save a few turns makes it seem really weak, until you start trying to apply that standard to other wonders.

The Cristo Redentor, even under the rare conditions in which it's worth building, never saves you more than a handful of turns from victory. Does anyone disagree? Does that make it the worst wonder?

The vast majority of wonders only save you a few turns, and only in rare circumstances. The only difference is that the SE comes quite late and it's effect can be easily evaluated, whereas no one knows how many turns Notre Dame ultimately saved or hurt them.

Cristo is a strong wonder. If it came earlier it would be overpowered. It will generally save only a turn or two if you don't try to maximize your use of it. However, with Cristo you can now do frequent swaps to whatever is the best civic that turn. Heck, even Serfdom finds use if you have Cristo. If you're building up a fast army you just switch into Vassalage and Theocracy for 2 turns. You can rush buy and still run Representation 90% of the time.

Some people use Cristo to save the game for them. You can combine Cristo with espionage to screw AI-AI relations. If you think Cristo isn't worth building I suggest you try to use it to potential once in a tough game with an AI bloc opposing you. It's one of the few wonders capable of rescuing a game. It isn't quite up to AP cheese but nothing is.

In the vast majority of cases, pursuing SE is going to cost you turns. Most wonders will consistently give you something. Sometimes the opportunity cost makes them not worth building, true.

I don't think anyone is arguing Notre Dame is a strong wonder. It's a weak wonder and generally not worth it. I very seldom build it. But like all wonders it has times when it's useful.

 

[drewisfat]

Robotics is never worth teching yourself.

Discussion assumes you beeline Internet and get robotics from AI. If you haven't started towards space yet (because youre small and had to expend a lot to deny culture/space) then it would be worth it to build the SE first. In most situations I'd estimate this saves 2-3 turns. In ideal usage with a spare GE and not having built any parts yet, it might save you 4-5 turns.

That's pretty decent if you compare to how many turns other wonders might save. The issue is that the situation itself is quite rare. However, I don't see how that doesn't trump wonders like CI and hagia that never payoff. Plus when it does payoff its usually in really close/hard games.

 

[rah]

I don't see how that doesn't trump wonders like CI and hagia that never payoff.

The only reason people are saying it doesn't is because of the fail gold potential.

 

[Merovech]

Hagia can also payoff when one wants to expand into a heavily jungled era during the Middle Ages.

 

[lymond]

Hagia can also payoff when one wants to expand into a heavily jungled era during the Middle Ages.

Just use those hammers on more workers

 

[Merovech]

Just use those hammers on more workers

It's rare when the math works out to favor the Hagia Sophia, but it does happen, if I recall correctly. Also, capturing the Hagia Sophia is quite nice, in my opinion, even if its not worth its opportunity cost. This is also true for the Space Elevator, but how often does one capture the Space Elevator when going for a Space Race victory anyway? I'm guessing so rarely as to be almost non-existent.

 

[Tasunke]

Hmm ... Red Cross may indeed be the most worthless 'national' wonder ...

but damn, if it was a Wonder, it might actually be useful

( heroic epic + West Point + Red Cross )

 

[Mec AntiKythera]

Hehe, sounds like an interesting game you had there, Mec AntiKythera. Now prepare to get flamed from all sides for your frivolous suggestion that the SE may actually be useful in some rare games.

I was about to order some plywood to cover my windows but it looks like the storm changed course.

By the way, does the discussion of worst wonder include the benefit of denying the AI the wonder, or not? I'd rather deny the AI the SE, they are never going to tech logically to Space anyway, than the HS or ND.

 

[Ataxerxes]

I was about to order some plywood to cover my windows but it looks like the storm changed course.

By the way, does the discussion of worst wonder include the benefit of denying the AI the wonder, or not? I'd rather deny the AI the SE, they are never going to tech logically to Space anyway, than the HS or ND.

It has limited value as a denial wonder. AI will often pursue it to the AI's detriment. Although considering the non-focused way the AI goes about it, it might have limited value as a denial wonder. Actually, I think you've outlasted the others on the debate who still think you're wrong (like me). We don't have your staying power.

Denial value probably should be considered. That's one of the reasons Sistine is a top wonder. If an AI gets Sistine, it can grab a culture victory a lot faster than space and if your neighbor gets it that's additional pain (I suppose he/she/it become war target #1A). That's one thing that keeps SoZ from being the worst wonder. If the AI you're fighting has it . . . For most of the others, it's simply a value to them the same it would be to you. Even with denial value, Chicken Pizza is pretty lame.

One problem with the worst wonder is we all probably have several wonders we nearly never build. For me it's Zeus, Space Elevator, Chichen Itza, 3 Gorges (talk about late!), Angor Wat, Temple of Artemis (I always want something else more). I admit to building Eiffel for some reason (maybe I like the cinematics) and nearly never building Shwedagon Paya (which can be good).

 

[King Pluto]

The Cristo Redentor, even under the rare conditions in which it's worth building, never saves you more than a handful of turns from victory. Does anyone disagree? Does that make it the worst wonder?

In my most recent Immortal game, I was pushing for a space-race victory while WVO was going for culture. I abused the hell out of Cristo Redentor to swap into civics for one turn, then have WVO swap civics for 2-3 turns of anarchy, delaying his culture cities long enough to win. At one point I was easily 50 turns from winning and his worst city was at ~30 turns from Legendary.

I'm not prepared to do a comparison of SE vs CR, but CR definitely has the use of screwing AIs as well as helping the human save on anarchy.

 

[Mec AntiKythera]

Actually, I think you've outlasted the others on the debate who still think you're wrong (like me). We don't have your staying power.

Well, to be fair, I didn't enter the debate until it was almost over and am not actually arguing that it isn't the worst wonder. Which is to say I took the bus for 3/4 of the race and walked over the finish while on my way to get an ice cream with the finish just being on the way, if you see what I mean.

As far as denial value goes, since you made some good points there I will return to the dead horse--despite the odor--to make the observation that an AI making a disorganized Space Race run without the SE is still slower than an AI making a disorganized run with the SE. I don't think the AI make a decision to tech to Robotics for the SE, I assume it just ends up there, kind of like I did recently. I doubt it slows the AI down any, but that is based entirely on assumption. So I could easily be wrong here.

Thanks for your thoughts.

One problem with the worst wonder is we all probably have several wonders we nearly never build. For me it's Zeus, Space Elevator, Chichen Itza, 3 Gorges (talk about late!), Angor Wat, Temple of Artemis (I always want something else more). I admit to building Eiffel for some reason (maybe I like the cinematics) and nearly never building Shwedagon Paya (which can be good).

True. Angor Wat is one I will build, being first to Philo is common and if I have stone I sometimes can't help myself. Three Gorges is a "I used to build that" wonder while Temple of Artemis is a "I still want to build that sometime" wonder. I dream of a coastal capital with GLH and ToA but have yet to come close to living this particular dream. Zeus I never get to, Paya I've have built once (had gold and could not risk the diplo problem of running a religion). Eiffel I like, churn that out quickly in IW city and shore up borders everywhere, also newly acquired cities . . .